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View Poll Results: Do you legally carry at work even if it's against company policy? | |||
I have a gun on me whenever it's legal for me to do so... | 91 | 70.54% | |
I need the pay-check to badly to risk getting caught... | 38 | 29.46% | |
Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll |
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October 6, 2008, 02:29 PM | #76 | ||
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October 6, 2008, 03:54 PM | #77 |
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Let me sum up the view most employers take with reguard to employee safety.
1)You work to make me money, your safety does not matter unless one of the following applies. a) a government agency with the power to acess fines makes me take steps to provide for your safety. b) working conditions are so obviously hazardous I can't find anyone to work. c) you have a union which forces me to take action to provide for your safety d) I keep getting sued which costs me money. e) it costs me too much money to replace you 2)If you die by third party action I dont care, if you die, I am only out the cost it took to train you. If you defend yourself, I could be sued which will cost me many times the money I have invested in you. Employer-Employee relationships are all about money very little honor or moral fiber involved IMHO |
October 6, 2008, 04:13 PM | #78 |
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Exactly, the point about the Constitution is not understood by some in this debate. That's why specific legislation is needed to control conditions on the workplace scene.
I support such legislation for the workplace and for businesses open to the public except for demonstrated technical risks. Now, folks will argue that it is their private property but if you hire others and do business with the public, that doesn't fly for me.
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October 6, 2008, 04:42 PM | #79 | |
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Well Glenn, I applaud your understanding the COTUS. I wish more did. The idea though that the gov't should pass more laws controlling what I allow in my property is abhorrent though. Mind you that I think that laws banning racial, sexual and religious discrimination in the private workplace are also wrong. By no means do I support such practices, I just do not think the Gov't has any business tell a private citizen who they can or have to engage in a private contract with. Once that starts the line begins to form over who gets the special treatment. Blacks, fine. Jews, alright. Gays, we'll go for this one. Satanists, huh? Transgender individuals demanding their own bathrooms at work, your kidding? Balding pot bellied men looking to be Hooters "girls", see the problem? The only way NOT to slide to the bottom of that slippery slope is to realize gov't shouldn't be standing on it to begin with. Like I said, I respect your understanding of the COTUS, and I even see the very real reasons you feel gov't involvement in private matters might be justified. I just cannot accept the cost of letting "Dracula into your house" that happens when you start letting the gov't regulate who you can do business with.
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October 6, 2008, 04:44 PM | #80 | |
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If you want to tie this to the expenditure of gov't funds you can, but when everything is private the gov't should be OUT.
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October 6, 2008, 09:51 PM | #81 | |
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Tying this argument to honor or honesty is disingenious at best, dumb at worst.
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October 6, 2008, 10:51 PM | #82 | |
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When an employee shows up covertly armed, what is he seeking to take? Nothing. If he can keep that pistol hidden lke a good pocketwatch or his wallet, and still perform his job and deliver productivity to the employer, then the employer has lost nothing. If an employer cuts down your pay without your knowledge, that is clearly dishonest and it takes from the employee. This is clearly a situational ethics question and there isn't a free lunch. If the employer seeks to make policy (aside from work & productivity) which would / could affect the employees personal life, then it's a bargain of sorts. "Will you not bring your gun to work?" "What benefit do I receive in exchange for this behavior?" !! Well it's either we will protect you, or, nothing. If there's no value in the bargain and maybe a real danger also...People will vote their conscience for a perceived greater value of personal safety. If you think this is a rationalization to be able to break the rules.....then you are on the other side of the spectrum obsessing over the letter of the rules, as if the only thing that matters is the letter of the contract. Kinda how most cops obsess over the letter of the law. There's law, and there's life. Simple sit ethic question. If he wont provide protection then do I still carry? He has his reasons, good ones. I have my reasons, also good ones. Yes I will and accept the consequences. That is not dishonest, I will still be productive and work so deserve full value for my work. I love being self employed. |
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October 7, 2008, 12:15 AM | #83 |
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dilemma
I worked at a company that as a matter of policy forbade all weapons<including nonlethal ones>...
Not necessarily a bad policy - BUT when leaving work at 2am after counting out a few $1000 dollars...and walking across the dark wide open parking lot where there has been a shooting and carjacking...well, one realizes the company would rather send flowers to my funeral and help with my eulogy than insure my safety. Most workers in America hang up their constitutional rights on the wall when they enter their employer's domain. Real free speech and real freedom of expression, fly out the window. The 2nd Amend. flies out the window too. We take our own chances. We pay our own dues. Life can be unfair. My former employer also had the 'policy' of being able to search an employee's locker at anytime for any reason. Yeah it's unconstitutional, but arguing the constitution is also grounds for dismissal. I carried anyway and my former employer never knew it...but I certainly don't recommend such dastardly violations of company policies. I do, however, understand and appreciate such dastardly violations of company policies. As far as laws and the idea of higher laws...are concerned, I do not usually like lawyers and the bureaucracy of the courts. I tend to view the Justice System as a kind of hallowed snake den of corruption and bad faith politics. If a madman with a knife runs up to me and asks me where he can find someone to stab - I feel perfectly justified and honest when I tell him a bold faced lie. Yes, boss I will walk unarmed across that dark parking lot every night at 2am. and always not carry anything to protect myself. Yes, boss, I will die for $8 per hr. Yes, boss you are always right. |
October 7, 2008, 12:25 AM | #84 |
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Good points Edward and .300,
You know the guy I feel for is Joe Citizen who HAS to work an extra job to feed his family. I know a lot of people like that. He can't "just quit" and go somewhere else because there is no where else to go. So, he delivers pizzas and his "caring" company demands that he deliver in bad parts of town. Of course they also demand he not arm himself as the risk to THEIR insurance is too great and it might hurt their profit. Everyone knows that frequently thugs call in pizza orders in order to rob the delivery man and sometimes they just shoot the guy because they don't want witnesses. The company doesn't care and demands that all called in orders be filled. So, according to some, in order for the man to maintain his "honesty" and "honor" he must not carry a firearm at work into the bad parts of town and so he ends up dead in a robbery. His family gets nothing, nothing happens to the pizza company, they just keep delivering pizzas. But at least Joe Citizen, rather than not feed his family and quit, gets killed but keeps his honor! Absolutely disgusting. That's not honor that's stupidity.
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October 7, 2008, 05:55 AM | #85 | ||
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On a side note. An employer cannot tell me what to do on my off time. From the time I leave the job until I reach my vehicle the employers rule (that I not carry) prevents me from exercising my right for that time while I am no longer on the clock or premises. |
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October 7, 2008, 06:24 AM | #86 |
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I'd bet that those who are calling folks dishonest are hypocrites. Everybody has their thing. Electing to break a bad rule to protect yourself is hardly going to keep you from walking through the pearly gates. Following the rule might send you there faster however.
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October 7, 2008, 07:22 AM | #87 |
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I would happily support a constitutional amendment that stated something like - the carry of concealed weapons shall not be banned by any governmental agency or private party business or institution unless an immediate and technical physical risk of some external process can be demonstrated.
By the latter - I mean things like a gun by the MRI. Not your opinion of guns. Don't want to thread hijack by talking about civil rights. Off to a discussion of anthropology and war fighting. And we get free tacos!!
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October 7, 2008, 09:14 AM | #88 | ||
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October 7, 2008, 09:50 AM | #89 |
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On a side note....
I went into a gun store to buy ammo and I got really scared... ALL THE EMPLOYEES WERE ARMED pistols on the outside of their clothes! I was all a titter and shaking in my hunting boots Brent |
October 7, 2008, 10:57 AM | #90 | ||
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October 7, 2008, 11:04 AM | #91 | ||
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October 7, 2008, 11:20 AM | #92 | ||
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October 7, 2008, 11:58 AM | #93 | ||
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October 7, 2008, 12:02 PM | #94 | |||||
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Isn't it nice to be able to do what most others can't and then tell them they are dishonest for doing what you have the privilege to do! And where is this you work where you can't carry? Some place where there is security like maybe campus police? I bet it's not in a liquor store in New Orleans or delivering pizza in Detroit. Of course you wouldn't work there because you are a white collar type I suspect. And I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if you really ever felt threatened you would carry and then say it was OK because you are a former LEO. Might want to climb out of that Ivory Tower and walk a few miles in the moccasins of the regular guy.
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October 7, 2008, 12:44 PM | #95 | ||
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Last edited by David Armstrong; October 7, 2008 at 03:01 PM. |
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October 7, 2008, 01:16 PM | #96 | ||||||||||
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October 7, 2008, 03:53 PM | #97 | ||||||||||
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Anyway, even if you did that was your choice, I chose to spend a lot of time in the military in dangerous places but I CHOSE that. Joe Citizen doesn't always have a choice and that is where your position is so horribly wrong because you can't see that. Quote:
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October 7, 2008, 05:20 PM | #98 | |||||||||||||||
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October 7, 2008, 05:39 PM | #99 | |
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As you can see David is very technical and to the letter. He is correct in what he has stated. By accepting employment we agree to abide by the rules. My trump card is my right to self defense. IMO it removes the dishonesty charge because the rule in question is a violation of my right to self preservation. That trumps everything else for me.
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I still maintain that everyone has broken a rule at work. Still some find it necessary to call others dishonest when they themselves have broken rules. Makes them feel better I guess. |
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October 7, 2008, 06:45 PM | #100 | |||
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