Point of impact off?

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Koda94

Lastly, I didn't name the mfg on purpose. I have a dilemma with them with a very long history of warranty returns for this one purchase and don't know what to do here as I feel I am literally at my ropes end and they will tell me to take a hike at this point because this one is literally a complete warranty replacement. Ethically I want to respect the company and offer them a chance to fix, yet again, before I gave any bad reviews. This is a high end pistol I paid good money for but I am at their mercy at this point. I know for a fact its not my shooting technique because the prior one was virtually the same model and its sight in was perfect zero (when it ran). What would you do?

I don't see the dilemma. You could have told us the manufacturer without mentioning all the other issues and giving us a "bad review" and all we would have known was pistol X from company Y may have had a shorter than desired front sight or some other issue that is hardly abnormal in the world of firearms. Of course that went out the window with this last post.

But more to the point, how does ethics factor into making factual statements? You bought a pistol that is currently exhibiting this phenomenon. How is stating the brand and model a breach of ethics in that circumstance? I've had issues with plenty of manufacturers and I have no issue discussing them, as well as the final solution that resulted.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

But more to the point, how does ethics factor into making factual statements? You bought a pistol that is currently exhibiting this phenomenon. How is stating the brand and model a breach of ethics in that circumstance?

I'm worried after all Ive been thru with them they wont honor their warranty with me anymore. My hunch is they read forums, Ive heard anyways. This would be return #5 I think over 2 years of returns and lengthy negotiating and I don't feel they believe me anymore. Ive had nothing but problems with their product and NEVER had a reliable pistol the whole time.

[TunnelRat]

That's sad then, and frankly a company like that deserves to be called out. I get the situation you're in and hopefully it does get resolved.

I've had issues with pistols that cost me $300, and I've had issues with pistols that cost me $1200. I don't harbor ill will if the company makes an honest attempt to fix the problem and admits when there is a problem.

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I've had issues with pistols that cost me $300, and I've had issues with pistols that cost me $1200. I don't harbor ill will if the company makes an honest attempt to fix the problem and admits when there is a problem.

same ...and therein lies my dilemma. 2 years since investing in their product and returns and negotiating when I didn't feel I should have to plead a case so badly but then they honor my request in the end with a replacement, and now this. How long should it take? I paid $1489 for it brand new.
I'm listening to the advice in this thread closely for anything I can do to make darn certain its not me, but I know for a darn fact my shooting is good (their first pistol was a tack driver when it ran).

[jmr40]

Before you do anything back up and shoot it at longer ranges. I'm betting the POI is much closer to POA at 15-25 yards than 7. But either way at least you'll know before you start making changes.

[Metric]

IMO, the only time to hold back on discussing a company name on a forum like this is when the company is actively trying to solve a problem, but it is not yet solved. If they are actively trying to help, just wait and see what happens, because the outcome is still very uncertain. If they are dragging their feet over a long period of time, then it no longer counts -- the quality of service is itself a topic of interest.

[tipoc]

Earlier 44 amp made this point:

The sight and target alignment where the top edge of the front sight (level with the top edge of the rear sight) is held in the center of the target is called "Center hold" (is that what you are calling "dead hold?) The other common sight picture is with the sights lined up and the bottom of the bullseye is put on top of the front sight. This is called the "6 o'clock" hold,

The point here is that sight pictures actually have formal and proper names that come to us from decades of shooting. That's why when you said "dead hold" no one knows what that means other than you.

The most common are the 6 o'clock hold, the center hold and the frame hold (also referred as the combat hold by some).

Here's a link to a piece that shows these and explains them some. Rifle sights are shown but you'll get the idea.

http://www.odcmp.org/0907/default.as...U_SIGHTPICTURE

Here also is a link to a thread from another forum where a fella had a similar issue that you have and had to do some figuring.

https://www.migunowners.org/forum/sh...bat-Sights-etc

tipoc

[dahermit]

Brand new 1911, first time firing it and the POI is way off for me. Sights are fixed (non-adjustable) combat sights.

I could be wrong, but I don't know of any 1911's with a "fixed" rear sight. Are you sure the rear sight is not drift adjustable?

[44 AMP]

Actually, I had thought of the rear sight but its custom made by the manufacturer and I have no way to compare it... let alone measure it. I can compare it to my other commander slide and its taller (on the new gun) but the sights are different kinds between guns including the rears so I don't know how to compare.

Compare the sights by eye, and measure their height, from the slide top to the top edge of the blade. Use a caliper if possible. The measurement doesn't have to be super precise, a couple thousandths of an inch don't matter, a couple of tenths of an inch absolutely do matter.

Lets go back to basics for an illustration. Take a pencil or ruler, hold it somewhere near the middle. Call that the front sight. Pick one end, call it the rear sight , the other end is your bullet point of impact.

Raise the "rear sight end". Where does the "point of impact" end go? It goes DOWN. Sight height is a calculated relationship, between front and rear, and desired point of impact Too high a rear sight and the pistol will shoot low. Too low, it will shoot high.

Check with the maker and find out what range the gun is factory zeroed at. Shoot it at that range and see what happens. If the point of impact (with the correct ammo) is off at that distance (usually 25yds), THEN you MAY have a warranty problem.

The "kind" of sight, meaning the style of the sight really doesn't matter as much as the height of the sight. Custom made or production item, "low profile", melted, wide notch, U-notch, V-Notch Square notch, dots or not, doesn't matter, in this case. What matters is the relationship between the heights of the front and rear sight with each other, and the desired point of impact at the desired range.

You bought a gun with sights you cannot adjust. You are not getting the results you want at a distance significantly different from the distance the factory sights are zeroed for. Is it the maker's responsibility to fix this?

Perhaps. Factories have been known to put the wrong height sight on guns, as well a make all kinds of other mistakes. You need to figure out where the mistake is being made, in their product, or in your expectations of what it should do. Might be one or the other, or both together, I can't really tell from here.

If your other 1911s do what you want them to do, and the (rear) sight height is different from the gun that shoots low, that should tell you something.

[Koda94]

44amp, all good advice. Thats what im looking into before deciding what action to take...

[tipoc]

Two other points.

Point One:

In the first post the shooter says he was shooting at a 3" target at 3 yards and a 8" target at 7 yards.

Shooting at a target at 3 yards will not tell you much about the accuracy of the gun and shooter. I't simply too close. It's useful for some self defense drills but not at all for accurate shooting.

The 8" target is too large for 7 yards. This is a target that is intended for 25 yards and beyond aimed fire. In practice what the shooter ends up aiming at is the 1" red dot in the middle if they are trying to be accurate, and that's a waste of a good shoot-n-see. The only use of a target that large at such a close distance is for rapid fire one and two handed drills where the goal is to keep all shots in the black.

What the op can do is to set a 3" bull at 10 yards and aim and shoot at that. This will tell you more about the gun, the ammo and your shooting than either of the options the op used. It will also allow the shooter to get a better idea of the sight picture the sights are set for.

Remember: aim small, miss small.

Point Two:

When a gun sights are set for 25 yards, which most 5" barreled fixed sight 1911's are, the 230 gr. bullet will have a mid range trajectory of .400" of an inch high. Bullets travel in an arc. This means that a gun set to have the bullet hit the center of the target at 25 yards at 12.5 yards the bullet will be less than half an inch higher than the bullseye. There is a difference between the straight line from the sights to the target and the flight of the bullet as the bullet travels in an arc. This is what Koda94 is referring as the "intersect points" of the bullets flight and is a concerning factor for him.

What does this mean in practical terms? Well it ranges from nothing to not much at all. A person can worry that if the sights are set for 25 yards won't I be shooting 2 or 3" low at 10 yards? No you won't because the the difference is less and half an inch. You can prove this for yourself easily.

That .400" is less than you will normally see from differences in brands of ammo from many guns. It's demonstrably less than the differences in bullet weights and their point of impact. It's also much smaller than most groups.

tipoc

[Koda94]

So if the mid range of a 25yd zero is only .400" then that validates that my sights are off. The distances i wused in my targets the POI would be practically on bullseye.

[tipoc]

Actually, I had thought of the rear sight but its custom made by the manufacturer and I have no way to compare it... let alone measure it. I can compare it to my other commander slide and its taller (on the new gun) but the sights are different kinds between guns including the rears so I don't know how to compare.

Your gunsmith, or any machinist, will be able to measure this. Your gunsmith can readily compare it to other fixed sight 1911s. He can also tell you if the sights are centered on the slide. Your concern was for both windage and elevation. The rear sight can be drifted for the windage.

tipoc

[tipoc]

So if the mid range of a 25yd zero is only .400" then that validates that my sights are off. The distances i wused in my targets the POI would be practically on bullseye.

Maybe. It should be about right. But in the pics you show, especially in the 8" target shot at 7 yards it looks like you are about 2" low and 2" to the left from the center of the group to the center of the target, with what looks like a bit less for the 3 yard group. That's a radical difference at such a close range.

BTW did you measure the groups and the distance from the center of the group to the point of aim?

Again it seems a radical difference for such a close range. 3 yards is one long step away and 7 yards 3 steps away from the muzzle. If the point of aim was the center of the target then the sights would be visibly off to the naked eye. No need to measure you'd see them as off.

However that distance could be accounted for by shooter error.

A pic of the sights would help.

Go to the range and try a 3" bull at 10 yards. Also ask the range officer or another capable shooter to try the gun. Small bull at 7 yards or 10 and see what happens.

tipoc

[elsancudo]

If there is any way to clamp it down thoroughly on an immovable table, you can sight it with one shot. Clamp it down, fire at target, then adjust sights with a sight pusher until they line up on that one bullet hole.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by elsancudo

If there is any way to clamp it down thoroughly on an immovable table, you can sight it with one shot. Clamp it down, fire at target, then adjust sights with a sight pusher until they line up on that one bullet hole.

That technique might work well if you had access to a Ransom Rest AND your gun had adjustable sights (that were adjustable enough).

Otherwise, it would arguably be a lot of trouble and would only work for WINDAGE adjustments, and not ELEVATION.

[tipoc]

I said this earlier and made a mistake when I did:

Again it seems a radical difference for such a close range. 3 yards is one long step away and 7 yards 3 steps away from the muzzle. If the point of aim was the center of the target then the sights would be visibly off to the naked eye. No need to measure you'd see them as off.

3 yards is about three steps away and 7 yards seven to eight steps. This is still a short distance in both cases.

The op has not been back so I wonder if he did what several here suggested...have a another shooter shoot the gun and see their results. This would be cheap to do and eliminate shooter error. Eliminate the simple stuff before spending money.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by KODA94

the hold I'm using is a "dead on hold" or a "cover up" hold.... matches what you are calling a "center hold". I personally don't like this hold although I do ok with it in my other pistol that shoots that way.

My understanding may be off, but I don't think the "cover hold" is the same as a "center hold."

I shoot 1911s using a conventional post-and-notch sight picture. Center hold is when the top of the front sight is aligned with the center of the bullseye. But ... as I mentioned in an earlier post, my experience has been that white dot sights and fiber optic sights that call for a "cover hold" are not regulated to the same point of aim as the tops of the sights.

[HiBC]

I suggest you review post 22.

Even a Ransom Rest can't zero a pistol for your grip and hold.

I don't understand the reluctance to evaluate the gun at 25 yds.

After reviewing post 22,if you shoot to a horizontal line with the sight picture level/flush,you have established the 25 yd variance between POI and POA for elevation..

Till then,forget all about center hold versus 6 oclock hold. Shoot only at the horizontal line. Once you have that data,if you prefer a 6 ocklock hold with an 8 in bull at 25 yds,GREAT! Set t up 4 in high from a horizontal line . That MAY mean a taller NM sight or equiv. Till you get the elevation,don't confuse the issue with windage.

After you have the elevation,you just drift the rear sight,but focus on perfect sght alignment for windage.

I suggest using a measuring tool such as a calipers to make adjustments to a calculation rather than beat and hope.

I get it,you paid a lot of money. I've found the combination of paying lots of money and having reasonable expectations often leads to buyers remorse..

If they will work with you,work with them....to a point. If they truly are not delivering quality,go ahead and out them.You owe them no favors.

For myself,I know shop math and I can run a Brideport mill.I can make a sight.

Maybe that's not possible for you. Most sight manufacturers will ft a sight for you. Talk with them. It might be if you do as I suggested in #22,you can send them just the slide with instructions "Its 22 inches low and 14 inches left at 25 yds from where I want the POI"

Its just shop math. They can fix that.no problem.

Without implying anything...I'm not there,be careful to assess wheter ts the gun (they can fix) or the shooter (they can't fix,but you can)


25 yds. Elevation,then windage. Large sample size Collect the data. Machnists can work with data

[zeke]

"Raise the "rear sight end". Where does the "point of impact" end go? It goes DOWN. Sight height is a calculated relationship, between front and rear, and desired point of impact Too high a rear sight and the pistol will shoot low. Too low, it will shoot high."

Raising the rear end of a pistol while keeping the front end stationary, will make it shoot lower, . Raising the height of the rear sight and shooting the pistol with the sights aligned makes the pistol shoot higher, as the you must raise the front sight of the pistol to align it with the rear.

You crank the rear sight of a pistol/rifle up to make the gun shoot higher, you crank it down to shoot lower.

You lower the height of the front sight to make it shoot higher, and raise it to shoot lower.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by zeke

"Raise the "rear sight end". Where does the "point of impact" end go? It goes DOWN.

You might want to rethink that a bit.

[zeke]

[QUOTE=44 AMP;6742593]

"Raise the "rear sight end". Where does the "point of impact" end go? It goes DOWN. Sight height is a calculated relationship, between front and rear, and desired point of impact Too high a rear sight and the pistol will shoot low. Too low, it will shoot high."

From post 34

[tipoc]

The op, Koda94, hasn't been back for almost 3 weeks. It would be good to hear back from him. Did he go to the range again and get someone else to shoot the gun? Did he measure the sights against the height of other 1911s with the same length of barrel?

tipoc

[zeke]

Agree it would be nice to hear back, hint