44 Mag or other big bore pistol….Bear, Deer @ 100yd loads

[Nathan]

In a pistol, I know what is acceptable for performance. In my rifle, I know acceptable performance criteria.

In 44 mag or 45 Colt, I’m a bit confused. Some folks shoot jhp’s. I’m assuming if loads match factory that bullets will be effective. If shooting JSP’s, what velocity do I need at 100 yds to be effective on mule deer? or bears at 50ft/25yds? If SWC, same or different? Do I need 300gr bullets, or are 200’s fine.

[Paul B.]

Frankly, I would prefer my big game to be a lot closer. I haven't done any handgun hunts for a very long time and the two deer I did shoot were right around 35 to 40 yards away. Deer #1 was hit in the shoulder with a 240 gr. Remington hollow point. Gun was a New Model Ruger Super Blackhawk. Deer did about a 20 yard sprint and went down hard. Bullet jacket was lodged in the shoulder bone and the lead portion passed out the other side.

Deer # 2 was shot with the same gun a year later and about the same distance and again in the shoulder. The bullet this time was a home cast 250 gr. Keith style semi wadcutter. Bullet passed clean though the shoulder and exited just behind the off side shoulder. Deer dropped on the spot.

During the time period involved, I was shooting the .44 mag literally every day and was serious hell on the local jackrabbit population out to about a bit further than 100 yards, say maybe 125 yards. I just didn't want to try it on bigger game which in my case at the time was deer.
Paul B.

[Unclenick]

Bullets are designed to do best in a certain impact velocity range. The longer barrel of a rifle will increase muzzle velocity some, so you want to check with the bullet manufacturer to confirm your bullet is good at the impact velocity you expect. Indeed, I think it is worth running an exterior ballistics program precisely for this purpose at, say, 10-yard intervals and at your coldest and warmest expected firing temperatures. Then, look at the tables to see where along the trajectory the manufacturer's recommended impact velocity range is being adhered to. You can then either hunt targets within that range or start fiddling with velocity to get the range you want, assuming the gun is up to it.

[44 AMP]

If shooting JSP’s, what velocity do I need at 100 yds to be effective on mule deer?

I think you should look at the question from the other end. What velocity can you get from what you are using??? Then see if that velocity will be effective.

The answer to the second part will almost certainly be "yes" provided you put the bullet in the right spot.

Handloaded .45 Colt, in a suitable gun, can match .44 Mag performance. Factory loads, loaded to the SAAMI standard for .45 Colt, will not.

My opinion on 300gr bullets is that they are not needed. The .45 Colt has been around since 1873 running a 250gr and the .44 Mag since about 1956 or so, running a 240/250gr slug and those were clearly enough. The 300s didn't even exist until within the last few decades and were made popular by some gun writers, expounding on their tremendous penetration. Today, some people think the need them, but I don't.

Remember, a bullet doesn't have to expand to be effective. It just has to be in the right place. Hardcast slugs work, and work well without expanding any, provided the shooter puts them in the right spot.

SO, look at the gun you are going to be using, and its performance with different loads. Even a 4" .44Mag can take down deer at about any range you can accurately hit them. Keith proved that, more than once.

Keith's "classic" load was his 250gr SWC over 22gr of 2400 powder (and standard primers). Skeeter Skelton preferred a 240 over 21.5gr 2400.

You can match these loads with H110 or W296. AA No.9 is a good choice as well.

40 years ago I ran .44 Mag level loads from my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt. I don't do that any more, I have .44Mags for that.

[stinkeypete]

About 25 years ago, I was a reasonably competitive bullseye shooter at the State level. Certainly at the club level. I was practicing at 50 yard bullseye targets and hunting big Wisconsin white tail deer.

I bet I have taken more than 15 white tails with a handgun and more than a few with the Savage ML2 muzzle loader... which pushes .452 Hornady XTPs ... lets just say I was over 2,500 fps and leave it at that.

I learned the hard way:
Shooting at the range is good practice but not at all like shooting in the field.
While I was "minute of Deer vitals" at 50 yards at the range, 50 yards was simply too long a shot with a handgun in the field. I cut down plenty of sticks and ... just plain have no explanation as to why my "sure shots" at 50 years resulted in deer running away with no blood trail in the snow. I just missed.

But sticking to the trails in the woods, 25 yards was very successful. I learned how to hunt.

Oh, I had a .454 Casull... plenty of power at 100 yards. But as great a shot as I was.. that's too far for handgun hunting. And it was heavy and talk about recoil!

Then I went to .45 Colt Ruger Only loads. That was a thing before Ruger made a bunch of blackhawks that could not take hotrodding.
Then I went to good stout .45 Colt loads with XTPs. These worked just fine on big white tails. Why had I been punishing myself?

Now I have a Bowen customoized .44 Magnum Blackhawk. I am convinced I could take it hunting for anything from deer to moose to elk. A 240 grain XTP will do the job if the vitals are hit. And that means hunting. Waiting for the close shot.

I also pushed a 240 grain XTP over 2,500 fps. I dug the slug out of the hill behind my deer. The petals were still intact. That's amazing.

If using cast bullets, you need to aim to break bones... shoulders or necks. Lung shots give a bad result. An XTP opens a big hole in a lung shot.

100 yards... just about 70 yards too far to really hit your prey where you need to hit it. JMO.

[Nathan]

It sounds like we all have similar issues determining what is enough gun!

This question comes from my youth. When I was about 17ish, I shot a mule deer at 125yds and hit it perfectly at the back lower edge of the shoulder blade. I knew I was good to 100ish because I regularly shot to 100yds with that Ruger 10.5” SBH with a 4x scope. I was shooting some hot 240gr jhp’s. Everything was pretty solid in regards to the setup and the shot.

At the end of the day, I did not like the deer’s reaction. I was probably a bit immature in my hunting experience. The deer ran about 100yds and laid down. When I walked up to it, it took off. ~50 yds later it laid down. I shot it again which killed it….base of the neck. Upon inspecting the wound, it entered, it exited. It hit organs.

I was a handgun hunter at the time….44 mag & 375 JDJ. Never shot that far with the 44 mag again. Shot to 150 or so with the 375. I never had that “arrow” like reaction again.

So, with my 5” 44mag launching 240gr SWC’S at 1200fps, I wonder if I have a 25yd, 50yd, 100yd deer gun. I know I can hit to 100yds with some rest….but how lethal is the shot?

[ligonierbill]

We've all heard of Elmer Keith's 600 yd shot to finish a client's wounded deer. From what you wrote, your shot was a touch high but clearly lethal. Track it 150 yd for a finishing shot - sounds good to me. I wouldn't worry about your new 44 at 100, if you are confident in hitting the proverbial pie plate.

A good read is Big-Bore Revolvers by Max Prasac. He is a hardcast bullet guy, but he includes a point/counterpoint, with the jacketed point by Gary Smith. One of the best objective discussions of bullets I've seen.

[GeauxTide]

if 100 yards, rifle. if 50 yards, 45 Colt 285gr RCBS SAA over 10gr of Unique for 1057fps.

[bamaranger]

One aspect of the original question to consider is that mule deer and bear are two different critters. I know little of mule deer except what I read, and that is that the avg weight of one is 200 lbs and the max is just over 300. They are built to run and while boned heavier than a whitetail, their bone structure is not as dense as a bear, even the more common black bear. While bears can run surprisingly fast, that are not a "flight" animal and their bone structure is denser, as is the amount of body fat and muscle hihde and hair the skeleton supports.

The point, different bullets for different animals. I'd shoot a heavy JSP or SWC at bears, even blackies, provided my carbine if slow twisted, would group (and feed) them. A .44 revolver should handle about any slug you choose, including the super heavies, as long as overall length is within spec. On deer, I'd be comfortable with anybody's 240 gr slug, JHP or JSP. I've killed enough whitetails with 180-200 gr JHP's from a carbine to think that the std 240 grs would work fine on their bigger western cousins.

I've not shot a bear, but I've assisted in handling several for weight and age while working seasonally in Shenandoah and Great Smokey's and encountered a goodly number on trail patrol and while fishing in recent years. A big blackie can run 500 pounds plus, though the average is likely
half that. While they are inclined to run upon contact, they are not necessarily a flight species and I'd never trust one up close....teeth and claws ya'know.

I'd want my shots under 100 yds.

The great bears of the west and north are another story entirely, both in size and tempermant and we bat that around here plenty already.

[black mamba]

I use 41, 44 and 454 magnums for hunting. I know what ranges I can reliably and repeatedly hit game at with each one. The velocity and energy figures for all of them are good for putting game down fast with good hits. Unless you are hunting with a handgun beyond 100 yards, you don't need to concern yourself with trajectory and energy figures. All of these magnums can be "Point Blank Range" sighted in out to 100 yards. If I'm hunting heavy muscled and boned animals I use hard cast SWC and WFN bullets for greater penetration. For deer and lighter animals I use HP bullets to open faster. For me, getting close to game is the fun part, so I don't worry about all the long range stuff. Factory lead bullet loadings in 44 Special and 45 Colt will kill deer easily at 20 yards. The last three I killed were at 14 yards (tree stand) and 6 yards and 17 yards off the ground. They all died within 20 yards.

[MarkCO]

I truly enjoy hunting with a handgun. I've shot Deer, Elk, Pronghorn, Predators and small game from up close to out pretty far. 10mm with an XTP at 80 yards on an Elk, .414 with hard cast at 130 yards on a Deer.

To me, just like rifle, it is the ability, in field conditions, to reliably hit where you are aiming, and for the bullet to have enough energy to kill reliably. Note, I don't say perfect, because that does not happen.

I prefer JHPs because the manufacturers provide velocity ranges where they will work as intended. With hard cast, one is poking a hole, and so the ability to penetrate is less certain, especially if the hit is not perfect. I've punched through shoulders and had the same bullet deflect and wound with about the same shot.

Pick a cartridge and get to practicing. While doing that, research the various bullet designs, what they are good for, intended impact velocity ranges, etc. They vary, even in caliber. For instance, the 180 XTP has a larger window than the 200 XTP in 10mm. Also, with handgun bullets, their poor BC and slower speeds (as compared to rifles) typically will slow faster resulting in a shorter, acceptable max range. I am more limited by effective killing potential than the ability to hit.

FWIW, in most cases, one now has to call the manufacturer to ask about the acceptable impact velocity range. They used to list that, now to not.

[Metal god]

I'll be camping in Montana this summer mid June . Was told to bring something for bear wasn't expecting that statement . Only thing I have that is handy is a 44mag and rifle wise only AR-10 . I do have light bolt actions in 308 . So I'm thinking 44mag for the ease to carry while hiking ?? My AR-10 is pretty light with only a 16" barrel .

Anway's I will not be loading my ammo so what factory ammo for an old S&W 629 with pinned barrel and firing pin on hammer ?

Should I even consider bringing a rifle ?

[ligonierbill]

You know what kills people in Montana? The weather. If you want to carry a rifle, go ahead, but I'd rather "spend" my weight budget on extra clothes, water, and emergency gear. When I lived in SE Idaho, some folks did carry 44 Mags, and I knew or knew of a number of people who encountered hostile critters (more likely to be an ornery moose). Only once did someone I knew defend his camp with a firearm. The story was, this guy rolled over in his sleeping bag and dropped a bear with his 44. When I actually talked to him, he was in a hard sided camper, it was a black bear that just wouldn't leave despite much pot banging, and he shot it with a bolt action 308. Never once did I hear of someone drawing their pistol and killing an attacking bear, though I'm sure it has happened.

If I were to pack a 44 in your situation, I would find some commercial heavy hardcast bullets, like from Buffalo Bore. And keep it close and ready. A bear that's demonstrating usually would be happy if you just left. A bear on the attack is likely to come out of the bushes like a freight train. Have fun whatever you decide.

[Nathan]

The only Montana dangerous game experience I’ve had was a young bull moose. I bumped him 3 times. No. 3 was his pissed off point. I held my 30-06 on him and finally he got my message. Good thing MT is a “stand your ground” state! Highlight Basin Area.

My dad did come back to camp to find a grizzly messing with his cookware. The grizzly was entertained with the cookware, so my dad backed out of sight and watched from afar. The bear left without destroying too much. I know he started carrying bear spray after that. He doesn’t seem to like carrying guns. Maybe because he doesn’t really have the right ones. In MT….Rhoda Lake area.

[Metal god]

I'll be up around Flathead lake . I have family that live about 15min from the lake . Not sure where the camping will be , somewhere in the mountains near by I assume haha .

Yeah I ask about the firearm and they said very unlikely needed and they will have bear spray but it's good to have just in case . I think they just want to shoot some guns

[Mike / Tx]

In a pistol, I know what is acceptable for performance. In my rifle, I know acceptable performance criteria.

In 44 mag or 45 Colt, I’m a bit confused. Some folks shoot jhp’s. I’m assuming if loads match factory that bullets will be effective. If shooting JSP’s, what velocity do I need at 100 yds to be effective on mule deer? or bears at 50ft/25yds? If SWC, same or different? Do I need 300gr bullets, or are 200’s fine

I've been hunting with revolvers since back in the 80's. I started out with a 41magnum then a scoped 44. With the 41 I was good out to around 50yds, and the 44 was dialed in for 100. At the time I ran the 170gr Rem SJHP in the 41 and the 180gr Sierra in the 44. All was good with the world. I only took shots on game within about half the distances mentioned above and everything worked out great. I was only hunting lightweight whitetails at the time.

Fast forward to the late 90's and on, and I was helping a friend out with feral hogs. I bumped the bullet weights up to 180 for the 10mm, 200gr for the 41, and 240 for the 44. Hogs are a different critter and we got to calling them East Tx grizzly's due to their tenacious ability to soak up shots. Where we hunted they had a thick gumbo type clay to wallow in and this would become embedded in their already stiff hair. Combine that with some of the boars thick shield and some of them could soak up a shot with very little penetration depending on the range. I switched over to cast solids in the 44 and up for them. They simply worked out better and seemed to deliver just as lethal a blow as anything else, and usually penetrated completely sometimes from nose to tail and then some.

For your exercise going with the soft point verses the hollow point would be prudent. I would use the 240's in the 44, and 250'ish in the 45 Colt. If you choose cast, a SWC or wide flat nose would be my recommendation. As mentioned above, the 250gr in the Colt is a very formidable load. Even at the modest velocities a solid will penetrate deeply. The 44 would do as good or better only being slightly smaller in diameter, but possibly being run at a bit higher velocity.

I didn't see mention of make or model being shot, but if things are of modern design and strength, and if you are handloading, I would look up the loads from Linebaugh's 45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth and if nothing else read through it to get a better understanding on the Colt's abilities. I have run my Redhawk into upper load ranges, just to see how they were. I found sticking to right around 950 - 1100fps loads using a 250 - 280gr WFN bullet I could shoot lengthwise through a 6gal bucket of tamped sand at 25yds and come within a few inches at 50yds. With the 44 and similar loads this was about equaled. The "bucket test" was what I was using to catch my bullets, not necessarily to determine penetration. However it did show me a LOT with regard to how different bullets and styles would perform at different velocities and ranges.

If I were going cast in either I would load up something that is real close to these,

[Paul B.]

I haven't done much handgun shooting for quite a while. Most of my .44 and .45 caliber shooting was done with Elmer Keith style semi-wadcutters cast moderately hard. The mushroom a bit still penetrate well. Bullet hardness usually is set at 11 on the BHN scale but will water drop from the mold to 19 on the scale and if heat treated in an oven for a longer period of time will harden to right around 30 on the BHN scale.

I've only shot a couple of deer as mentioned earlier in the thread, just never took it up seriously. I did do a serious number on jackrabbits out past 100 yards, probably about 125 yards tops. Probably can't hit the inside off barn these days as it's been years since I shot a handgun for fun or otherwise, partly due to health problems.

The only other big game taken with the handgun other than the two deer mentioned earlier was a roughly 250 pound Black Bear which had entered camp was attempting to leave with a camper. It took two shots from a Smith ^ Wesson .38/44 Outdoorsman to stop the attack. Probably never forget the time it happened, Labor Day weekend 1959. The gun was loaded with .38 Spl. brass loaded with H2400 at a max lever (I forget how many grains of powder) and a cast Lyman #358156 cast bullet. Probably cast from wheel weight metal. Made for an interesting night.

Until my knees gave out I used to hike the local mountains and desert as often as I could. I rarely carried a rifle but there was always a handgun on my hip or shoulder rig depending on the gun. I finally settled on a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 magnum with 4 5/8 inch barrel for general use or a 5.5" Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt. Depending on the time of year it wasn't too unusual to see a bear crossing the desert to get to the next mountain range. I've even seen a Mountain Lion doing the same thing. I do miss getting out there thanks to those knees. Guess I'm just an old desert rat at heart.
Paul B.

[1972RedNeck]

I don't have much to add, but the fastest I have ever seen an elk drop was from a 158gr XTP from my 5" 357mag at 200 yards. Was it an ethical, sportsman like shot? Obviously not. I was just a peeved farmer with a dozen damage tags trying to keep them from destroying my haystacks. I threw out a hail marry and that cow elk dropped like a brick and didn't even twitch.

Have shot one wounded elk with HOT 300 gr XTPs from my 8" 460 S&W. Took three shots in the vitals to put it down.

Have killed a pile of elk (damage tags) with my 7mm Rem Mag BLR. Not impressed with the performance at all, but I can and have stopped the truck, grabbed the rifle, and hit 3 elk in 3 shots as they are taking off, shooting about as fast as I can work the lever. Out of the many elk I have shot with the 7mm, only one has been a one shot kill (neck shot).

No experience with large bears, but from my fairly extensive experience with elk, I prefer a heavy, large diameter chunk of lead traveling at slower speeds (1000 to 1200 ish) upon impact. 454 Casull with 360 grain hardcasts is about as good as it gets for a handgun for tough animals in my opinion. I am looking at getting an 1886 Winchester in 45-90 for the sole purpose of thinning my resident elk herd as I don't like having to chase wounded animals to put them down. Hoping to push a 500 gr bullet at 1700 to 1800 at the muzzle. The increased magazine capacity will be a welcome addition as well.