Gunsmith courses

[gregnsara]

I have a 15 year old who is interested in gunsmithing. Just wondering if anyone here has taken any of the online gunsmithing courses, and if so, what your opinions are about some of the best and most economical courses available? I know the American Gunsmithing Institute is probably the most well-known, but the cost of tuition on that one is out of my price range. There are several others that are more within our means, but just wanted to know what others' opinions are on what might be good. Doesn't need to be an all-inclusive course, but enough training to have a good grasp on gunsmithing basics and practices.

[T. O'Heir]

You really cannot learn anything with either correspondence or on-line courses. You need an example of the firearm the lesson is about. It's very difficult to learn how to do a trigger job on say a Smith revolver if you don't have one.
The only course that are worse are the video based courses. Those companies are mostly in the video sales business.
For a 15 year old(assuming his high school offers 'em) tell him to take machine shop. Keeping in mind that all gunsmiths are machinists, but not all machinists are gunsmiths. Then look into The Colorado School of Trades(2 year Community College course, but recognized by everybody. Correspondence or on-line courses are not) or your local Community College.
https://schooloftrades.edu/
Read post #5 here too. dfariswheel is everywhere.
https://gunhub.com/m1-carbine/41065-...institute.html
Probably best to tell him there are virtually no entry level jobs anywhere. And opening your own shop requires small business training. It also requires a big pile of cash as nobody will extend a new business any credit. That means everything he wants to sell will be on COD basis.

[SIGSHR]

As an old soldier and a gun enthusiast I firmly believe the more you read before you tackle a gun project the better off you are. Books, manuals, gun magazine articles- videos. You will what tools and materials you will need and you will find that what is seen as the most direct approach is often not the best one. I recall J. B. Wood writing that many of his columns were not a "How to do it" but rather "How the gunsmith does it", he cited how amateurs-i.e. most of us-think lightening and smoothing a trigger pull on a revolver means working on the sear and the mainspring, in one article he mentioned that gentle polishing of the sides of the hammer where it contacts the frame and the sideplate-and gentle polishing of those parts-often do more to smooth a trigger pull-a "systems approach" as the might say in NASA.
Videos ? I have watched few of the gun ones, I am a fan of the traditional English 3-speed bicycle. I found a video by a Brit on the disassembly/reassembly of the Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub, I watched it until not only had I memorized the dialogue I could imitate his accent. That, combined with my copy of Sutherland's Handbook for bicycle mechanics, made the job very easy. Just my $0.02.

[gregnsara]

SIGSHR, thank you for posting a helpful and positive response. I, too, have learned a tremendous amount from videos and reading. As I stated earlier, my expectation isn't to turn my boy into a full-blown professional gunsmith overnight. Just to get a basic understanding of how gunsmithing works. My kids are homeschooled, so the course would be part of his curriculum. I actually have a gunsmith friend that work at a local gun shop who got their accreditation online. He used AGI though, and they're out of my price range. That's why I was looking for another option. My boy is pretty smart and is very capable of learning from reading and videos, so that's not even a concern for him. I guess some people aren't capable of learning things without having their hand held. Thanks again!

[4V50 Gary]

I don't think any college trade school will accept him at his age. It's a matter of a minor possessing a firearm and I doubt if the (adult) instructor will accept responsibility for that. I can't speak for the AGI videos (we had them at TSJC, but they were stolen) but I know Bob Dunlap when he taught at Lassen College. You can learn so much from a video, but sometimes you need to consult with a person.

So for now, he should read. Walter Howe's Professional Gunsmithing is one of my favorites. Besides reading, he could learn some very important skills that are very relevant to firearms. This would include:

Machine operations (lathe, milling machine)
soldering
Welding (especially TIG welding)
brazing
Tool sharpening (chisels, gouges, drill bits, machine bits). Besides stones, he should have an introduction to grinders and especially grinder wheels (wear a mask and goggles).
Hand tools.
This may sound boring, but filing is an important skill too. Long forward stroke, lift up, pull back (but not on the workpiece). Holding the file right keeps you level too (you can have the thumb down on the file and not file handle).

All those skills were taught to us at TSJC gunsmithing. When he's 18, send him either to a school like TSJC or to its NRA summer school. That way he can figure out if he really is interested instead of going hog wild and spending a ton on tools and tuition only for him to wish he were a photographer or sports announcer.

Now, there are some good videos out there, and there is some trash. Here's an excellent monkey-see, monkey do video on the Beretta 92.

https://youtu.be/heKAnIMSwy4

Guns are held together by:

Pins
Screws
spring or mechanical tension (this includes solder/welding)
interlocking parts

He should also learn the basic principles of how a gun works. You need this to diagnose malfunctions.

BTW, I hate those Gun Digest books on assembly & disassembly. Their photos never show the critical (difficult) part and you have to figure it out on your own. Save your money.

[Aguila Blanca]

gregnsara --

I'm reading between the lines here so, if I'm off the mark, feel free to correct me. I'm guessing that, at age 15, the goal here is not to turn your son into a master gunsmith so much as to expose him to what gunsmithing involves in order to help guide him in his future career choice. With that in mind, I'm going to suggest that going to the Brownells' web site and ordering a few of Jerry Kuhnhausen's books would be a good start. Then there is a book (the exact title and publisher of which escapes me at the moment) that details how to disassemble and reassemble most of the better known (and many not so well-known) firearms.

Then scour tag sales, estate sales, and pawn shops for cheap, old, broken guns and let your son have at it. I once picked up a broken revolver (Detective Special clone) for $50 that I was able to repair for the cost of a couple of hours at the work bench. I picked up an old .32 top-break revolver for $25. It's supposed to be DA/SA but this one was cheap because DA doesn't work. I don't care, because I bought it solely to have a top break to show students in my NRA Basic Pistol classes. But, for someone learning the ropes, something like that would be a great intro to diagnosing problems.

But -- if the cost of video courses is out of your price range, keep in mind that (as has been mentioned) "all gunsmiths are machinists." That means if he's going to be a gunsmith, he will need a lathe and a milling machine, and good ones aren't cheap. One of the $500 to $700 Harbor Freight hobby lathes won't be good enough for a real gunsmith. (I have one, so don't bother to ask me how I know.) If he won't be able to afford the proper tools and equipment, there's not much point in pursuing a career as a gunsmith.

I recently took the 1911 Armorers course at Sig Sauer Academy. I am now a Sig-certified 1911 armorer. The problem is that ALL I got out of the class was a certificate suitable for framing. I'm only a 1911 hobbyist, but I already knew everything that was taught. I had hoped to learn more about diagnosing stubborn problems, but what I wasn't fully cognizant of is that an "armorer" is ONLY a parts changer. All the armorer is supposed to do is replace an old part with a new, factory part. Full stop. Anything beyond that is "gunsmithing." There weren't even needle files in the classroom -- armorers don't file or fit parts, they replace parts.

So gunsmithing means being prepared to modify parts, or even make new parts from scratch. That requires knowledge of machining, heat treating, tempering, etc. on top of knowing how guns work. Again, it comes down to equipment. If you don't have the equipment, you probably shouldn't call yourself a gunsmith.

[4V50 Gary]

He can also hang around a gunsmith and help clean and reassemble guns.

He'd better know to use the right screwdriver lest he bugger up the screw heads.

He could do clean and lube jobs for the smith. Smith can get $50-75 and send the kid packing with $15 a gun. I shudder about employee paperwork, workers' comp and I wouldn't want a kid to help b/c of it.

[URIT]

There is a good 4 part YouTube video series by Blubelly2 titled, Gunsmithing the S&W 3rd Generation Pistols which can give him a starting point that could generate some cash flow.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by URIT

There is a good 4 part YouTube video series by Blubelly2 titled, Gunsmithing the S&W 3rd Generation Pistols which can give him a starting point that could generate some cash flow.

How is watching a Youtube video going to generate cash flow?

If you are suggesting that a 15-year-old can watch four Youtube videos and then start working on other people's guns for money, I'll chime in and suggest that in today's litigious society that would be A ... VERY ... BAD ... IDEA.

Professional gunsmiths carry professional liability insurance, which covers them if they do something that causes someone to be injured, as well as premises and operations insurance, which covers them against other types of damages that may result from something they did. Liability and P&O insurance don't come cheap, and a 15-year old can't make enough money tuning up the three S&W 3rd generation revolvers in his county to make even the down payment. And, frankly he would be crazy to touch a customer's gun without the insurance, and his parents would be crazy to allow him to do so without insurance because at 15 he's a minor ... which means the parents are financially responsible for the 15-year-old's actions.

[gregnsara]

Lol. The goal as of now IS NOT to be working on anyone's guns. I'm merely looking for a means for him to get his feet wet as far as an educated understanding of basic gunsmithing practices. No need at this point for machining or anything too serious. He IS only 15 after all...plenty of time to take it slow. Yes, we will probably utilize YouTube, but only as an instructional aide. My main aim was to start him out with something progressively structured to save all the hassle of trying to piece together a curriculum from many different sources, which in the end, may be a better approach than anything else. There is a college about an hour from us that actually teaches gunsmithing, but we will explore that option later on, IF and when he still has the desire to pursue the craft. I don't want to sink a ton of cash into a career path for a 15 year old that has a lot of time left to decide what he wants to do with his life lol. But he's really into guns, he and I have a father/son YouTube gun channel together which we enjoy very much, so as of now, I want to help him with this passion without breaking the bank. And thanks everyone for your input, I appreciate it.

[Aguila Blanca]

From time to time Sarco has offered inexpensive guns in non-working condition. These are real firearms that are broken. Since they have redesigned their web site I don't know where to look for them but you could give them a call and ask if they have anything.

My $25 top break was something I found on Gunbroker.

Look for things like this: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/858786375

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/858991107

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/858644714

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/858646413

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/855526710

[4V50 Gary]

Cheap guns are cheap for a reason. Classmates who work on them had a harder time getting them to work. They earned less points and got lower grades.

Cheap guns that are bought to be played with as projects are best disposed of in a gun buyback program. Don't spend ore than what the buyback brings. Think of it as a rental unit. Rent it, wreck it/fix it, return it for cash.

[SIGSHR]

Again, I advocate reading as much as possible. I read the various reloading manuals and reloading article in the gun magazines for THREE years before I loaded my first round. Older guns often require older references, some of which are out of print but are worth obtaining. The Sutherland's handbook I mentioned is out of print but is sought after. I also believe in starting small and simple, a thorough knowledge of disassembly and reassembly-knowing the importance of correct fitting screwdrivers, e.g. Understanding how gun mechanisms work. Our resident Colt expert Dfariswheel would point out that in the older Colts one part often filled two or three functions, understanding that will make disassembly, reassembly-and diagnosis much easier. Understanding that filing must be done VERY gently, it's easy to remove small amounts of metal-and very hard to put it back.

[Scorch]

This question comes up at least once or twice a year. As a gunsmith, I can tell you that people will learn very little of any practical value from watching videos and reading books unless they already have a basic hands-on knowledge of tool use and mechanical repair. This type of "learning" only adds to the number of unsafe and poorly done repairs on firearms in circulation.

As far as becoming a gunsmith, there are several companies that make a practice of selling instructional material and then sending a "Master Gunsmith Certificate" when all the assignments have been completed. I have two such "Master Gunsmiths" in my area, and I routinely fix work that they have done. This does service to neither the student nor his prospective clients (victims?), as they tell the student he is well trained and ready to go forth and do battle and he goes out and mangles firearms (sometimes beyond saving).

I know this is not what you want to hear, but if your son wants to learn to work on firearms, enroll him at a trade school that teaches gunsmithing. There are summer classes as well as regular year-round classes. He will receive a hands-on mentored education in the BASICS of gunsmithing. I worked with several excellent gunsmiths as an apprentice before finally taking on a shop of my own, and I have trained two apprentices who graduated from trade schools. As a newly graduated gunsmith, you know a bit about the most common firearms you will encouonter but nothing about how to make money at the trade.

[4V50 Gary]

Don't overlook the NMLRA and its summer gunbuilding workshops. He can learn a lot of other skills like engraving, inlay, relief carving from their top notch instructors. I also took some gunbuilding (long rifles) classes from them and learned forging and casting. No need to be 18.

The Assembling a James Kibbler class will teach him something about wood to metal fit and give him experience with hand tools. Here's one trouble: kit will run you about $800 min.

Those artistic skills may be used to convert a $500 rifle to a $5k rifle.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

He'd better know to use the right screwdriver lest he bugger up the screw heads.

So true.

I was very disappointed a few years ago when I bought a set of supposedly professional-grade "gunsmithing" screwdrivers from Brownells and, when they arrived, I discovered that the tips aren't hollow ground. I should have sent them back, but I didn't. They hang on a pegboard and have never been used on a firearm (or anything else). For years, 90% of my gunsmithing screwdriver needs were answered by one of those reversable, multi-bit combo thingies:



Two sizes of straight blade, both hollow ground.

Last year I picked up a pair of multi-bit tools from Remington in their end-of-year sale. Same idea -- all the straight screwdrivers have hollow-ground tips.

[SIGSHR]

Perhaps we should distinguish between gunsmithing-things that require a proper professional setup, milling, drilling, bluing, etc. as opposed to johnsmithng-disassembly, reassembly, etc.

[4V50 Gary]

He's got to start somewhere.

I think shop classes (milling machine, lathe and use of handtools will serve him well for now). He's only 15. He should be learning how to sharpen chisels and gouges like any old world apprentice would be doing.

Actually he'd be sweeping the floors, hauling in firewood/coal and water, pumping the bellows and relieving the master of any menial chores.

Homework assignment #1. Learn about the heritage with this video, The Gunsmith of Colonial Williamsburg.

https://youtu.be/qTy3uQFsirk

[jag2]

Any one mention the military? I would say all the shop courses available and maybe a year at a community college that has shop type courses then start talking to recruiters. The more you have to offer them the better chance of getting the assignment you want. Plus, it’s just good for a young man.

[4V50 Gary]

Classmate went to the military. He's a AMU right now. They lied and he was told he was going to work on rifles. Instead they having him working on pistols. He's happy doing that.

Better to go to school and into the AMU which recruits from TSJC and Colorado School of Trades. If he goes straight into the army he may never get to AMU and will only be a parts swapper (armorer). My classmates AIT was machining and welding (Unlike USMC, the Army doesn't have armorer classification so he's rated as some sort of welder/machinist). Since there was nothing they could teach him (he learned it at TSJC and they knew it), he was tramming the milling machines and ensuring the lathes were center between heads (test bar and dial indicator) for the rest of the class.

[SIGSHR]

I wouldn't belittle an armorer as a mere parts changer-"Interchangeable parts-won't."

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by SIGSHR

I wouldn't belittle an armorer as a mere parts changer-"Interchangeable parts-won't."

I'm not sure what the "SIG" part of your screen name signifies, but if it's Sig Sauer ...

I just took the Sig Sauer Academy 1911 Armorer's course. It was made VERY clear to us in the class that armorers only replace worn parts with new, factory parts. Armorers do NOT fit parts, file parts, modify parts, or alter parts. They replace parts. This has nothing to do with "belittling" armorers. This is what the course teaches: armorers are parts changers.

Per the Sig Sauer Academy, if "Interchangeable parts-won't," the armorer is done and the gun is sent back to the factory. Period. Full stop.

[4V50 Gary]

I wouldn't belittle an armorer as a mere parts changer-"Interchangeable parts-won't."

It all depends on the level that the armourer is at. If he belongs to the REME (UK), he can do everything a school trained gunsmith can do. Ditto with the guys in the AMU like my buddy or the USMC Armourer level. Now, lower echelon guys are parts swappers and the higher they go, the more skilled they are and the more difficult the tasks they are allowed to perform. I just found out that the WW II German regimental armorer had a truck which housed an entire machine shop (mill/lathe/grinders) on it. What a prize of war one of those would have been.

Most law enforcement armorers are just parts swappers, like the lower echelon military guys. Get it to work reliably and back in the hands of the user.

Since Sig was mentioned, I was also trained by Sig. When the extractor on my P220 broke (older West German, circa 1987 so the part had over three decades of service) I tried to order the part. No go. Wouldn't sell me one. I explained I was trained by Sig to replace them. Still no go. I explained I was a TSJC trained gunsmith. No go. Had to go to their custom gunshop for their man to fix. Finally found the part elsewhere and installed it myself.

[SGW Gunsmith]

I was fortunate enough to serve an apprenticeship shortly after high school in a local manufacturing facility. School during the day, tool room work and learning on the second shift. My instructors were all journeyman tool makers who fled Czechoslovakia, Poland, Yugoslavia, and Germany when it got too hot in the kitchen over in Europe. Not very patient with too much chatter and wanted more listening and watching more than anything else.
Seems that trade may be coming back into play with the present administration, and that's where I'd steer a young fella as soon as he finishes up his enlistment for high school. Try to get into a manufacturing firm that will teach and train them on machining equipment, both manual and CNC.
If you can learn to make a part from scratch, do some welding, heat-treat, lathe turning along with milling, or surface grinding, that would be good but if you only do disassembly/reassembly, then you are an armorer, not a true 'smith.

Parker O Ackley wrote in one of his gunsmithing tomes that it would be difficult and not practical to make a firing pin for the early Remington Model 12 .22 pump guns. I had to try that challenge, and it's the top firing pin on the right. Was it practical? Nope! Hourly rate would probably put the cost over $500.00, but I did do it :



Also made an obsolete tap and heat-treated it to make several parts where the tap was unavailable.

[4V50 Gary]

SGW Gunsmith - you're a lucky dude to have apprenticed under old world tradesmen. A couple of my classmates had to make firing pins as part of their exit exam. Most laborious part I had to make was a aluminium loading gate for a SAA revolver. A little bit of mill work and then a lot of time with a file. The original part was plastic and it had snapped and couldn't be glued. Was it worth the time? Heck no. Like for you though, it was worth the experience. My instructor who taught us how to do it is now the Dean of Instruction and I don't know if the instructor who replaced him does that.

Agree 100% that we have to get back into the trades and restore the trade schools to prepare the kids for factory work. If we want to grow our economy, we need to produce for export. We need to bring trades back in the schools too. I was too stupid and should have attended trade school when I was in high school. At least I could have learned cabinet making like my brother. Now I have to learn from books.

I get the old world training whenever I attend the NMLRA classes at Bowling Green. I've been lucky to have had classes under the first three master gunsmiths of Colonial Williamsburg (Wallace Gusler, Gary Brumfield (dec.) and George Suiter). Suiter is retired and attended TSJC and told me some stories about the place in the old days (like a stupid barfight a classmate provoked. George crawled out rather than get involved).