Why didn't modernized Hi Powers ever catch on?

[WVsig]

I'm interested in picking one up to either build up or just to shoot.....

How do you recommend getting into a Hi Power? I see them for:

$400 - well used surplus

$600 - slightly improved surplus

$800 ish new in box

Any preference? I would like to end up with a BHP under $1000 with a good trigger, extended safety, some grip treatment and decent sights

Used pistols are the way to go. Be patient. The best days for VG Israeli surplus guns is sadly over. Mach1 and CDI on Gunbroker have some but they are not the best examples. They have stayed in the same price range but what you are getting for the $$$ has gone down IMHO.

This is a decent MKII which has been reparked and would make a great candidate for a reblue. It is all original and matching in VG condition. $475



You could send this to Don Williams and get his street package + one of his custom thumb safeties for $475 + $475 + $ 65 for the thumb safety but you are not going to get a full trigger job or a front strap stippling.

In order to get that you can step up to the Tactical Package which will get you everything you want but it would cost you $475 + $1180.

http://www.theactionworks.com/browning-hi-power/

The best route is to be patient keep cash on hand to pounce on the gun you really want and buy a VG to LNIB commercial BHP for $450 to $600. From there do the work. If it is going to be a high round count shooter get a MKIII because it will hold up better to high round counts, 25,000+. Early BHPs might or might not last that long.

[T. O'Heir]

"...the BHP was one of (albeit the main) wonder-nine..." The BHP is the original "wonder-nine". Suffered from "Cooperism" and NIH.
It doesn't need all the daft "modern" crappola.
"...magazine disconnect was part of the French contract..." Was a European police requirement. Not just French. Wasn't called a Browning anything anywhere but North America either. P-35 in Europe.

[WVsig]

"...the BHP was one of (albeit the main) wonder-nine..." The BHP is the original "wonder-nine". Suffered from "Cooperism" and NIH.
It doesn't need all the daft "modern" crappola.
"...magazine disconnect was part of the French contract..." Was a European police requirement. Not just French. Wasn't called a Browning anything anywhere but North America either. P-35 in Europe.

Yes many in Europe referred to the BHP as the P-35 but the Browning Hi Power Automatic Pistol as not just a name for North America. They did not carry the Browning Arms rollmark because Browning Arms Co was the importer for North American not Europe but Brownings name was certainly attached to the pistol.

The FN pistols in Europe did have the "Browning Patent Depose" rollmark. Another thing to remember is that every JMB pistol design had been a leap forward for the automatic pistol. FN and Colt understood this. As someone else mentioned by the time of JMBs death FN and Colt had divided the world into 2 markets where each has exclusive rights to manufacture and market JMB design and patented pistols. Each would honor and protect the others patents.

Colt passed on the BHP design which is why they were hard to get in the US until Browning Arms Co became the importer in the 50s. Prior to that the BHPs in the US were European bring backs from WWII.

Another cool fact is that the BHP has the distinction of being the only service pistol issued by both Axis and Allied forces in WWII. The Germans took over the factory at Herstal and started pumping out pistols using the occupied labor. They removed the mag disconnect to help speed production. These guns are among the worst examples ever made. Some people claim the occupied workers sabotaged the pistols with poor workmanship others believe that the speed of production cause poor results. I assume a little of both is most likely true.

The Browning name had a long standing history in Europe attached to pistols and other long arms. FN understood it and certainly marketed to it with the BHP and other pistols.

[James K]

Actually, it was the other way around. FN had sold millions of "Browning" pistols, starting with the highly popular Model 1900, and the Browning name was well known and recognized in Europe and world-wide.

The first new pistol was basically the pistol of Browning's patent; that pistol, tested by the French in 1922, had the "Browning's Patent" markings, and so did the later pistols (until fairly recent times, when the U..S. marking was changed to "Browning Arms Co." and the second use of the name was dropped), even ones made under German occupation and ones made in Canada. So the idea that the pistol was called a "Browning" only in the U.S. is not true. In fact, even though the pistol was given different official names in various countries, the users generally called it "the Browning:". That was certainly the case with both the British and the Germans. The German official nomenclature was the P.640(b) (for Belgium), but the troops ignored officialdom and called it the "Browning".

Jim

[Lexspeed]

Wow, I am a new owner of a mint 69C and am really soaking up all the great info in this thread.

[Chris_B]

When I look at my 1988 Sig P226, I see a modernized BHP.

[rodfac]

'Cause the Hi Power was right as rain as designed and built. Rod

[FairWarning]

The flood of double action wunder nines from Europe made the HP less special, and there wasn't a Browning or American cultural campaign behind it to make up for it. The HP also can't compare to the ultra-secure feeling that the 1911 has when cocked and locked. The HP would benefit from a heftier/more solid lever, which would make it a more attractive CCW option. Having said this, I love shooting my HP as much as anything, and have fired more rounds through it than any other pistol I've ever owned. It does require the most effort to rack the slide of any pistol I own however, including my .45s! I think of it as a built-in safety of sorts. Someone who is either very young or very old, or simply weak for whatever reason, couldn't rack the slide to save their lives. Or take mine.

The 1911 was unique, and there weren't many other highly regarded semi-auto .45s for a looong time. The benefit of forging its legend in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam cannot be overstated. The HP has no such legacy in the US.

[bamaranger]

I think likely because the gun culture, and the many proponents of the 1911 at it's heyday, led us down that path. Cooper, Seyfried, Chuck Taylor, all shot 1911's, and the pistol was prevalent in the competitions of the day. The custom 'smiths and accessory people responded....and we all shot Colt's instead of Brownings.

[tipoc]

A good complex question.

First, before the 1980s the U.S. was a nation of revolver shooters. Among those who shot handguns the wheelgun dominated. Semis were a smaller section of the market. Small back up semis were arguably more popular than bigger semis till late into the post war period.

Colt was the only American manufacturer to produce semis in a military caliber and that was the 1911A1 in 45 acp and 38 Super. The American public in general considered the 1911 a military sidearm. The gun in either caliber did not see widespread use in law enforcement in the U.S. That market was dominated by revolvers.

The pistol that most impressed the U.S. Army coming out of the war was the Walther P-38. So impressed were they that in 1946 when they drew up plans for a sidearm to replace the 1911 it was essentially for a gun based on features of the P-38. DA/SA guns began to be seen as much safer and modern.

Colt was the first American manufacturer to chamber a pistol in 9mm and that was with the Commander in 1948.

S&W produced and sold it's first semi-auto pistol in a military caliber in 1954. It had many of the desirable features of the P-38. Slide mounted safety/decocker, da/sa, 9mm, etc.

Other than a few war trophys few BHPs had been seen in the U.S. till the post war period.

In 1954 FN began importing the BHP into the U.S. in limited numbers.

During the 1950s and 60s war surplus rifles and handguns flooded the U.S. market. P-38s, Lugers, fine Spanish pistols, etc. most in 9mm and many times cheaper than the U.S. made products. Guns from Argentina, and Brazil, many based on the 1911 in 45 acp, also made a showing. Many of these were perfectly fine and excellent guns. If you wanted a 9mm you could get one for less than a weeks wages, often for less than the weekly grocery bill. These guns sold like hotcakes!

The BHP sold slowly but well over the years.

I'll skip a few things here, some already mentioned.

By the time the transition in law enforcement began in earnest in the 1980s the accepted doctrine on gunhandling for leos was that single action handguns were passe. The safest way and preferred way for law enforcement was da/sa, the long heavy first shot trigger pull, followed by easier single action trigger pulls, with a slide mounted decocker/safety. Firearms instructors taught this and it was almost universally accepted. The idea that a single action pistol like the 1911 or bhp was fit for police work only in elite units began to take hold. S&W semis ruled the roost till the M9 was adopted by the U.S. military than that gun began showing up in large numbers in cops holsters. The Sig too after a bit.

In a few years though the doctrine that weighed against the 1911 and the BHP, so solid, professional and sacrosanct, was overturned by the arrival of Glocks.

These guns don't need much. Improve on the trigger, better sights when needed, a better thumb safety. Over the decades there have been good smiths who can provide the features that are desired. FN itself never responded to the market as well as it could have I think. But their contracts have always been heavy on the military side.

tipoc

[FairWarning]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

I think likely because the gun culture, and the many proponents of the 1911 at it's heyday, led us down that path. Cooper, Seyfried, Chuck Taylor, all shot 1911's, and the pistol was prevalent in the competitions of the day. The custom 'smiths and accessory people responded....and we all shot Colt's instead of Brownings.

Even today, there is still a blatant anti-9mm bias among more than a few gun writers, not even counting the legions of internet types who simply believe that bigger projectile = better, and won't listen to any argument.

Again, this is part of the culture that saw the 1911 as a proven sidearm for many decades. I would definitely say that .45 hardball as used by the military is likely to be more effective than 9mm hardball, but with the SD ammo available today, 9mm is among the top tier of defensive calibers in an easy to use hi-cap platform, which is why the FBI and other agencies are starting to warm up to it again.

[mavracer]

A good complex question.

I disagree, It's quite simply a matter of the trigger.

I haven't read all the responses but quite simply it takes a lot of work to get a BHP trigger as good as a average 1911.

[tipoc]

I disagree, It's quite simply a matter of the trigger.

I haven't read all the responses but quite simply it takes a lot of work to get a BHP trigger as good as a average 1911.

It'll never get as good as the 1911. But name another gun that is?

It also doesn't take all that much work either. Replacement of the original trigger groups in Glocks and S&W M&Ps is common these days.

No, I think it's more that it was never adopted by the U.S. military or any significant number of police departments. In the U.S. that's what it takes. That also would of solved the issue of the trigger-would have been a whole lot easier to smooth them out as it would of become common to do so.

When Glocks first showed up they had wretched triggers. Far worse than the BHP. Same is true for many others.

FN has never really made an effort to smooth the triggers out for the import market unless a military contract called for it.

For decades FN did not upgrade the safeties or the sights, that was done only after sales of the gun had dropped off big time, and in an effort to recover market share.

The trigger was not a big obstacle in Europe, Africa, the mid east or Asia where the BHP and it's clones have sold very well over the decades.

It ain't the trigger.

tipoc

[UncleEd]

When it came to the U.S. government purchases of the BHP, there were some custom guns for the FBI and during Viet Nam War a slew were picked up by the CIA.

As to a heavy trigger, with all the work done on the 1911 since WWII, American users of the 1911 became fairy wimps. (DA revolver shooters retained their manhood. )

[tipoc]

Yep and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team used them and a few SWAT teams and units here and there. But never enough to push it forward.

tipoc

[Chris_B]

My pop has two FEGs, one of which is the direct BHP clone. Wonderful and smooth triggers. Both still have the mag disconnect.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by UncleEd

Remember that right up until a few years ago, the BHP was being used around the world in more countries by more armies and police than any other pistol.

CZ can and does make the same claim. The big difference is that the actual total number of countries using the weapon wasn't that great, and none of them had large militaries or used large numbers of those weapons. The High Power was widely used during WWII by the Axis (after they invaded Belgium); and a clone (Inglis) was used by some of the Allies. 9mm wasn't a common round among the allies, either -- but the Germans liked it.

The United Kingdom continued to use them after WWII, and some were used in the Middle East by a number of ME armies -- but so were many other guns, including copies of Berettas and later copies of CZs. With the 70's, other guns (SIGs, Berettas, and Glocks) were far more popular and far more widely used than the High Power.

The High Power is a good solid 9mm gun. But so are the guns offered by the competition, most of which were available for very good (and likely much lower) prices starting in the 70s.

The BHP never made it big in the U.S. LEO market -- arguably for the same reason the 1911 didn't: it was single action. (It took a while for LEOs to get over their infatuation with revolvers, too, and they still don't seem to like SA weapons.)

In Europe and South America, civilian handguns were limited by law or culture/custom to .380 or less. The Communist Bloc never went above 9x18 in their militaries, and in some countries, 9mm was a military-only caliber.

FNH, the owner of the BHP design (which was created and owned by FNH and much later marketed by Browning, primarily in the U.S.) seemed more focused on military rifles, carbines, sub-machine and machine guns, and continues to be heavily focused on those types of weapons. They're now making some great handguns, but aren't pushing them as strongly as some companies push their weapons -- probably because the military weapons are their bread and butter.

[tipoc]

If you go over here...

https://forums.1911forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

You can see a good many gunsmith worked on P35s as well as some of the factory variations.

Take a look at the pics and particularly "Some BHP leather".

tipoc

[rodfac]

WvSig, thanks for the tips..I do like those low-riding S&W sights. I've got a first rate .40 S&W BHP that's as accurate as I can hold.

I'm looking to add a 9mm. I carried one for half of my first tour in Vietnam in 1970...flying FAC missions near An Loc, lll Corps. The Berets that I lived with in the B camp kept me in ammunition and I got them Air Force issue 5.56 ammo which they seemed to prefer for their sojourns into the bush. I'd give a lot to have that old Browning back on my hip.

Thanks again, Rod

[Kevin Rohrer]

To answer the OP, I think the the gun was never modernized is because it is made in Europe, which has no history of practical handgun shooting and because access there is so restricted. If the gun had been built in the US by an American company from the beginning, it would be running parallel to the 1911. The BHP trigger' long reset needs fixed, though...

[Pilot]

My personal, uneducated opinion, is that folks just aren't interested in single action hammer fired pistols. Yeah SIG has that option on some of their pistols I believe(?), and maybe a few CZ models, but its a plastic and striker fired world out there these days.

CZ sells every all metal, hammer fired pistol they make. Yes, they make polymer, and are coming out with a striker fired, polymer pistol, but their traditional hammer fired guns are still in very high demand.

[ttarp]

CZ sells every all metal, hammer fired pistol they make. Yes, they make polymer, and are coming out with a striker fired, polymer pistol, but their traditional hammer fired guns are still in very high demand.

I've seen several CZ's at the store and at the range, but I've never seen a single action CZ in person. Yes I know they make and sell them, but every CZ I've laid eyes on is DA/SA, so I'm fairly confident my point still stands.

[jmf552]

Bill DeShivs: I get what you're saying about hollow points in the 80's, that's when they became popular, but FWIW, my Dad EDC'ed a BHP in about 1970 because he was getting credible death threats (long story for another time). He loaded it with Israeli-made JHPs that were higher-than-normal pressure, essentially pre-+Ps. They came in a yellow box. The box said they were for pistols, so they weren't the infamous Uzi ammo. He got them at a local police supply store. So they were around way before the 80's.

[tipoc]

Just on the original supposition of this thread...

FN has made improvements to the gun over the decades. From the Mark I to the variations of the Mark 3 which were introduced in the late 1980s. The latter featuring improved sights (quite good fixed ones actually) an enlarged safety, differently shaped ejection port, feeds jhp reliably, etc. The introduction of guns in 40 S&W was also done though that may not have been the best idea. It's been brought out in a double action model to try to get a share of the leo market in the 90s. There has been more.

The BHP has always sold well in the U.S. since 1954. I don't mean "well" like McDonald's hamburgers but well like it's always been there and not in danger of going under or being too hard to find. That latter may be changing as FN has been moving to selling other pistols.

There are plenty of pistol smiths who work on it. There always have been. The BHP has been the "King of the nines" for along time.

Some of the gunsmiths who work on it are:

Nighthawk Custom:

http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/browning-hi-power

Robar

https://robarguns.com/custom-weapons...ning-hi-power/

Cylinder and Slide:

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/bhptoday.shtml

Jim Garthwaite

http://www.garthwaite.com/services/b...ustom-work.php

Morris Custom

http://www.morriscustompistols.com/b...%20hipower.htm

and a whole lot more.

tipoc

[WVsig]

FN has made improvements to the gun over the decades. From the Mark I to the variations of the Mark 3 which were introduced in the late 1980s.

There is no MK I designation. There are MKIIs and MKIIIs no MK I.

You are right that the pistol has evolved over the years but honestly the stock gun from FN is a bit dated compared to other guns. I love it but I also see it for what it is.