reloading 10 mm have you ever seen this?

[rtpzwms]

I'm reloading 10mm, after full length resizing it fits perfectly into LE Wilson PMG-10M pistol gauge. After adding primer and powder it still fits perfectly in the pistol gauge. After seating the bullet, it starts into pistol gauge but stops about 1/4 inch from the case head being seated in the pistol gauge. The neck dimension is spot on. The case is .003 under COL. I've seen this using Lee and Hornady dies.

[cavediver27]

Are you removing the flare and crimping? I use Lee Carbide Factory Crimp dies for all my pistol loading including 10mm. They basically resize the entire case length and apply a nice taper crimp. I usually only apply a light crimp and all my cartridges fit my case gauges perfectly.

[Shadow9mm]

You say its .003 under COL. What COL? Max for the cartridge? Or the bullet makers COL, or a COL you picked based on a similar bullet?

What bullet are you loading?
What COL ate you using?
What brass are you using?
What neck dimension are you using?

A few things I can think of.

You have the wrong COL for the bullet and are seating out too far.

Your not putting enough taper crimp on the case after seating.

your crimping too hard and bulging the case, behind the crimp. unlikely but possible.

If you have been using the lee factory crimp die, it also sizes the case body again. to ensure it will chamber properly. If you used this and are still having this issue i would suspect you bullets are seated too long and are contacting the rifling.

The other possibility, if your using mixed brass, is overly thick brass. I have had problems with a couple brands, mainly -CBC- . they hang up in the gauge every time. Check to see if its a particular head stamp that's giving you problems.

[rtpzwms]

COL is the bullet COL.
Yes, the case mouth is flared just enough to start the bullet into the case. This is done using the second die in order to add the powder. I did try it with an oversized case mouth opening but got the same result. Several bullets come out just fine and drop right into the pistol gauge. In fact, in the 60 or so rounds only two have this issue currently. I have also chamfered and deburred the case mouth on each round. This is mixed brass so I will be checking head stamps. As stated, this is happening with two different manufactures bullet seating dies. So, getting both of them set to have too much crimp and bulge the case is to me very unlikely. All dimensions have been from the Hornady reloading manual and checked with the Sierra reloading manual. I also checked Berry's site and it agrees with the data in the Hornady manual. The bullets are from Berrys. I did disassemble the rounds and used the same bullet in a different case, and it worked perfectly. So, at this point it seems to me to be a brass specific issue.

[Shadow9mm]

I would agree, probably an issue with specific head stamps.

[44 AMP]

How do your rounds fit in your pistol's chamber???

The gun(s) you are shooting are the only gauge that really matters.

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

How do your rounds fit in your pistol's chamber???

The gun(s) you are shooting are the only gauge that really matters.

This is exactly right. I have had cartridges that fit a gauge fine, but not my chamber.

[Unclenick]

The SAAMI COL is a maximum for magazine fit. For feed and chamber fit, the maximum COL changes with bullet design. Here's an example of why:



You can see how different the two COLs are, yet the bullets have the same jump to the lands. In your case, I would expect you are seating the bullet out too far for its particular shape. If it is a more blunt shape than the FMJ round nose, it almost certainly will have to be seated shorter than SAAMI maximum to fit.

[stagpanther]

How do your rounds fit in your pistol's chamber???

That's the only way I check my 10mm pistol loads--I pull the barrel and do the kerplunk test while making sure the head has necessary support.

[rtpzwms]

The pistol will chamber the 60 or so others done at the same time in the same die but will not accept the rejects. I even tried in a live cycle, and it will not go into battery. The bullets are not getting to the lands. Checked with Dykem. As stated, they stop going into the pistol gauge about 1/4 inch before the case head would be flush. This would also rule out the lands. They are swelling between the case mouth and the case head. This is a very small number of rejects currently two. I am wondering if the brass was used with an unsupported chamber would this contribute to this issue.

The gun(s) you are shooting are the only gauge that really matters.

True enough as far as it goes but if you want to make sure they would work in any gun you can't check every chamber. For example if I was loading for 9mm I might have to check 8 barrels. Thats why I use the Wilson pistol max gauge. The Wilson Pistol Max (Cartridge) Gage is designed to check loaded pistol cartridges and is set to maximum SAAMI spec dimensions. This gage will measure Max Case Length, Max Cartridge dimensions and Max Loaded Round Length. Every commercial round I've checked will always fit in these gauges.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by rtpzwms

The pistol will chamber the 60 or so others done at the same time in the same die but will not accept the rejects. I even tried in a live cycle, and it will not go into battery. The bullets are not getting to the lands. Checked with Dykem. As stated, they stop going into the pistol gauge about 1/4 inch before the case head would be flush. This would also rule out the lands. They are swelling between the case mouth and the case head. This is a very small number of rejects currently two. I am wondering if the brass was used with an unsupported chamber would this contribute to this issue.

I dont think its the bases. You said it gauges after sizing, but not after seating. Meaning it is in the area where the bullet is seated as that is the only area changing. I still suspect its a specific head stamp or 2 with thicker brass thats making it fatter and binding it up.

An unsupported chamber can cause issues. Lee makes a bulge buster die that will fit 10mm. But again, if it gauges after sizing, i dont think thst is the issue.

[Unclenick]

Two other thoughts: have you compared the lengths of the cases as they come out of the sizing die? If you are applying a crimp and set the crimp shoulder up with a short case, longer ones can over-crimp, and that can bulge the case.

The less likely thought: I once bought some foreign-made 45 FMJ ammunition. The bullet diameters were all 0.449" instead of the usual 0.451". Why they made them that way, I don't know, but they also had very thick case necks that brought the mouths of the finished cartridges to SAAMI maximum for a finished cartridge case mouth, which is 0.473". When I subsequently tried reloading them with a 0.452" cast bullet, the cases were at about 0.477" OD, which is 0.001" over SAAMI maximum chamber diameter at the mouth and could not be chambered. If you have a similar problem with odd brass, it would fit your symptoms. Measure the ODs and see what you get.

[rtpzwms]

I did compare the cases and they appear to be identical after full length resizing. There is almost no crimp added. As for the bullets, after failing the size test. I pulled the bullets and used them both in different cases that were fine passing the same sizing test. I did get a Lee bulge buster and after putting the two loaded cases through the die (this is permissible according to Lee) both cased passed the sizing test. So, I still don't have the actual cause, but I do have a solution.

[Unclenick]

That's good to know. The only other thing that comes to mind is to ask if you saw a line where the bottom of the seated bullet was located under the brass. It's normal to have one when a carbide sizing ring takes the taper out of the case. But if the lump was all on one side, it indicates a crookedly seated bullet. If that were crooked enough, it could cause an issue. Using a Lyman M or Mult-expander type expanding profile can cure it.

[rtpzwms]

No line is visible at the bullet seated depth. I have seen that before but not in quite a while. I also know what you're talking about with the lower ring from the carbide dies I do see those, but they are normally well into the webbing of the case head. I have really only two thoughts at this time as to the cause. 1 the brass is so soft that it's moving during the bullet seating. 2 the brass is so thick there that it is oversized when the bullet it seated. I have no way to measure with enough certainty to tell if this holds water. The reasoning for not putting the bullet at fault is the reuse of the bullets from the cases showing the defect being reused in other cases and showing no defect in the new (to the bullet) cases. That coupled with the same defective cases continuing to be defective with new bullets.

[Unclenick]

Sounds like you may have some oddly thick cases like I had in 45 Auto. The only way I know to measure is simply over top of a seated bullet as compared to other cases.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by rtpzwms

No line is visible at the bullet seated depth. I have seen that before but not in quite a while. I also know what you're talking about with the lower ring from the carbide dies I do see those, but they are normally well into the webbing of the case head. I have really only two thoughts at this time as to the cause. 1 the brass is so soft that it's moving during the bullet seating. 2 the brass is so thick there that it is oversized when the bullet it seated. I have no way to measure with enough certainty to tell if this holds water. The reasoning for not putting the bullet at fault is the reuse of the bullets from the cases showing the defect being reused in other cases and showing no defect in the new (to the bullet) cases. That coupled with the same defective cases continuing to be defective with new bullets.

Did you ever pinpoint if it was a specific headstamp?

[rtpzwms]

With a sample size of two I can't conclude that a specific brand is at fault. They were the same head stamps but only two it's hard to place blame. There were others of the same head stamp that worked just fine with no issue. This being range brass not sure of how it hit the ground and if any of it is from the same lot. I think placing blame would be a bit reckless on my part. But it is not worthy of dismissal either.

As for measuring the bulge it is below the seated depth of the actual bullet so not sure what that would do. Some of the bulge may be at the start of the webbing of the case. But for whatever the cause it is bulging. I will monitor the brass carefully going forward to see if firing and reloading will allow this to continue or if this is a one-off anomaly. No matter what the cause it's a head scratcher. It surely had me thinking outside of the box and appreciating all of the input from everyone.

[Unclenick]

You may have hit on it there. If you have pin gauges or know someone who does, take one of your resized cases and find a gauge that just barely slides in and see where it stops. No bullet base should be seated past that depth. If your bullet sticks out too far at that seating depth, you need a different bullet. You can look at different cases to see if that thickening of the case walls commences earlier than the others. If it does, the case is designed for a shorter bullet than you are using.

[pathdoc]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

That's the only way I check my 10mm pistol loads--I pull the barrel and do the kerplunk test while making sure the head has necessary support.

Yep. Works every time. I always reload with my automatic disassembled on the bench. As soon as every bullet is seated, the round gets the kerplunk test and a finger run across the breech face to make sure it's all the way in. But that sound is almost always the tell-tale that everything went right.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by pathdoc

Yep. Works every time. I always reload with my automatic disassembled on the bench. As soon as every bullet is seated, the round gets the kerplunk test and a finger run across the breech face to make sure it's all the way in. But that sound is almost always the tell-tale that everything went right.

Seems like a lot of trouble to me. Once I get my seat and crimp set, I never have any problems.

[Unclenick]

It would be a lot of trouble for practice and plinking loads but seems to me like a reasonable step in preparing loads for a match.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

It would be a lot of trouble for practice and plinking loads but seems to me like a reasonable step in preparing loads for a match.

Out of curiosity, do you ever find one that won't fit? If it goes through my final die without getting mangled, the size is right.