Over/Under Shotgun….basic

[Nathan]

If I wanted a basic or basic plus shotgun for fun at the sporting clays range and a bit of light bird/squirrel hunting, what do you suggest?

Definitely looking under $1000, but cheaper would be better.

[Schlitz 45]

I wanted the same & for $1000 had it narrowed down to a Weatherby Orion or a Franchi Instinct (I like a Prince of Wales stock) went with the Franchi & very happy with it. The Orion just didn’t feel solid in my hands & stock was to glossy for me. Came in a nice case with choke tubes. The $2,500 Browning Citori comes in a cardboard box.
https://www.franchiusa.com/over-unde...uns/instinct-l

[Henneman]

I have a Weatherby Orion that I have used for many years. These used to be made by SKB in Japan, then were sourced to Italy then Turkey. I am not familiar with the latter iterations but SKBs, under their own label or the Weatherby name, are very nice and I see them for sale frequently under $1K. A used Browning Citori is a good bet too if you can find one.

[Nathan]

Those are both nice options. Thanks. Anything else?

[Blindstitch]

I went with a used Browning Citori bought at a gun club. Saved a lot on a 3 year old shotgun.

If I had to do it again and couldn't afford to go Browning or Beretta. I have seen a few CZ's in person and if they would loosen up with use should be great. I red a lot of reviews on broken Stevens 555 and Mossberg silver reserves although someone must be getting good ones. And the Stoeger always feels like holding a 2x4 but at a very modest price these days. My dad still wants one of those. In synthetic stock it could even be used to paddle the canoe if the other paddles are lost.

Take everyones suggestion and go feel up some nice guns. Just because it's good doesn't me you like its fit.

[bladesmith 1]

If you can't find a used Browning go with a Tristar. A good, well built gun.

[bamaranger]

I've been on the prowl for a sub $1k o/u myself, having come to the conclusion that such a rig might be the ideal turkey gun due to the ability to shoulder and select two loads and two chokes on an incoming gobbler. Browning and CZ have both introduced stubby o/u guns recently for just that market.

In my use of such a gun, it would not rack up a high round count, though I'd hope a goodly number of gobblers. A gun used even a wee bit on clay birds would see a much more shooting. But extended durability is not my major concern. What does matter is that the gun would be properly regulated, with both barrels patterning acceptably close to point of aim. When I had this conversation with a shotgun savy pals, the response was "That's why you buy a Browning". One might find a used Citori through a private sale for sub $1K, but I doubt it. Forget about a Cynergy at that price.

That leaves the CZ and all its Turkish relatives; the Savage, Mossberg, ATI, maybe some others. The only way to determine how well that breed and ones example might be regulated, is the pattern board and a roll of the dice. I see a small number of the CZ's Reapers (the gobbler gun) showing up used on the sale boards, and I suspect the reason is they do not pass the purchasers patterning standards. Thus, the jury's still out, I've not made a purchase. I finished gobbler season last year with a 30 yr old fixed choke M/F Lanber, a 2-3/4" gun that is well regulated and the Full barrel prints remarkably tight. Once the leaves come out, it is likely more than enough gun for my use in the spring. But if I could come up with an O/U that I knew was regulated, with 3" chamber and worth less than my old 4WD, I'd buy it.

[MarkCO]

I have kids on my HS trap team that have bought SKBs, Orions and CZ. The SKBs, because they sponsor the USClayTarget league. Nice set of features, but they don't last. Out of half a dozen, 5 have had problems and 4 have gone back to SKB for work. Mind you that some of these kids are shooting 400 rounds a week for 6 months straight.

The Orions, made in Turkey now, are very good and have held up. If I wanted a sub $2K O/U it would be one of those or a CZ.

I have a lot of shotguns, including 2 "budget 12G O/Us" that basically sit in a corner waiting for a gun buy back. Totally worn out and not worth fixing. My wife's step-dad just gave my youngest a Japan made CD 20g Skeet O/U. It does not have a lot of rounds on it, but only one barrel fires, will have to take a look. But that is the main problem with the imports...cheap springs. Next is not properly mated actions. The thing you can count on with CZ and Weatherby, is they will come through on customer service.

[Nathan]

Anybody have experience with the Savage 555? Looks like what I’m looking for. I need to see it and the Weatherby in person.

[FITASC]

AKUS is a top tier Turkish maker who brands for others - I would look for one made by them. My S&W Elite Gold SxS was - and that eventually became the Dickinson sold through Cabela's.

[bladesmith 1]

The Tristar is a decent gun.

[Nathan]

Anybody try one of these?

Mossberg

[stinkeypete]

My opinion is that the best budget over and under costing less than $1,000 is a semi-auto. Unless you got a heck of a deal on a used Browning Citori or Beretta 686.

Here is my reasoning:
If you're asking this question online, you're probably not well acquainted with over and unders and like the look. That's okay! Here are some of my talking points:

A 686 or Citori will run about 30,000 rounds before it needs service. Gunsmiths that can do that service are plentiful and parts are common world wide. These guns can run over 100,000 rounds. You will not wear it out.

The CZ and Tristar and other importers are sourcing guns out of Turkey because (among other things) the Turkish Lira has been catastrophically devalued and the skilled labor is now about one fourteenth as expensive as it was a decade ago.

One of the big differences between a $2,400 Beretta/Browning and $900 Turkish gun is quality control. If you're lucky, you can get a great value and very solid shotgun right out of the box. If you're not lucky, you had best go with the company with the best warranty and reputation for service- because you might be sending that gun back to the factory several times to get problems ironed out. I have heard from fellas in both camps over at ShotgunWorld. Service: CZ-Outstanding. Tristar-Really Great.

Looking inside, you'll see that the B guns are machined like swiss watches. This level of quality is also applied to the sear and hammer and trigger assembly. You will have a good smooth trigger pull. The firing pins are built with the expectation they will go 30,000 rounds.

The $900 guns are built for the average hunter who does not know that an 8 pound trigger pull is making them pull shots and we only expect it to shoot 250 rounds per year (or less. I bet the average guy only shoots a couple of boxes a year.)

Value- if you buy a used Citori or 686 for $1200, you can sell it in 3 years for $1400 or more if you take any sort of care of it because people trust it won't go bad. They don't. Your $900 shotgun you can resell for $350 because it no longer has any warranty and people know they do stop working.

Now, the most important thing about a shotgun is how it fits, because you aim by looking, not by aiming like a rifle. It must fit.

With an over and under, unless you are lucky, you must be very picky about which stock you use. The Browning is a neutral cast and is a bit heavier, the Beretta has a bit of cast and is lighter. I shoot a Syren which has even more cast, a very short length of pull, and a monte-carlo stock. Because it FITS ME.

A semi-auto is much much easier to get a proper fit, because it's "modular" in some ways. They have shim kits that .. well, you know. They adjust the cast and drop.

That idea of the modularity applies to the trigger group, as well.
If you buy a $600 semi-auto, expect to pay $85 to get a trigger job done. Someplace like https://www.thefirearmsspecialists.com/

You're not shipping the receiver for a trigger job (over/under) just the trigger group. HUGE difference in shipping cost and hassle.

There are lots of solid semi-autos in the sub $900 category. NOT Beretta or Browning, by the way!
Decide if you want gas or recoil operation and... Tristar is well regarded, so is.. Impala. See the video by Randy Wakeman.. I trust this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Qhnl8GL4U

So.. to be harsh.. a cheap over and under is like a VW beetle with a fiberglass ferarri conversion kit on top of it. It looks cool, but it's not a sports car. And only kids are fooled!

Do I have a cheap Turkish shotgun? Yes. But I can do my own trigger job, can gunsmith the entire receiver, and have many really nice backup guns that are joys to shoot and carry. My side by side is just plain cheap fun and I got mine used for $500 from my neighbor. But he had a couple hundred rounds through it without trouble, I knew he was not selling me a problem child.

[Nathan]

I guess I see it a bit different.

I have handled my share of semiauto hunting shotguns. They swing odd.

I have handled a few over/unders. They all swung basically ok to me. Sure, some triggers are better. Some are worse. Few triggers are so bad as to be unusable.

My quest is a basic over/under to see if I like shooting clays. I have shot quite a few clays informally, but they were not thrown like the big clubs throw them. I just want to shoot a round of trap, skeet, sporting clays with a friend. I may go out once or shoot a round a month.

Sure, if I dive in and shoot a weekly club match, I’ll probably dive in and buy a decent lifetime shotgun. If I shoot a round a year, I suspect all but the crappiest Turkish shorty will work.

[Blindstitch]

I might be wrong but I thought it was the 555 that was having problems with broken firing pins. Could be wrong.
I'm not one to bash Savage/Stevens. My first side by side was a Savage Fox made in 1986ish and it did a good job. Still does but my citori does a better job with steel and removable chokes. If I go somewhere pheasant hunting and it's duck season and ducks might be there steel will be used.

[stinkeypete]

Don't bash a company, bash $900 over-and-unders.
That's like bashing the Tata Nano ($4,000 new car) because it's a Tata, or because it's made in India. No, it's because you can't build a good car for $4,000.

The Stevens are made by KOFS, in Turkey. Not Savage.

If you get a chance to handle the inexpensive over and under, check over the trigger pull. Look for smooth, and if you can hang the gun by it's trigger and it won't fire by the weight of the gun, the trigger is FAR too heavy. Should be about 4 to 6 pounds.

Make sure the warranty is good and shoot it lots, right away. It's most likely to show troubles in the first 250 rounds. Remember, you're the QC program!

You definitely can get lucky, definitely can get a good deal. Or you send it back for repairs, which might not be too bad for the price savings you get.

[natman]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Anybody try one of these?

Mossberg

I used to work in a gunshop that sold Mossberg Silver Reserves. It used to take me 20 minutes for each gun to clean out all the machining grit from the receiver and the barrels enough so that the gun could be assembled. That doesn't count what must have been inside the lockwork, which I didn't clean.

Mossberg Silver Reserve, Stoeger doubles, Baikal doubles. Double guns are expensive to make and if you try to make them too inexpensive you have to sacrifice quality as these have proven.

My advice if you want to buy new would be to buy a quality pump for $600 rather than a $600 double. Or get a good used Browning or SKB.

[Nathan]

It’s interesting. I’m getting a lot of advice on here that is probably going to land me a better gun.

That said, I’m really looking for pretty cheap here.

A few years ago Stoeger had a poor reputation for shootability. I handled one then and that seemed pretty accurate. I really don’t know because I don’t know much about over unders.

So I e been handling a few over the last week or so.

Well, the new Stoegers seem half decent. The Legacy?? Pointer’s I handled were pretty crummy, but not unusable. I handled a 555 and pull weight was different between the 2 barrels…not good. Although, I think that might be adjustable on those. So maybe just an adjustment issue.

I handled a Franchi and a Sigarms made in Italy….clearly better, but expensive.

Looked up Yidiz…..really $7000 Turkish shotguns!

I’m probably in the Tristar, CZ, Mossberg, Stoeger, Weatherby market. We’ll see. Nothing is available, so there is that. Need to look through the safe and see what to trade. I have 3 lowers to trade, so that would be a start!

Also, got a tip from a local guy that seemed to be pretty sharp and wasn’t totally full of crap. He seemed to be an aficionado of low end over unders. He suggested a steel receiver sporting model to help with the recoil. Seems like those run 7.5-8.5lbs vs the 6-7lb field models. Is that good advice?

Also, why extended chokes vs flush chokes?

Thanks for the help.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Nathan

I’m probably in the Tristar, CZ, Mossberg, Stoeger, Weatherby market. We’ll see. Nothing is available, so there is that. Need to look through the safe and see what to trade. I have 3 lowers to trade, so that would be a start!

Also, why extended chokes vs flush chokes?

First, I will say that I totally agree with @stinkeypete's comments above, but I also understand you want an O/U. That said, the weighted magazine tube caps can be used to make a single barrel semi-auto swing like an O/U.

I see your list of 5, and taking everything into account, I'd suggest the narrowing of that list to the CZ and Weatherby, especially if you find you don't like what you choose, those hold value much better.

Weight is always a benefit to soak up felt recoil, but less desirable walking fields.

Extended chokes are easier to change and check to make sure they are tight.

[GE-Minigun]

Shooting skeet, sporting and 5-stand for the last 30 years…cheap, good, reliable are not in the same sentence. Yes, you mention you are only shooting one round a year…sporting maybe, skeet and 5-stand I think you will shoot more…only for the reason they are so much faster to shoot a round than sporting, so if you’ve driven an hour or more, I think you would want to “make the most of it” if you know what I mean. With that said and if it were my money and it isn’t I’d get a Weatherby Orion Sporting, there are some on Gunbroker now for under $1k. Buddy has one with a couple thousand through it and the only issue he’s had with it, the second shot not firing when the temp is below freezing, we’ve since fixed the issue. We think the factory grease was getting stiff…we removed the stock and sprayed the trigger assembly with break cleaner then some CLP…been 100% since. Whatever you decide the only advice I can give you is DO NOT purchase a gun with barrels less than 28”. If you decide later that you like the game and want to, as you mention…”get a life time gun” you will have a hard time selling it as the barrel length is not that desirable.

[Nathan]

@GE-Minigun…

I totally agree with you if I were driving an hour or particularly interested in sporting clays, skeet, trap or 5 stand…..but I live 5 min away and it will take me several hours of study to determine even where to stand when trying this out. I’m that much of a greenhorn.

That said, I’ve been involved in a fair amount of throw and shoot by hand, decent thrower, up to professional trap house. I usually do ok. So, I expect I can learn.

That said, this is driven by a buddy who bought his dream Beretta and it sits unfired by him. It is too short for me. My hope is to invite him over for a round of something monthly after work.

[GE-Minigun]

Understand.
Knowing where to stand is not that important, how to stand is (later conversation), in a nutshell you want to face where you are breaking the target. Sporting, skeet and 5-stand have stations for where you stand, don’t think about it too much now, it will come. Best thing to do is it let people you’re shooting with know it’s your first time and would rather not shoot first…word of advice, you WILL get everyone and their brother giving you advice, some good, but a lot bad. 5-stand and sporting are pretty much stand against the rail or at it. With 5-stand, look at the shooting menu card and look in the field for the traps you will be shooting, hopefully someone else will be shooting those, if not you at least know where the bird will be coming from. Sporting is the same…watch the guy(s) in front of you. Do not take this wrong…it sounds like you’re thinking way to much about it…the gun I can understand, but the actually shooting is the easy part. If you happen to be in the northern part of VA, let me know…I’m more than happy to help you out.

[MarkCO]

Do not take this wrong…it sounds like you’re thinking way to much about it…the gun I can understand, but the actually shooting is the easy part.

Yep. I have kids on my team that I constantly tell them to stop thinking and just throw your hands towards the bird. For some, that works and they start breaking birds. Lots of layers, but to get started on the actual game @Nathan, don't overthink it.

[Nathan]

There has been a slight change in conditions….I’m shooting for $1300 max…..came into some monies.

That said, I’m torn between ATA SP Supersport (Lifetime Warranty), CZ Redhead Premier Target, Weatherby Orion Sporting, TT-15 Sporting…hmm

Is there something else to consider?

Obviously, I’m looking for used Beretta and Browning guns, but usually they are just way out of my price range.

[MarkCO]

CZ Redhead Premier Target, Weatherby Orion Sporting

Those two are still what I'd suggest.