WAP Powder

Ankeny · February 13, 2000, 10:56 PM

I have two unopened one pound jugs of WAP. I figured I would go to Winchester's Web site and get some loading data, but the darn stuff is discontinued.

Well I need loading data for a .45 auto so I can use the powder up. Anyone have one of the old Winchester freebie manuals laying around?

Also, why was the powder discontinued and is it even worth bothering with?

**Bud Helms** · February 14, 2000, 12:06 AM

Ankeny,

Duh. 'Can't seem to dig up a manual with that one in it.

Working ....

Ankeny · February 14, 2000, 12:21 AM

Found some data. Just curious, anyone know why Winchester pulled the powder? Also, I see Hornady is offering "low flash" loaded ammunition. Any guesses as to what they are using for powder? Maybe WAP, VV...?

Ricciardelli · February 14, 2000, 01:11 AM

http://www.again.net/~steve/page8a.htm

ML · February 14, 2000, 05:14 AM

Ankeny

I was also disappointed to find that Winchester had discontiuned WAP as I had settled on it as my powder of choice in 9mm. I have one of the old Winchester reloading freebees if you need some info. I am about to break into my last pound of WAP.

Paul B. · February 14, 2000, 01:16 PM

I have the data you need. E-mail me and I'll pass it on. let me know what bullet weights you plan on using. Maybe, if I'm lucky, I can get my scanner to work.

The "Big W" discontinued about 4 or 5 powders, some of which had only been on the market a short while. They dropped a bunch of rifle rounds as well. At least the rifle stuff will be made on a seasonal basis.
The one powder I use a lot is WMR. I don't think it has been out very long. The 13th ed. of the Winchester booklet does not carry it. Copywrite 1993. 14th ed. has it, copywrite 1994 as does the latest 15 ed. Now it's gone. That stuff is a miracle worker in my .300 Win Mag. Fortunately, I found 12 pounds for sale at a very reduced price. Still have about 11 left.

I think it has to do with the "bean counters". Back in the early 80's, I used a lot of Hodgdens H-205. My 06 loved it. Hodgden's discontinued it. I went to the NRA convention in Phoenix in 1982 and asked them why they had dropped it. This is a direct quote. "Frankly, the numbers weren't there." In plain English, they were not selling what they felt was a sufficient amount to justify continuing production. The powder hadn't been out more than about three years. They never gave it a chance to catch on. Reloaders are a conservative lot. They're slow to change and try new stuff. The same thing happened to RL-7, but at least we got that one back.
It seems to be the American way, that if immediate profits do not show up yesterday, they drop the product. Satisfying the shareholders is the bottom line.
Rant mode is off.
Paul B.

Ricciardelli · February 14, 2000, 04:07 PM

Paul,

Hummm....last time I checked, Winchester, Remington, Hodgdon, Intel, IBM, GM, Ford, Sony, Nikon, Denon, et al, were in business to make money.

If a product doesn't show a profit it should be dropped from the line. When older, less popular and less useful items are dropped, the result is something "new". And "new" generally indicates "improved". Not always...but generally.

Three years is a long time to market an item without a profitable return! However, I'm sure that Olin would be more than happy to sell you all the remaining stock of discontinued powders in their inventory (as would the wholesalers and retailers), as well as the formulae and manufacturing machines required to continue to produce a non-viable product.

**Bud Helms** · February 15, 2000, 06:03 AM

Good Heavens! All their remaining stock of discontinued powders! Haaaaaaa!

That sounds like a, "Be careful what you wish for."

I can see the UPS dump truck pulling into the front yard now ... let's see, what did I get for that $200 I sent to Hodgdon??? OMIGOD!

[This message has been edited by sensop (edited February 15, 2000).]

Paul B. · February 16, 2000, 03:21 AM

Ricciardelli. When you say that a business is in business to make money, I wholeheartedly agree. But when businnesses dump products that are not losing money, but just not making enough, this ticks me off no end. For example, Olin dumped both Weaver scopes and Winchester rifles. They were making a profit on the sales. It was not a big enough profit. This seems to be a problem with all American businesses. I saw a program about where they make some kind of discovery. What do they do with it? If an immediate profit cannot be made yesterday, they sell it to the Japanese who play with it for years until they can make a profit selling it back to us at exhorbitant prices. Superconducters are just one product. We let them have it and they're reaping the fortune. Somehow this does not seem right to me.
Back to discontinued powders. RL-7 had a small but loyal following among benchresters and varmint shooters using rounds like the .222 Rem., and similar rounds. Turns out the powder was good for cast bullet shooting as well. Well enough people raised enough hell that Hercules (now Alliant) brought it back, and it sells well.
You know? Us reloaders are a funny lot. We have pet loads, and pet rifles , and pet powders as well. Maybe there are too many powders on the market. I could get along real well with WW-231 or Bullseye, Unique, WW-296, WW-748 and 760, and IMR 4350 and WMR. Anything else would be superflous. But I like to try new powders when they come out. I think most reloaders settle on X gr. of H-4831 in their .270 Win. with a 130 gr. bullet, their dies are no longer re-adjusted and "Old Betsy" shoots just fine, thank you very much.
The "Big W" dropped a lot of ammo as well. There must be a jillion 7x57s out there. You mean to tell me people don't shoot them any more???? I can't quite believe that one.
Oh they've dropped them from their catalog, but they still make limited "seasonal" runs. All you have to do is figure out when, and then special order the ammo you want through your dealer.
How many .458s are in use? Dropped from the line. Thank's "Big W." Now I have to make my wildcat ammo from a different brand, making my hard won reloading data semi-useless.
Oh well. rant mode off.
Paul B.

Ricciardelli · February 16, 2000, 11:48 AM

Paul,

Do you listen to music? If so, on what media is it contained? 78 rpm shellacs? 45 singles? 33-1/3 albums? 8-tracks? Cassettes? DAT? CD? Audio DVD? MP3?

Do you watch TV? Are you still watching that 10" RCA B&W console of the late 1940's?

Are you still driving the first car you ever owned?

How much profit is "enough profit"? If you are manufacturing and marketing two products which cost $1 to make; and both products sell for $5; but you only sell 500,000 of one and 3,000,000 of the other, what are you going to do? You're going to convert the manufacturing process to produce the product that sells 3,000,000. you're going to streamline your delivery system for that product. You're going to eliminate the extra cost involved in duplicating the packaging. You will no longer require separate storage facilities. You will no longer have to print advertisements for the samller profit item. And the list goes on...and on... All the monies saved from the removal of the less popular item are all of a sudden realized as an increase in profit of the more popular item...probably the equivalent of 20% more profit.

We all have our favorite something or another. My favorite car is a Bronco...but Ford stopped making them in 1995. So I haven't purchased a new car since then. And I don't look forward to the day when my 1995 will have to be replaced.

I have had my favorite powders, also. And they have been discontinued, also. But that's more than half the fun of reloading. Finding something different and seeing if it will work to the point of filling your expectations.

For the guy who shoots 3 factory loads a year, a box of 20 will last him 7 years. Let's say he has been shooting a .345x567 for the past 20 years. He has 60 pieces of empty brass lying around. The .345x567 cannot be formed from any other brass, and there is absolutely no supply available of either brass or loaded ammo. What does he do? He starts reloading. Say he gets 10 loads out of a piece of brass before it is useless...he can stretch those 60 pieces of brass to last hime the next 200 years!

As for your favorite powder? You load 3.5 grains of powder in a case. You get 2000 loads out of a pound of powder. You bought an 8 pound caddy. That's 16,000 rounds from just that one container. Let's say you shoot 100 rounds a week. You are set for the next 160 weeks (or 3 years). Sometime during that 3 years I am sure it is possible to find another load which equals or even excells your "favorite" load, and thereby becomes your new favorite load.

**Bud Helms** · February 17, 2000, 07:03 AM

Lesse, ... 16,000 rounds, ...that could be a barrel or two.

WESHOOT2 · February 17, 2000, 08:21 AM

WAP, IMO, is the best .355-bore powder.

Not bad in 40, either.

If you folks are searching for alternatives try Vihtavuori 3N37 and Alliant Power Pistol.

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"

February 13, 2000, 10:56 PM	#1
Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 1998 Location: Shoshoni, WY USA Posts: 556	I have two unopened one pound jugs of WAP. I figured I would go to Winchester's Web site and get some loading data, but the darn stuff is discontinued. Well I need loading data for a .45 auto so I can use the powder up. Anyone have one of the old Winchester freebie manuals laying around? Also, why was the powder discontinued and is it even worth bothering with?

February 14, 2000, 12:06 AM	#2
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Ankeny, Duh. 'Can't seem to dig up a manual with that one in it. Working ....

February 14, 2000, 12:21 AM	#3
Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 1998 Location: Shoshoni, WY USA Posts: 556	Found some data. Just curious, anyone know why Winchester pulled the powder? Also, I see Hornady is offering "low flash" loaded ammunition. Any guesses as to what they are using for powder? Maybe WAP, VV...?

February 14, 2000, 01:11 AM	#4
Ricciardelli Member Join Date: January 26, 2000 Posts: 57	http://www.again.net/~steve/page8a.htm

February 14, 2000, 05:14 AM	#5
ML Member Join Date: December 14, 1999 Posts: 50	Ankeny I was also disappointed to find that Winchester had discontiuned WAP as I had settled on it as my powder of choice in 9mm. I have one of the old Winchester reloading freebees if you need some info. I am about to break into my last pound of WAP.

February 14, 2000, 01:16 PM	#6
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	I have the data you need. E-mail me and I'll pass it on. let me know what bullet weights you plan on using. Maybe, if I'm lucky, I can get my scanner to work. The "Big W" discontinued about 4 or 5 powders, some of which had only been on the market a short while. They dropped a bunch of rifle rounds as well. At least the rifle stuff will be made on a seasonal basis. The one powder I use a lot is WMR. I don't think it has been out very long. The 13th ed. of the Winchester booklet does not carry it. Copywrite 1993. 14th ed. has it, copywrite 1994 as does the latest 15 ed. Now it's gone. That stuff is a miracle worker in my .300 Win Mag. Fortunately, I found 12 pounds for sale at a very reduced price. Still have about 11 left. I think it has to do with the "bean counters". Back in the early 80's, I used a lot of Hodgdens H-205. My 06 loved it. Hodgden's discontinued it. I went to the NRA convention in Phoenix in 1982 and asked them why they had dropped it. This is a direct quote. "Frankly, the numbers weren't there." In plain English, they were not selling what they felt was a sufficient amount to justify continuing production. The powder hadn't been out more than about three years. They never gave it a chance to catch on. Reloaders are a conservative lot. They're slow to change and try new stuff. The same thing happened to RL-7, but at least we got that one back. It seems to be the American way, that if immediate profits do not show up yesterday, they drop the product. Satisfying the shareholders is the bottom line. Rant mode is off. Paul B.

February 14, 2000, 04:07 PM	#7
Ricciardelli Member Join Date: January 26, 2000 Posts: 57	Paul, Hummm....last time I checked, Winchester, Remington, Hodgdon, Intel, IBM, GM, Ford, Sony, Nikon, Denon, et al, were in business to make money. If a product doesn't show a profit it should be dropped from the line. When older, less popular and less useful items are dropped, the result is something "new". And "new" generally indicates "improved". Not always...but generally. Three years is a long time to market an item without a profitable return! However, I'm sure that Olin would be more than happy to sell you all the remaining stock of discontinued powders in their inventory (as would the wholesalers and retailers), as well as the formulae and manufacturing machines required to continue to produce a non-viable product.

February 15, 2000, 06:03 AM	#8
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Good Heavens! All their remaining stock of discontinued powders! Haaaaaaa! That sounds like a, "Be careful what you wish for." I can see the UPS dump truck pulling into the front yard now ... let's see, what did I get for that $200 I sent to Hodgdon??? OMIGOD! [This message has been edited by sensop (edited February 15, 2000).]

February 16, 2000, 03:21 AM	#9
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Ricciardelli. When you say that a business is in business to make money, I wholeheartedly agree. But when businnesses dump products that are not losing money, but just not making enough, this ticks me off no end. For example, Olin dumped both Weaver scopes and Winchester rifles. They were making a profit on the sales. It was not a big enough profit. This seems to be a problem with all American businesses. I saw a program about where they make some kind of discovery. What do they do with it? If an immediate profit cannot be made yesterday, they sell it to the Japanese who play with it for years until they can make a profit selling it back to us at exhorbitant prices. Superconducters are just one product. We let them have it and they're reaping the fortune. Somehow this does not seem right to me. Back to discontinued powders. RL-7 had a small but loyal following among benchresters and varmint shooters using rounds like the .222 Rem., and similar rounds. Turns out the powder was good for cast bullet shooting as well. Well enough people raised enough hell that Hercules (now Alliant) brought it back, and it sells well. You know? Us reloaders are a funny lot. We have pet loads, and pet rifles , and pet powders as well. Maybe there are too many powders on the market. I could get along real well with WW-231 or Bullseye, Unique, WW-296, WW-748 and 760, and IMR 4350 and WMR. Anything else would be superflous. But I like to try new powders when they come out. I think most reloaders settle on X gr. of H-4831 in their .270 Win. with a 130 gr. bullet, their dies are no longer re-adjusted and "Old Betsy" shoots just fine, thank you very much. The "Big W" dropped a lot of ammo as well. There must be a jillion 7x57s out there. You mean to tell me people don't shoot them any more???? I can't quite believe that one. Oh they've dropped them from their catalog, but they still make limited "seasonal" runs. All you have to do is figure out when, and then special order the ammo you want through your dealer. How many .458s are in use? Dropped from the line. Thank's "Big W." Now I have to make my wildcat ammo from a different brand, making my hard won reloading data semi-useless. Oh well. rant mode off. Paul B.

February 16, 2000, 11:48 AM	#10
Ricciardelli Member Join Date: January 26, 2000 Posts: 57	Paul, Do you listen to music? If so, on what media is it contained? 78 rpm shellacs? 45 singles? 33-1/3 albums? 8-tracks? Cassettes? DAT? CD? Audio DVD? MP3? Do you watch TV? Are you still watching that 10" RCA B&W console of the late 1940's? Are you still driving the first car you ever owned? How much profit is "enough profit"? If you are manufacturing and marketing two products which cost $1 to make; and both products sell for $5; but you only sell 500,000 of one and 3,000,000 of the other, what are you going to do? You're going to convert the manufacturing process to produce the product that sells 3,000,000. you're going to streamline your delivery system for that product. You're going to eliminate the extra cost involved in duplicating the packaging. You will no longer require separate storage facilities. You will no longer have to print advertisements for the samller profit item. And the list goes on...and on... All the monies saved from the removal of the less popular item are all of a sudden realized as an increase in profit of the more popular item...probably the equivalent of 20% more profit. We all have our favorite something or another. My favorite car is a Bronco...but Ford stopped making them in 1995. So I haven't purchased a new car since then. And I don't look forward to the day when my 1995 will have to be replaced. I have had my favorite powders, also. And they have been discontinued, also. But that's more than half the fun of reloading. Finding something different and seeing if it will work to the point of filling your expectations. For the guy who shoots 3 factory loads a year, a box of 20 will last him 7 years. Let's say he has been shooting a .345x567 for the past 20 years. He has 60 pieces of empty brass lying around. The .345x567 cannot be formed from any other brass, and there is absolutely no supply available of either brass or loaded ammo. What does he do? He starts reloading. Say he gets 10 loads out of a piece of brass before it is useless...he can stretch those 60 pieces of brass to last hime the next 200 years! As for your favorite powder? You load 3.5 grains of powder in a case. You get 2000 loads out of a pound of powder. You bought an 8 pound caddy. That's 16,000 rounds from just that one container. Let's say you shoot 100 rounds a week. You are set for the next 160 weeks (or 3 years). Sometime during that 3 years I am sure it is possible to find another load which equals or even excells your "favorite" load, and thereby becomes your new favorite load.

February 17, 2000, 07:03 AM	#11
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Lesse, ... 16,000 rounds, ...that could be a barrel or two.

February 17, 2000, 08:21 AM	#12
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	WAP, IMO, is the best .355-bore powder. Not bad in 40, either. If you folks are searching for alternatives try Vihtavuori 3N37 and Alliant Power Pistol. ------------------ "All my ammo is factory ammo"