Trap and Skeet

mitchntx · January 8, 2012, 08:16 AM

I've been a total of two times. I officially suck at it, but it sure is a lot of fun.

First time I shot my Dad's 870 that I inherited. It is a Tx DPS issue and was presented to him after his good friend, a DPS trooper, passed away. So, I really don;t want to shoot it.

Last time, I shot this open barrel Mossberg 590 Mariner. Everything went fine, but it's not the best option.

So, while cruising around a LGS, I saw an American Arms Water Fowl. It's a 12G 28" O/U, chambered for 3 1/2" shells and it looks to be in really good shape. It's no Barretta Silver Pigeon, but it didn't cost $1800 either.

I decided to take a chance and brought the AA home for under $200.

I'm headed out to a range today and will run a few rounds through it.

3kgt2nv · January 8, 2012, 12:50 PM

for trap and skeet something with longer barrels will help as the pattern will be better. Also having adjustable chokes will help also. I have a variety of shotguns but the motto the right tool for the job does work for skeet/trap.

picking up a inexpensive o/u shotgun with a longer set of barrels and some chokes and you will see your hits/breaks go up dramatically.

shotguns ive used for trap and the order i used them
870 wingmaster with bird barrel
browning a-5
browning citori lightning sporting clays in 12g
browning citori lightning sporting clays in 16g
blaser f4

good job on the gun buy and let us know how you made out.

jrothWA · January 8, 2012, 01:12 PM

for trap a longer barrel 28" / 30", with IMP CYL, MOD, or IMP MOD, is best as the
clays are alway going away from you on a rising then falling trajectory.
the stage to hit them is on the rising side to just before they DROP!

For skeet is best to have a 24" or less barrel with a SKT 1 or SKT 2 choke,
as those birds are either racing away or in, from STA 1,2, 6, & 7, then you get the left right crosser at STA 3,4, & 5. Nominal range is the crossing stake @ 25 yds.

If the 870 was a 18"/ 20" barrel then you have to pattern it to see where the
POI is related to POA. It will be different and may need a stock adjustment to get consistent hits.

This does not take into account the wind direction and or velocity!
Winf can either make those birds rise /fall depending on the bird heading into, then rise or DROP if a tailwind. If GUSTING then its like trying to hit "DAFFY DUCK" going yahoo, yahoo out there.

Just remember either trap or skeet is a delightful way to DRIVE YOU CRAZY!

Not even going to touch Sporting clays!

jaguarxk120 · January 8, 2012, 01:22 PM

Take a good look at your American Arms o/u to see who made the gun.

I have a American Arms Black Magic auto loader, its a Franchi AL48.
Looking at older posts on ShotgunWorld the owners of the AA guns generally liked them. Many of the o/u's were made by Fausti.

zippy13 · January 8, 2012, 02:43 PM

for trap and skeet something with longer barrels will help as the pattern will be better.

Baloney

For skeet is best to have a 24" or less barrel

More baloney

mitchntx · January 8, 2012, 04:05 PM

Well it shot just fine.

Markings on the gun are:

American Arms Inc NKC Mo
Waterfowl Special
12G 3 1/2

CAM 89
KG 1650

It has a Full and Improved Cylinder chokes installed.

jaguarxk120 · January 8, 2012, 04:18 PM

Look on the bottom of the barrels the proof marks will tell you country of orign. If Italy then there is a date of manufacture code stamped on them.

mitchntx · January 8, 2012, 04:55 PM

I see the circled double star with PSF.
So that means its Italian made

I see a BC so that tells me it's made in 1993.

Correct?

3kgt2nv · January 8, 2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:

for trap and skeet something with longer barrels will help as the pattern will be better.

Baloney

longer barrel will keep the shot group tighter together than a shorter barrel on the same firearm would.

pattern a shotgun then hack the barrel down and you will see how much the pattern opens.

I didnt think it would make a difference either since its a smooth bore barrel for a shotgun but it does.

jaguarxk120 · January 8, 2012, 05:30 PM

Mitchntx the BC is 1993 and the PSF with the circle & star is from the Gardone & Brescia proof house. It is the finish proof for firearms for sale.

No my Franchi the right side of the barrel shows American Arms and on the left side is L. Franchi, is there any markings on the left side of the barrel?

mitchntx · January 8, 2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

is there any markings on the left side of the barrel?

Only

Quote:

Waterfowl Special
12G 3 1/2

And I looked very close with a magnifying glass.

darkgael · January 8, 2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:
for trap and skeet something with longer barrels will help as the pattern will be better.

Baloney
longer barrel will keep the shot group tighter together than a shorter barrel on the same firearm would.

pattern a shotgun then hack the barrel down and you will see how much the pattern opens.

I didnt think it would make a difference either since its a smooth bore barrel for a shotgun but it does.

Barrel length has little or nothing to do with how well (or not) a barrel patterns. The pattern is determined by the choke, not the length of the barrel. If you cut down a barrel and the pattern opens up, there are a number of reasons that can cause the difference. The most probable one is that, it cutting down the barrel, the choke was cut off and the barrel is now Cylinder bore. Another is that the finish on the muzzle is not smooth enough and the pattern is disturbed. (And, Yes, I have cut down barrels and patterned them. The barrels were Cyl before and Cyl after cutting. The pattern was the same.)
Barrel length has everything, however, to do with swing mechanics.; In the Trap game, longer barrels are the most common amongst the serious shooters - the guys burning 10-20-30 thousand shells a year. Barrels at 32" and 34" are the norm. Short barrels are handy in the huckleberries when chasing Grouse, lively and quick. But in Trap....short barrels start fast and stop fast; longer barrels smooth the swing out and help with follow through.
About chokes - Not IC, M, or IM - though they will, of course, work. Most fellows that I know are shooting FC (when I bought my Browning BT-99, it came with one choke tube...Full). The bird starts at 16 yards, by the time the average shooter picks it up, tracks and swings through and fires, the bird is at double that, 32 to 40 yards, not IC distance.

3kgt2nv · January 8, 2012, 06:08 PM

ok with that being said about length i will concede the issue as I am able to admit i am not correctly informed.

mitchntx · January 8, 2012, 06:27 PM

School me on chokes ... are they manufacturer specific? Would a 12G choke work in any 12g?

3kgt2nv · January 8, 2012, 06:29 PM

usually model specific. But different ones may fit different models. a quick look at manufacturers website should tell what style chokes will fit

SurplusShooter · January 8, 2012, 06:31 PM

What about the CZ mallared a very good and well priced gun. I have shot trap with one and am fond of its preformence.

mitchntx · January 8, 2012, 06:32 PM

So what I'm reading is I need an American Arm Inc., 12 gauge, Water Fowl special chokes.

I bet they have those at Wal-Mart ...

3kgt2nv · January 8, 2012, 06:35 PM

Quote:

So what I'm reading is I need an American Arm Inc., 12 gauge, Water Fowl special chokes.

I bet they have those at Wal-Mart ...

check what the choke style the gun uses on the manufacturer website. for all you know it might take the same style as a mossberg 500.

check here
http://choketube.com/choke-tube-prod...oke-Tubes&mf=1

jaguarxk120 · January 8, 2012, 06:59 PM

Give TruLock or Briely a call for chokes, they have chokes for every mfgr.

I found a post on shotgunworld referencing a Amercan Arms o/u and the note was that the o/u's were made by Fausti till 1998.

mitchntx · January 8, 2012, 07:12 PM

ooof ...

Thanks, doods!

zippy13 · January 8, 2012, 07:33 PM

Give TruLock or Briely a call for chokes, they have chokes for every mfgr.

I suspect Briley doesn't trust American Arms' screw-in choke consistency. For American Arms replacement screw-ins, they recommend: Chokes for your gun will have to be custom made by using one of your factory chokes as a sample. We can duplicate that choke to any constriction you want flush or extended.

jrothWA · January 8, 2012, 08:59 PM

I have been shootiing trap since 1970, Skeet since 1980 and I used the orignal low mount position not the shoulder mount as I am an upland hunter.

I was adding in the action length of the OP 870, did that occur to you?

The longer barrel for trap give longer sighing radius, that increase accuracy.

the shorter barrel for Skeet allow a more consistent swing as the clay is tracked and pulled thru.

zippy13 · January 8, 2012, 09:59 PM

I was adding in the action length of the OP 870, did that occur to you?

Yes I did, but the OP just got an O/U, and nobody seriously shoots Skeet with a R-870. The OP's 28" O/U is fine as an introductory Skeet gun provided it fits and has reasonably correct chokes. Recommending that an 870 be fitted with a barrel shorter than 24" will result in a gun that has a sloppy/choppy swing.

If you've been shooting Skeet since 1970, then you should know that the center stake is at 21-yards, not 25. For competitive shooters, Skeet is a game of inches and 4-yards is significant. Check your NSSA rule book, there is a diagram of the standard field layout.

...as the clay is tracked and pulled thru.

Perhaps you should try a sustained lead.

darkgael · January 9, 2012, 05:27 AM

Quote:

The longer barrel for trap give longer sighing radius, that increase accuracy.

I suppose that, if a shooter is "sighting/aiming" the shotgun, then radius may be a factor. In point of fact, though, following the oft stated "You aim a rifle; you point a shotgun", there are some of us who don't use the bead(s) as a sight but more as a reference point (I certainly don't use it when a grouse has boiled up in front of the dog). The whole concept of having a gun that "fits" is so the gun will shoot where I am looking. It is "aimed" by being properly mounted.
Whenever I have heard barrel length discussed, the focus has always been on balance and swing dynamics.

Quote:

School me on chokes .

About chokes, patterning and shotgunning in general, try Bob Brister's "Shotgunning: the Art and the Science."
Pete

zippy13 · January 9, 2012, 12:10 PM

Whenever I have heard barrel length discussed, the focus has always been on balance and swing dynamics.

Pete, my friend, you've hit the nail squarely on the head. Except, you forgot mention one thing, a longer barrel puts your muzzle a little closer to the target.

January 8, 2012, 08:16 AM	#1
mitchntx Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 358	Trap and Skeet I've been a total of two times. I officially suck at it, but it sure is a lot of fun. First time I shot my Dad's 870 that I inherited. It is a Tx DPS issue and was presented to him after his good friend, a DPS trooper, passed away. So, I really don;t want to shoot it. Last time, I shot this open barrel Mossberg 590 Mariner. Everything went fine, but it's not the best option. So, while cruising around a LGS, I saw an American Arms Water Fowl. It's a 12G 28" O/U, chambered for 3 1/2" shells and it looks to be in really good shape. It's no Barretta Silver Pigeon, but it didn't cost $1800 either. I decided to take a chance and brought the AA home for under $200. I'm headed out to a range today and will run a few rounds through it.

January 8, 2012, 01:12 PM	#3
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Different conficgurations for Trap & skeet.. for trap a longer barrel 28" / 30", with IMP CYL, MOD, or IMP MOD, is best as the clays are alway going away from you on a rising then falling trajectory. the stage to hit them is on the rising side to just before they DROP! For skeet is best to have a 24" or less barrel with a SKT 1 or SKT 2 choke, as those birds are either racing away or in, from STA 1,2, 6, & 7, then you get the left right crosser at STA 3,4, & 5. Nominal range is the crossing stake @ 25 yds. If the 870 was a 18"/ 20" barrel then you have to pattern it to see where the POI is related to POA. It will be different and may need a stock adjustment to get consistent hits. This does not take into account the wind direction and or velocity! Winf can either make those birds rise /fall depending on the bird heading into, then rise or DROP if a tailwind. If GUSTING then its like trying to hit "DAFFY DUCK" going yahoo, yahoo out there. Just remember either trap or skeet is a delightful way to DRIVE YOU CRAZY! Not even going to touch Sporting clays!

January 8, 2012, 02:43 PM	#5
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	for trap and skeet something with longer barrels will help as the pattern will be better. Baloney For skeet is best to have a 24" or less barrel More baloney

January 8, 2012, 08:59 PM	#22
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Mr. Zippy,... I have been shootiing trap since 1970, Skeet since 1980 and I used the orignal low mount position not the shoulder mount as I am an upland hunter. I was adding in the action length of the OP 870, did that occur to you? The longer barrel for trap give longer sighing radius, that increase accuracy. the shorter barrel for Skeet allow a more consistent swing as the clay is tracked and pulled thru.

January 8, 2012, 09:59 PM	#23
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	I was adding in the action length of the OP 870, did that occur to you? Yes I did, but the OP just got an O/U, and nobody seriously shoots Skeet with a R-870. The OP's 28" O/U is fine as an introductory Skeet gun provided it fits and has reasonably correct chokes. Recommending that an 870 be fitted with a barrel shorter than 24" will result in a gun that has a sloppy/choppy swing. If you've been shooting Skeet since 1970, then you should know that the center stake is at 21-yards, not 25. For competitive shooters, Skeet is a game of inches and 4-yards is significant. Check your NSSA rule book, there is a diagram of the standard field layout. ...as the clay is tracked and pulled thru. Perhaps you should try a sustained lead.

January 8, 2012, 12:50 PM	#2
3kgt2nv Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: hudson valley NY Posts: 517	for trap and skeet something with longer barrels will help as the pattern will be better. Also having adjustable chokes will help also. I have a variety of shotguns but the motto the right tool for the job does work for skeet/trap. picking up a inexpensive o/u shotgun with a longer set of barrels and some chokes and you will see your hits/breaks go up dramatically. shotguns ive used for trap and the order i used them 870 wingmaster with bird barrel browning a-5 browning citori lightning sporting clays in 12g browning citori lightning sporting clays in 16g blaser f4 good job on the gun buy and let us know how you made out.

January 8, 2012, 01:22 PM	#4
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Take a good look at your American Arms o/u to see who made the gun. I have a American Arms Black Magic auto loader, its a Franchi AL48. Looking at older posts on ShotgunWorld the owners of the AA guns generally liked them. Many of the o/u's were made by Fausti.

January 8, 2012, 04:05 PM	#6
mitchntx Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 358	Well it shot just fine. Markings on the gun are: American Arms Inc NKC Mo Waterfowl Special 12G 3 1/2 CAM 89 KG 1650 It has a Full and Improved Cylinder chokes installed.

January 8, 2012, 04:18 PM	#7
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Look on the bottom of the barrels the proof marks will tell you country of orign. If Italy then there is a date of manufacture code stamped on them.

January 8, 2012, 04:55 PM	#8
mitchntx Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 358	I see the circled double star with PSF. So that means its Italian made I see a BC so that tells me it's made in 1993. Correct?

January 8, 2012, 05:30 PM	#10
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Mitchntx the BC is 1993 and the PSF with the circle & star is from the Gardone & Brescia proof house. It is the finish proof for firearms for sale. No my Franchi the right side of the barrel shows American Arms and on the left side is L. Franchi, is there any markings on the left side of the barrel?

January 8, 2012, 06:08 PM	#13
3kgt2nv Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: hudson valley NY Posts: 517	ok with that being said about length i will concede the issue as I am able to admit i am not correctly informed.

January 8, 2012, 06:27 PM	#14
mitchntx Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 358	School me on chokes ... are they manufacturer specific? Would a 12G choke work in any 12g?

January 8, 2012, 06:29 PM	#15
3kgt2nv Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: hudson valley NY Posts: 517	usually model specific. But different ones may fit different models. a quick look at manufacturers website should tell what style chokes will fit

January 8, 2012, 06:31 PM	#16
SurplusShooter Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: Upstate,New york Posts: 308	What about the CZ mallared a very good and well priced gun. I have shot trap with one and am fond of its preformence.

January 8, 2012, 06:32 PM	#17
mitchntx Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 358	So what I'm reading is I need an American Arm Inc., 12 gauge, Water Fowl special chokes. I bet they have those at Wal-Mart ...

January 8, 2012, 06:59 PM	#19
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Give TruLock or Briely a call for chokes, they have chokes for every mfgr. I found a post on shotgunworld referencing a Amercan Arms o/u and the note was that the o/u's were made by Fausti till 1998.

January 8, 2012, 07:12 PM	#20
mitchntx Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 358	ooof ... Thanks, doods!

January 8, 2012, 07:33 PM	#21
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Give TruLock or Briely a call for chokes, they have chokes for every mfgr. I suspect Briley doesn't trust American Arms' screw-in choke consistency. For American Arms replacement screw-ins, they recommend: Chokes for your gun will have to be custom made by using one of your factory chokes as a sample. We can duplicate that choke to any constriction you want flush or extended.

January 9, 2012, 12:10 PM	#25
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Whenever I have heard barrel length discussed, the focus has always been on balance and swing dynamics. Pete, my friend, you've hit the nail squarely on the head. Except, you forgot mention one thing, a longer barrel puts your muzzle a little closer to the target.