We Were Soldiers M16s

Nightcrawler · March 21, 2002, 07:22 PM

In We Were Soldiers, which takes place in 1965, the troops have M16s. The weapon I saw had the original three pronged flash hider, but also had a forward assist. Which model would this be, exactly, and is it accurate for the actual battle?

Nevada Fitch · March 21, 2002, 08:59 PM

I don't think the rifles of that time had the foward assist. However I guess it would have been more difficult to come up with enough originals to shoot the movie.

Southla1 · March 21, 2002, 09:04 PM

unless I am mistaken it was in the 70's that the M-16A2 (forward assist came out). In the 60's the M-16 had a 3 prong flash hider, no forward assist and a 3 position selector switch: fire,safe and auto. The auto position was by far the most fun!

Kaylee · March 21, 2002, 09:48 PM

FWIW, the Armalite site has a training film for the "XM16E1" produced in 1966. The weapons have a forward assist:

http://www.armalite.com/streamingMed...eamingMain.htm

Now, by way of disclamer, I wasn't even BORN yet, much less there, so take it for what it's worth.

-K

fiend · March 21, 2002, 09:50 PM

The first m-16 riles had no forward assist. Not sure about flash hider.

A couple years into the war(not sure how many) the A1 came in with the forward assist.

I believe in the 80's we switched to the A2(Atleast my dad told me thats when his NG unit was issue A2's)

Nightcrawler · March 21, 2002, 09:53 PM

Here's how I understand it:

-The original Stoner AR-15 and AR-10 lacked a forward assist.
-The first Colt produced AR-15s also lacked them.
-By the time the M16A1 was developed, the forward assist was standard. (I don't know about the pre-A1 M16s that saw use with special forces and others in Vietnam in the 62-64 time period.)

I have an M16A1 in the Guard; it has a forward assist. The A2 is different in having a heavier barrel, different flash hider, easier to adjust rear sights, slightly longer stock, and different grip, as well as the 3 round burst trigger group.

Remember, though, that Colt SP-1s produced right up until 1994 or so lacked forward assists as well.

Any Vets or M16 historians care to chime in?

Kaylee · March 21, 2002, 09:57 PM

PS .. "friend of a friend" here...
My boss has someone working with him who's immediate relative (father, uncle, not sure) was at the battle... sent him a copy of the "We Were Soliders" book with about a page worth of dedication on the inner cover.

If you don't get an answer, I'll see if I can get track back through the grapevine for ya.

-K

Nightcrawler · March 21, 2002, 10:01 PM

Thank you, Kaylee. You are a princess in a world of dragons.

JimmyDee · March 21, 2002, 10:06 PM

The three prong flash hider and forward assist are correct. By the late 60s (I'm fuzzy here, maybe in 1968) the three prong flash hider - which had been used to pop metal strapping - was replaced, although it seems I saw a few of them in stateside armories after 1970.

GUTTERbOY · March 21, 2002, 11:09 PM

My understanding is that forward assist appeared on the M16A1, which was first introduced in 1967- two years after Ia Drang. I picked up on this while watching the movie, also. If anyone knows differently, please correct me- this knowledge is based only on a bit of Internet research.

Jeff White · March 21, 2002, 11:13 PM

On November 4th 1963 the Army awarded Colt's a contract for the purchase of M16 and XM16E1 rifles. This contract originally called for 104,000 rifles. 85,000 for the Army and Marine Corps. These had a Colt designed bolt assist and cost $121.84 each. This rifle was designated the XM16E1. The remaining 19,000 rifles were designated the M16 and cost $112.00 each. They went to the Air Force as the Air Force felt that there was no need for a bolt closure device and refused to accept rifles with one.

There were 11 changes made from the original AR15 which had been bought in small quantities for various test programs. These changes were:

1. Black impregnated furniture. The original AR15 had a mottled, translucent (you could see the fiber in it) brown finish to it that was painted green on some models. The paint wore off easily and the Army specified a black coloring agent be mixed into the plastic.

2. A chamber dimensional change.

3. A charging handle redesign. The original, a serrated .45 degree shape was found to be not as ergonomic as it could have been so the charging handle was changed to the "T" shaped design which provided a more positive grip.

4. The front sling swivel was coated with black plastic.

5. The firing pin was lightened to minimize the danger of a slam-fire.

6. Bolt closure device. Added to the XM16E1 only.

7. Rifling twist was changed from 1-14 to 1-12 inches.

8. Bolt release was slightlty modified to make the part more durable.

9. The flash suppressor was redesigned to beef up the 3 open prongs and make it more durable.

10. The original Colt designed 20 round "waffle" magazine was changed from steel to aluminum to prevent rust.

11. The front takedown was changed from being fully removable to a captive design.

The Army did not intend to make the M16 standard issue. In fact it didn't want the M16 at all. This contract was meant to be a one time buy of the rifle to equip Airborne and Special Forces units.

When the Airmobile division was formed and tested at Ft Benning GA, it was designated the 11th Air Assault Division and was given the patch and lineage of the old 11th Airborne Division of WWII fame. IIRC one battalion in each brigade was still airborne capable under their original MTOE. Just before deploying to Vietnam the division was reflagged the 1st Cavalry Division. The 1st Cav colors had been retired after Korea. Most of the troopers who fought in the Ia Drang valley had pioneered the airmobile concept with the 11th Air Assault Division.

The rifle that was carried by the 1st Cav troopers in the battle of the Ia Drang was the XM16E1. The Army didn't change the designation to M16A1 until 28 February 1967. There were 10 modifications done to the XM16E1 before it became the M16A1. They were:

1. Gas tube material changed to stainless steel.

2. The bolt hardness specification was revised.

3. The bolt carrier finish was changed from electrolyzed to chrome plated inerior/parkerized exterior.

4. The firing pin retaining pin was changed from a machined part to a cheaper cotter pin.

5. The bolt catch was redesigned again.

6. The disconnector was redesigned.

7. A protective boss was added around the magazine catch.

8. A new buffer was put in around December 1966.

9. A new flash suppressor was put on all new production rifles beginning in January 1967. This was the enclosed birdcage type.

10. The bolt was "shot-peened" to increase it's service life.

So everyone who wants to nitpick the rifles can write the production company. But beware, the 10 modifications between XM16E1 and M16A1 were phased in. If you see an XM16E1 in the movie with a mag fence, it may be correct as no reference I have here in front of me, gives a date for that modification. I will say that until we turned then in back in December, my Guard unit had some M16A1 rifles that began life as XM16E1s. The receivers were marked as such and then had been overstamped M16A1 at a rebuild sometime in their service life. They did have the mag fence. I'd say that to be correct all the XM16E1s in the movie should have had shiny silver colored bolt carriers, forward assists and open 3 prong flash hiders. I haven't had a chance to see it yet....

All the detail in this post comes from Edward C Ezell's excellent book

THE BLACK RIFLE M16 RETROSPECTIVE

Jeff

Nightcrawler · March 21, 2002, 11:54 PM

Thanks for the good info! So the weapons in the movie were correct. Cool.

Turk · March 22, 2002, 10:55 PM

JimmyDee

Your Post
The three prong flash hider and forward assist are correct. By the late 60s (I'm fuzzy here, maybe in 1968) the three prong flash hider - which had been used to pop metal strapping - was replaced, although it seems I saw a few of them in stateside armories after 1970.

Brought a chuckle to my face. In my squad squad one man was required to carry a three prong 16. Nothing worked better to break the wire around the C-rat boxes. I got in country in June of 68 and there were very few of the three prong types left.

Turk
173rd Abn Bdge (sep)

Turk · March 22, 2002, 10:55 PM

JimmyDee

Your Post
The three prong flash hider and forward assist are correct. By the late 60s (I'm fuzzy here, maybe in 1968) the three prong flash hider - which had been used to pop metal strapping - was replaced, although it seems I saw a few of them in stateside armories after 1970.

Brought a chuckle to my face. In my squad one man was required to carry a three prong 16. Nothing worked better to break the wire around the C-rat boxes. I got in country in June of 68 and there were very few of the three prong types left.

Turk
173rd Abn Bdge (sep)

yankytrash · March 22, 2002, 11:48 PM

Turk,

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that the reason the 3-prong was dropped?

Seems, the 3-prongs kept breaking from GI's opening crates with'm. Military explanation is that the 3-prong would catch on weeds, so they changed to the fully-enclosed birdcage.

Interesting little history....

Jeff White · March 22, 2002, 11:56 PM

Actually that was a big cause of bent barrels. That's if you can believe the Army's PS Magazine. No firsthand knowledge as I never saw a 3 prong flash suppressor in 74 when I enlisted. All birdcage type by then.

I'm not talking about barrels that are bent so they look like you can shoot around corners, I'm talking about barrels that look straignt, but the barrel straightness gage won't go down.

Jeff

maze51 · March 23, 2002, 12:55 AM

I found the movie to be excellent, but there were a few things of weaponry that weren't correct. Not in the M16, but the helicopters that were used for gun cover. The model used on the first insertions in Viet Nam had a B designated nomenclature, they were UH1B's. In the later part of the 60's they moved into a more powerful C model. My point is, if you watched the movie the gunship helicopters with the mini-guns and rockets were covering the LZ (landing Zone) as they were dropping the troops on the ground. As the slick (UH1H) dropped the troops the gunship B model was hovering around shooting the rockets and mini-guns. This would not have happened. The weight of the armament was so much that even the C model I flew could not hover when loaded with ammo and fuel. All LZ cover was done by passing in a circle around the LZ and shooting the perimeter for cover, not at a hover. The gunships in the movie were also carrying a 19 pod rocket launchers on each side of the helicopter which would shoot normally a 10lb warhead rocket, plus they had mini-guns. That would not have happened because of weight. The gunship would have one or the other but not both. Mini-gun ships did carry a 7 pod launcher on each side, but there was also 10,000 rounds of 7.62mm going through the mini-guns at 2400 rounds per minute, each side.

To get these gunships airborne, we would have to put the nose of the helicopter down and forward as we slide along on the skids to reach transition, which would be about 50mph. A little scary taking off sometimes, especially in higher altitude areas where the air becomes really thin if it is warm. The blades of the helicopter need thicker air to create lift if it is weighted down with fuel and ammo, which would be know as density altitude. Below is the helicopter that I flew there, I am inside the door, on the right of the picture.

EOD Guy · March 23, 2002, 08:40 AM

The M16A1 I carried in Vietnam in 1966-1967 had a forward assist.

Al Thompson · March 23, 2002, 12:55 PM

My copy of WWSOAY has the photo of Lt. Rescorla on the front. Seems to me that his rifle has the forward assist but no bead around the magazine release.

Can someone else check this on their copy?

Giz

Turk · March 23, 2002, 02:32 PM

yankytrash

Your post>

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that the reason the 3-prong was dropped?

Seems, the 3-prongs kept breaking from GI's opening crates with'm. Military explanation is that the 3-prong would catch on weeds, so they changed to the fully-enclosed birdcage.

I always wonder why the guy carrying the prong flash suppressor couldn't hit anything

maze51

From a grunt that was thankful for ARA and it was a live saver many times. A BIG THANK YOU.

Who did you fly for and what area?

Turk

maze51 · March 23, 2002, 07:20 PM

Turk,
I flew with the 192nd assault helicopter company, 10th battalion, 1st brigade. We were based out of Phan Rang Air base, which was a US Air Force base. It was really comfortable there, the Air Force lives alot better than the Army.

We flew as far north as Pleiku and Qui Nhon. We did mainly LZ drops, Medi-vac cover and convoy cover missions. Most of our LZ drops were with the 75th Charlie Rangers.

192nd Gunnies "You call, we maul"

March 21, 2002, 07:22 PM	#1
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	We Were Soldiers M16s In We Were Soldiers, which takes place in 1965, the troops have M16s. The weapon I saw had the original three pronged flash hider, but also had a forward assist. Which model would this be, exactly, and is it accurate for the actual battle? __________________ Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus

March 21, 2002, 09:53 PM	#6
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Here's how I understand it: -The original Stoner AR-15 and AR-10 lacked a forward assist. -The first Colt produced AR-15s also lacked them. -By the time the M16A1 was developed, the forward assist was standard. (I don't know about the pre-A1 M16s that saw use with special forces and others in Vietnam in the 62-64 time period.) I have an M16A1 in the Guard; it has a forward assist. The A2 is different in having a heavier barrel, different flash hider, easier to adjust rear sights, slightly longer stock, and different grip, as well as the 3 round burst trigger group. Remember, though, that Colt SP-1s produced right up until 1994 or so lacked forward assists as well. Any Vets or M16 historians care to chime in? __________________ Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus

March 21, 2002, 10:01 PM	#8
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Thank you, Kaylee. You are a princess in a world of dragons. __________________ Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus

March 21, 2002, 11:13 PM	#11
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	The Army first awarded a contract for the M16 in 1963 On November 4th 1963 the Army awarded Colt's a contract for the purchase of M16 and XM16E1 rifles. This contract originally called for 104,000 rifles. 85,000 for the Army and Marine Corps. These had a Colt designed bolt assist and cost $121.84 each. This rifle was designated the XM16E1. The remaining 19,000 rifles were designated the M16 and cost $112.00 each. They went to the Air Force as the Air Force felt that there was no need for a bolt closure device and refused to accept rifles with one. There were 11 changes made from the original AR15 which had been bought in small quantities for various test programs. These changes were: 1. Black impregnated furniture. The original AR15 had a mottled, translucent (you could see the fiber in it) brown finish to it that was painted green on some models. The paint wore off easily and the Army specified a black coloring agent be mixed into the plastic. 2. A chamber dimensional change. 3. A charging handle redesign. The original, a serrated .45 degree shape was found to be not as ergonomic as it could have been so the charging handle was changed to the "T" shaped design which provided a more positive grip. 4. The front sling swivel was coated with black plastic. 5. The firing pin was lightened to minimize the danger of a slam-fire. 6. Bolt closure device. Added to the XM16E1 only. 7. Rifling twist was changed from 1-14 to 1-12 inches. 8. Bolt release was slightlty modified to make the part more durable. 9. The flash suppressor was redesigned to beef up the 3 open prongs and make it more durable. 10. The original Colt designed 20 round "waffle" magazine was changed from steel to aluminum to prevent rust. 11. The front takedown was changed from being fully removable to a captive design. The Army did not intend to make the M16 standard issue. In fact it didn't want the M16 at all. This contract was meant to be a one time buy of the rifle to equip Airborne and Special Forces units. When the Airmobile division was formed and tested at Ft Benning GA, it was designated the 11th Air Assault Division and was given the patch and lineage of the old 11th Airborne Division of WWII fame. IIRC one battalion in each brigade was still airborne capable under their original MTOE. Just before deploying to Vietnam the division was reflagged the 1st Cavalry Division. The 1st Cav colors had been retired after Korea. Most of the troopers who fought in the Ia Drang valley had pioneered the airmobile concept with the 11th Air Assault Division. The rifle that was carried by the 1st Cav troopers in the battle of the Ia Drang was the XM16E1. The Army didn't change the designation to M16A1 until 28 February 1967. There were 10 modifications done to the XM16E1 before it became the M16A1. They were: 1. Gas tube material changed to stainless steel. 2. The bolt hardness specification was revised. 3. The bolt carrier finish was changed from electrolyzed to chrome plated inerior/parkerized exterior. 4. The firing pin retaining pin was changed from a machined part to a cheaper cotter pin. 5. The bolt catch was redesigned again. 6. The disconnector was redesigned. 7. A protective boss was added around the magazine catch. 8. A new buffer was put in around December 1966. 9. A new flash suppressor was put on all new production rifles beginning in January 1967. This was the enclosed birdcage type. 10. The bolt was "shot-peened" to increase it's service life. So everyone who wants to nitpick the rifles can write the production company. But beware, the 10 modifications between XM16E1 and M16A1 were phased in. If you see an XM16E1 in the movie with a mag fence, it may be correct as no reference I have here in front of me, gives a date for that modification. I will say that until we turned then in back in December, my Guard unit had some M16A1 rifles that began life as XM16E1s. The receivers were marked as such and then had been overstamped M16A1 at a rebuild sometime in their service life. They did have the mag fence. I'd say that to be correct all the XM16E1s in the movie should have had shiny silver colored bolt carriers, forward assists and open 3 prong flash hiders. I haven't had a chance to see it yet.... All the detail in this post comes from Edward C Ezell's excellent book THE BLACK RIFLE M16 RETROSPECTIVE Jeff

March 21, 2002, 11:54 PM	#12
Nightcrawler Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2000 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,945	Thanks for the good info! So the weapons in the movie were correct. Cool. __________________ Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus

March 21, 2002, 08:59 PM	#2
Nevada Fitch Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2000 Posts: 261	I don't think the rifles of that time had the foward assist. However I guess it would have been more difficult to come up with enough originals to shoot the movie.

March 21, 2002, 09:04 PM	#3
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	unless I am mistaken it was in the 70's that the M-16A2 (forward assist came out). In the 60's the M-16 had a 3 prong flash hider, no forward assist and a 3 position selector switch: fire,safe and auto. The auto position was by far the most fun!

March 21, 2002, 09:48 PM	#4
Kaylee Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2000 Location: The Last Homely House Posts: 1,677	FWIW, the Armalite site has a training film for the "XM16E1" produced in 1966. The weapons have a forward assist: http://www.armalite.com/streamingMed...eamingMain.htm Now, by way of disclamer, I wasn't even BORN yet, much less there, so take it for what it's worth. -K

March 21, 2002, 09:50 PM	#5
fiend Member Join Date: November 8, 2000 Posts: 55	The first m-16 riles had no forward assist. Not sure about flash hider. A couple years into the war(not sure how many) the A1 came in with the forward assist. I believe in the 80's we switched to the A2(Atleast my dad told me thats when his NG unit was issue A2's)

March 21, 2002, 09:57 PM	#7
Kaylee Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2000 Location: The Last Homely House Posts: 1,677	PS .. "friend of a friend" here... My boss has someone working with him who's immediate relative (father, uncle, not sure) was at the battle... sent him a copy of the "We Were Soliders" book with about a page worth of dedication on the inner cover. If you don't get an answer, I'll see if I can get track back through the grapevine for ya. -K

March 21, 2002, 10:06 PM	#9
JimmyDee Member Join Date: December 30, 2001 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 79	The three prong flash hider and forward assist are correct. By the late 60s (I'm fuzzy here, maybe in 1968) the three prong flash hider - which had been used to pop metal strapping - was replaced, although it seems I saw a few of them in stateside armories after 1970.

March 21, 2002, 11:09 PM	#10
GUTTERbOY Member Join Date: February 3, 2002 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 19	My understanding is that forward assist appeared on the M16A1, which was first introduced in 1967- two years after Ia Drang. I picked up on this while watching the movie, also. If anyone knows differently, please correct me- this knowledge is based only on a bit of Internet research.

March 22, 2002, 10:55 PM	#13
Turk Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2000 Location: USA Posts: 517	JimmyDee Your Post The three prong flash hider and forward assist are correct. By the late 60s (I'm fuzzy here, maybe in 1968) the three prong flash hider - which had been used to pop metal strapping - was replaced, although it seems I saw a few of them in stateside armories after 1970. Brought a chuckle to my face. In my squad squad one man was required to carry a three prong 16. Nothing worked better to break the wire around the C-rat boxes. I got in country in June of 68 and there were very few of the three prong types left. Turk 173rd Abn Bdge (sep)

March 22, 2002, 11:48 PM	#15
yankytrash Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Farnham, Va Posts: 2,183	Turk, If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that the reason the 3-prong was dropped? Seems, the 3-prongs kept breaking from GI's opening crates with'm. Military explanation is that the 3-prong would catch on weeds, so they changed to the fully-enclosed birdcage. Interesting little history.... __________________ Right turn, Clyde.

March 22, 2002, 11:56 PM	#16
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	Actually that was a big cause of bent barrels. That's if you can believe the Army's PS Magazine. No firsthand knowledge as I never saw a 3 prong flash suppressor in 74 when I enlisted. All birdcage type by then. I'm not talking about barrels that are bent so they look like you can shoot around corners, I'm talking about barrels that look straignt, but the barrel straightness gage won't go down. Jeff

March 23, 2002, 08:40 AM	#18
EOD Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Concord, CA, USA Posts: 726	The M16A1 I carried in Vietnam in 1966-1967 had a forward assist.

March 23, 2002, 12:55 PM	#19
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	My copy of WWSOAY has the photo of Lt. Rescorla on the front. Seems to me that his rifle has the forward assist but no bead around the magazine release. Can someone else check this on their copy? Giz __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

March 23, 2002, 02:32 PM	#20
Turk Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2000 Location: USA Posts: 517	yankytrash Your post> If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that the reason the 3-prong was dropped? Seems, the 3-prongs kept breaking from GI's opening crates with'm. Military explanation is that the 3-prong would catch on weeds, so they changed to the fully-enclosed birdcage. I always wonder why the guy carrying the prong flash suppressor couldn't hit anything maze51 From a grunt that was thankful for ARA and it was a live saver many times. A BIG THANK YOU. Who did you fly for and what area? Turk

March 23, 2002, 07:20 PM	#21
maze51 Member Join Date: March 3, 2002 Location: sacramento Posts: 74	Turk, I flew with the 192nd assault helicopter company, 10th battalion, 1st brigade. We were based out of Phan Rang Air base, which was a US Air Force base. It was really comfortable there, the Air Force lives alot better than the Army. We flew as far north as Pleiku and Qui Nhon. We did mainly LZ drops, Medi-vac cover and convoy cover missions. Most of our LZ drops were with the 75th Charlie Rangers. 192nd Gunnies "You call, we maul"