Primer Question

[chadflys]

So I was talking to a fellow yesterday..and in the discussion of reloading he mentioned some ammo was hard as :-) to get the primers out without a special tool or something...I'm fixing to get into this reloading thing and was wanting to know a little more about that. I remember the word boxer primed as having one crimp with the old primers being removable. I don't remember the other, but the were double crimped and often tore the bottom out while trying to remove the old primver. Does anyone know more about what I'm trying to figure out? I have a lot of Centurion made M193 that is supposed to be boxer primed. Am I going to be able to reload it? I was under the assupmtion that all brass was reloadable and the steal cases were not???? And that the military brass was better than civil???

Thanks,

Chad

[Old Grump]

Military primers have crimped in primers that make it difficult to reload without a little muscle and a pocket reamer. You are probably referring to Berdan primers that have a double flash hole and can't be reloaded without a Berdan decapper and Berdan primers. If you have them toss them or sell them for brass.

[Mike Irwin]

You could be trying to figure two things out....

First, the primers...

Most American made and some European made ammo has a Boxer type primer which has a single central flash hole in the case head. This is a lot easier to reload because it's easy to punch the primer out.

Other European or Asian ammo uses what is known as a Berdan primer. Berdan priming generally uses two or more off center flash holes, which makes it very difficult if not impossible to decap using American style decapping dies (which are designed to work with Boxer primers).

Decapping those generally involves using a device the prys the primer out from the outside. A lot more work.

The other component is with military ammunition. Military ammo often has a crimp designed to keep the primer from popping out while it's feeding through automatic weapons.

You can often punch the old primer out without too much trouble, but you have to remove the crimp before you can seat a new primer. That's done with either a swaging tool or a cutter.

Generally American-made commercial ammo is not crimped.

If you are trying to reload American military ammo, though, plan on it having a crimp that needs to be removed.

[wjkuleck]

Possibly the most important discriminant between different types of cartridge cases is the priming system. "Boxer" primers have the anvil integral to the primer. Boxer primers are thus comprised of the primer cup, the primer compound, and the anvil (the "foil seal," actually paper, is present solely to facilitate manufacture, and performs the same function as the waxed paper found between hamburger patties). "Berdan" primers have no anvil; the anvil is formed as part of the cartridge case, at the bottom of the primer pocket.

The Boxer design allows the incorporation of a single, central flash hole in the center of the primer pocket. The Berdan design, however, puts the anvil in the center of the pocket, so the primer flash is transmitted to the powder in the case via two holes on opposite sides of the anvil. The Boxer primer allows convenient depriming by use of a steel rod run down through the central flash hole. The Berdan primer, on the other hand, must either be forced out hydraulically (a messy process at best) or pierced and pried out.

Some primers, particularly military primers, are crimped to secure the primer in place (particularly for machine gun use). This crimp is generally a ring formed around the periphery of the primer pocket. Primer crimps generally do not pose a challenge during depriming, but they must be removed by chamfering or swadging to allow a new primer to be seated.

Military cartridge cases are often made with thicker walls than their "civilian" counterparts. The military is more interested in the cartridge holding up to the abuse of machine gun fire, while civilians appreciate the lower cost associated with the use of less brass per case. For the reloader, military cases generally have somewhat smaller capacity due to their thicker walls, and thus powder charges must be adjusted correspondingly. The thicker-walled military case may allow more reloads per case before the case fails. However, other factors such as case neck cracking may deadline a case before it has stretched and thinned to the point of unuseableness. Is military "better"? Not necessarily, but it can be stated with confidence that military is usually different. Note that much of the ammo coming in from Central Europe, in particular, is packaged in a way to simulate military packing, but the ammo within may never have seen a military specification, much less have been manufactured to conform to same.

Steel cases have been a common economy measure in widespread use since the start of WWII. Steel cases can be plated with a copper alloy, or coated with a resin or other polymer to facilitate their extraction, since steel does not "relax" in the chamber after firing to the extent that brass will Steel cases can be Berdan or Boxer-primed. I have WWII .45 ACP USGI cartridges with steel cases, for example, which are Boxer-primed to the US standard.

Thus, you must look at each individual element of the cartridge. You cannot assume that because a case is steel, it is Berdan primed. Since steel is a favorite material of the old Warsaw Pact nations, and the European practice is to use the Berdan system, indeed most modern steel ammo is more likely Berdan than Boxer. But, there's no rule that says steel has to be Berdan, any more than brass has to be Boxer (I have several cases of European NATO 7.62 with brass cases and Berdan primers).

Incidentally, Berdan was an American, and Boxer was a Brit. It's a bit of historical irony that the American system is the European standard, and vice versa.

Does this help?

Regards,

Walt

[Randy 1911]

And to make things more complicated, the Berdan primer was designed by an American and the Boxer primer was designed by a European. Go figure.

[chadflys]

Yes, all that helps. That answered my biggest question that was Yes I will be able to reload the last thousand rounds I bought. Thanks

Chad