.357 question

Tony Z · December 7, 2015, 05:37 AM

I'm having a bit of trouble cycling .38 Special light loads through my Henry Big Boy steel carbine. The load is a 125 grain JHP over 4.6 grains of Unique. Shoots well, but about 2 out 5 hang up and I'm thinking the length may be a bit short.

Using the same mixture in a .357 case instead of a .38 Special length case, does anyone foresee any problems?

Jim243 · December 7, 2015, 07:10 AM

Quote:

does anyone foresee any problems?

Yes, you are dropping the pressure even more because of the extra length of the 357 case. Since the bullet is the correct caliber, I would just use a 357 Mag load in the 357 cases.

I do not use Unique powder, so I can not help you there.

Stay safe.
Jim

TimSr · December 7, 2015, 08:35 AM

You really shouldn't be shooting 125gr jacketed bullets as light as you already are. Going to a larger case could be the tipping point. You should be loading about 5.6 or so in a 38 case for a standard (non+P)38 spl load. If you are going to use a 357 case, I'd bump it up to 6.0gr Unique, and you'll still be sub 38 +P. If you are going to load ultra lights, you need to go to a cast bullet and still watch minimums.

sawdustdad · December 7, 2015, 08:50 AM

Many of the lever actions are cartridge length sensitive. I know my Rossi 1892 likes .357 cartridges better than .38spl.

You might be able to load your current load in the .357 case. With a larger case volume, you might experience somewhat lower velocities, and, with Unique, perhaps less complete combustion. You could switch to a slightly faster powder if Unique turns out to be too slow for that load in the .357 case. Or increase the charge amount slightly. (as has been suggested already).

I shoot ALOT of .38spl in a Uberti 1873 clone and it works fine with a COL of about 1.5 inches. But my Rossi, when run fast, (think CAS) like the longer .357 cartridges.

Another option is to seat your bullet further out in the .38spl case. I crimp 125g bullets between the crimp groove and the lube groove, giving a longer COL than normal with the .38spl case. Oh, I see you are shooting JHPs. That may not work then. I'm shooting lead/coated bullets.

If you are just plinking (inferred from your reference to "light loads") then you should consider switching to a faster powder (bullseye, 700x, clays, clay dot, etc) and cheaper lead bullets. Faster powders will burn cleaner in both .38 and .357 cases at light loads.

A lot of the Cowboy Action shooters (CAS) have done work on their lever actions to manage the cartridge length issue. There is a great explanation here.
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/togglelink.pdf

and lots of discussion of the issue on the SASS forum: (one of many threads)

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?...h#entry2955828

Hope that helps.

Ole Joe Clark · December 7, 2015, 09:05 AM

I don't know if your rifle is a lever, semi auto etc.

If it is a semi auto, you probably are going to have to use a slower burning powder. On a Ruger .44 mag, semi auto I had to slow down from Unique. I think I went to 2400 or Blue Dot.

Tony Z · December 7, 2015, 01:42 PM

Rifle is a Henry and the load is for indoor plinking.

Ideas for a subsonic, low pressure load?

buck460XVR · December 7, 2015, 02:08 PM

I always try and stick with a published load that will produce a minimum 800-850 fps in a revolver to avoid a stuck bullet in my handgun caliber carbines. Especially when using the faster burning powders like Bullseye, W231 and Unique. I agree with TimSr, you are inviting a squib/stuck bullet with your 4.6 load in .357 cases(probably in .38 cases also).

sawdustdad · December 7, 2015, 02:12 PM

I load 2.8g 700x under a 125g coated soft lead FPTC (brinel 12) bullet. 600fps from a 5.5inch revolver and about 800fps from my Uberti 1873 clone rifle. .38 spl case, CCI or Winchester small pistol primer, crimped solidly with a COL of 1.45 to 1.5. You can go down to 2.6g or 2.7g but my powder measure starts to get flaky and risks dropping a 2.4 or 2.5g charge. May not be a factor for you, but it's below the power factor for my purposes (CAS). Other fast powders can give similar results, Clays is another powder that loads nearly identically (i.e., same charge weights).

I load the exact same charge in .357 cases (same bullet and primer) as well with similar ballistics.

If you are really looking for a subsonic round out of a rifle, you can start with 2.6g or 2.7g and work down.

this talk of squibs is not an issue with a coated or lubed lead bullet unless you totally forget the powder. Plated or jacketed, they do have a point.

T. O'Heir · December 7, 2015, 02:17 PM

4.6 grains of Unique is already below minimum(5.1) for a jacketed 125 out of .38 Special.
Like sawdustdad says, most lever action .357's just don't like .38 Special cases.
If you use correct .38 Special data in a .357 case you should be fine though. However, if you want a light target load it won't be with a jacketed bullet.
I'd use a cast RN in a .357 case with .38 data. But not a 125.

Hammerhead · December 7, 2015, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Ideas for a subsonic, low pressure load?

I use poly coated cast lead for my light 357 loads in my carbine. Right now my load is a Blue Bullets coated .358" 125 RN over 4.2 grains of Bullseye, subsonic in my 22" Handi rifle. You might look for a flat point with a crimp groove for your lever gun, but the coated bullets are great for plinkers in a 357 carbine. Use lead data and magnum brass.

Tony Z · December 7, 2015, 06:03 PM

First (answered some earlier posts), Lyman 47th Edition shows a Hornady 125 grain JHP load, starting at 4.0 grains of Unique.

Second, Hammerhead: what is the brand name for your poly-coated bullets (Blue?)? Your suggestions are what I was looking for! Thanks!

BigJimP · December 7, 2015, 07:22 PM

Stick with published loads....and make sure your bullets have a cannelure on them ...(most plated bullets do not have it ).

I load the same 158gr FMJ Montana Gold bullet...in all of my handguns for .357 mag ...and in my Henry lever action.../ but without the cannelure on the bullet, you risk serious bullet setback - like you get from a kinetic bullet puller.

Don't go below ...or above published loads.

**Unclenick** · December 7, 2015, 08:03 PM

It seems a number of responses had which case worked and which didn't reversed. I assume by hang-up you are referring to feeding from the lever gun and not to bullets stuck in the bore. The .38 Special case is 0.135" shorter than the .357 Magnum case, but the maximum COL is only 0.040 different. Bullets made for use in both cartridges therefore have two crimp cannelures 0.095" apart. Bullets made only for .357 have a crimp cannelure that will take you that same 0.095" below .38 Special maximum COL if you use it, as well as raising pressure for an identical charge (though not by too much with your mild load). That shortness can allow the rim of the next round to enter the carrier over the nose of the round that"s supposed to be there and interfere with feeding, if that's what you have going on. The solution is a bullet with a crimp cannelure in the right place for .38 Special cartridges.

Average Joe · December 7, 2015, 08:26 PM

When I used Unique in my lever gun, I used 6.0 grains in a .357 case. Not a barn burner, just a mid range load. Worked quite well.

Tony Z · December 7, 2015, 08:31 PM

That's correct: cartridge not loading. I had no issue with loads not firing.

As far as following published loads, I've been reloading for roughly 40 years now, and don't know of any load I've tried that was not in a load book by Lyman or similar. Even when perusing loads, such as those published by Ken Waters in "Pet Loads", I still referred back to manuals.

My original question was one I have not seen any guidance for: can the same recipe be used in a .357 case, that is used in the shorter .38 Special case? I did note higher charges of Unique for the .357 case as opposed to the .38 case.

Thanks for answers given and for any additional, now that I've explained myself a bit better!

sawdustdad · December 7, 2015, 08:43 PM

Quote:

My original question was one I have not seen any guidance for: can the same recipe be used in a .357 case, that is used in the shorter .38 Special case? I did note higher charges of Unique for the .357 case as opposed to the .38 case.

I do this all the time. Same charge in both .38spl and .357mag cases. These are low power, fast powder plinking loads with soft lead bullets.

45_auto · December 7, 2015, 08:54 PM

Same as sawdustdad here. I've got a variety of .357 Rossi and Marlin lever actions that prefer .357 length cartridges over the .38 Specials. I routinely use light .38 Special loads in .357 brass. I get the same velocities out of either cartridge case. The .10" case length difference doesn't make any measurable difference over my Chrony.

I typically use light Unique and 231 loads, been awhile since I've loaded any, don't remember them offhand. I'll try to remember to look at them tomorrow.

Tony Z · December 8, 2015, 05:04 AM

Thanks for the last two replies!

T.

m&p45acp10+1 · December 8, 2015, 11:50 AM

Use magnum cases. For a good light load, that is also known to be the most clean shooting load you can get. Use Trail Boss. You can even make a good dipper using a cut down .38 Spcl. case. It also meters very well in a volumetric powder measure.

buck460XVR · December 8, 2015, 11:59 AM

Quote:

First (answered some earlier posts), Lyman 47th Edition shows a Hornady 125 grain JHP load, starting at 4.0 grains of Unique.

...and that is shown to produce a velocity of 498 FPS from a 4'' universal receiver, when ued in a .38 special case. While that is enough speed to get the bullet safely out of a 4'' barrel, it may not be in a 20'' carbine. While longer barrels produce more velocity, they also produce more friction on the bullet, especially a jacketed bullet. Fast powders have a short pressure curve which does not always produce the best velocities in longer barrels. This is why, I suggest 800 FPS as a minimum for jacketed bullets from a carbine to prevent a stuck bullet. This is something that was taught to me years ago by my reloading mentor. Lead is slipperier and more forgiving, thus less likely to stick in the barrel under light loads. I do what makes me comfortable when reloading for my guns, you should do the same.

Quote:

My original question was one I have not seen any guidance for: can the same recipe be used in a .357 case, that is used in the shorter .38 Special case? I did note higher charges of Unique for the .357 case as opposed to the .38 case.

The answer is yes you can, but the larger volume of the .357 case may cause less velocity. It always has for me. My Rossi carbine feeds 125 jacketed .38s just fine, but I still prefer to use .357 cases...probably just because I have more of 'em around.

**Unclenick** · December 8, 2015, 01:04 PM

Again, he's having no problems firing the loads. The problem is a mechanical problem with feeding from the magazine in his rifle.

Tony,

If you use a bullet designed to produce full cartridge overall length in the .357 Magnum case when its crimp cannelure is crimped into, it will be 0.135" shorter crimped to the same cannelure in the .38 Special case, and that may be enough shorter to cause a feed problem. Find a bullet with a separate .38 Special crimp groove located 0.095" further down, or find a similar style bullet, but designed for .38 Special instead of for .357 Magnum, and you will then have a cartridge only 0.040" shorter instead of 0.135" shorter than the .357 Mag.. That may be enough difference to end the feed problem.

buck460XVR · December 8, 2015, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Again, he's having no problems firing the loads. The problem is a mechanical problem with feeding from the magazine in his rifle.

I completely understand that, but having several handgun caliber carbines, and reloading for them, I have my concerns about a stuck bullet using powder puff loads designed for handguns in carbines.A very viable concern. As I said, those are my concerns for my guns, if the OP does not have those concerns and is confident with his loads, so be it.

The shorter .38 special cartridge is well known to cause problems in many lever guns....Kinda what gave the old Marlins in .357 such a poor reputation as "Jam-a-matics", thus the suggestion by many to stick with .357 brass. Seems the simple use of .357 brass would be easier and no more expensive or effort than finding a specific bullet that may or may not solve the feeding problem. The OPs original question was not about whether to use .357 brass or not, but whether the same load could be used in them as he used in his .38 special cases. Seems he has already found the solution to his feeding problems, now he is just trying to develop a safe load.

TimSr · December 9, 2015, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Again, he's having no problems firing the loads. The problem is a mechanical problem with feeding from the magazine in his rifle.

If he goes to a larger case, he will be CHANGING his load, and it may not continue to fire as it did before.

Tony Z · December 9, 2015, 09:29 AM

As with any handloads, I've been approaching this with caution. Being the loads are subsonic, and much quieter than a .22 LR, I've tested without hearing protection, locking for two sounds: first is the cartridge firing and the second is the round hitting the steel gong (50' away). Since my test lots are ten rounds at a time, if I do not hear either sound, I check to bore to determine if a round is stuck.

So-again, my issue is with shorter cartridges not reliably cycling through the rifle.

Jim Watson · December 9, 2015, 09:31 AM

I am sure Unclenick has seen a bullet with two cannelures or one placed to bring the OAL up to .38 Special maximum, but they are not common.
.357 brass would be the easy way out.

Either way, I would increase the powder charge by 10% to make up for the greater volume.

The only bullet I ever stuck in the barrel was with a 125 gr bullet with the same powder charge and OAL that I had been using for 158s. Just too far for the primer flash to reach the powder when coming up from a low ready position.

December 7, 2015, 05:37 AM	#1
Tony Z Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Location: North Central Pennsyltucky Posts: 749	.357 question I'm having a bit of trouble cycling .38 Special light loads through my Henry Big Boy steel carbine. The load is a 125 grain JHP over 4.6 grains of Unique. Shoots well, but about 2 out 5 hang up and I'm thinking the length may be a bit short. Using the same mixture in a .357 case instead of a .38 Special length case, does anyone foresee any problems?

December 7, 2015, 02:17 PM	#9
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	4.6 grains of Unique is already below minimum(5.1) for a jacketed 125 out of .38 Special. Like sawdustdad says, most lever action .357's just don't like .38 Special cases. If you use correct .38 Special data in a .357 case you should be fine though. However, if you want a light target load it won't be with a jacketed bullet. I'd use a cast RN in a .357 case with .38 data. But not a 125. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 7, 2015, 08:03 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It seems a number of responses had which case worked and which didn't reversed. I assume by hang-up you are referring to feeding from the lever gun and not to bullets stuck in the bore. The .38 Special case is 0.135" shorter than the .357 Magnum case, but the maximum COL is only 0.040 different. Bullets made for use in both cartridges therefore have two crimp cannelures 0.095" apart. Bullets made only for .357 have a crimp cannelure that will take you that same 0.095" below .38 Special maximum COL if you use it, as well as raising pressure for an identical charge (though not by too much with your mild load). That shortness can allow the rim of the next round to enter the carrier over the nose of the round that"s supposed to be there and interfere with feeding, if that's what you have going on. The solution is a bullet with a crimp cannelure in the right place for .38 Special cartridges. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 8, 2015, 11:50 AM	#19
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Use magnum cases. For a good light load, that is also known to be the most clean shooting load you can get. Use Trail Boss. You can even make a good dipper using a cut down .38 Spcl. case. It also meters very well in a volumetric powder measure. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

December 8, 2015, 01:04 PM	#21
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Again, he's having no problems firing the loads. The problem is a mechanical problem with feeding from the magazine in his rifle. Tony, If you use a bullet designed to produce full cartridge overall length in the .357 Magnum case when its crimp cannelure is crimped into, it will be 0.135" shorter crimped to the same cannelure in the .38 Special case, and that may be enough shorter to cause a feed problem. Find a bullet with a separate .38 Special crimp groove located 0.095" further down, or find a similar style bullet, but designed for .38 Special instead of for .357 Magnum, and you will then have a cartridge only 0.040" shorter instead of 0.135" shorter than the .357 Mag.. That may be enough difference to end the feed problem. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 7, 2015, 08:35 AM	#3
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	You really shouldn't be shooting 125gr jacketed bullets as light as you already are. Going to a larger case could be the tipping point. You should be loading about 5.6 or so in a 38 case for a standard (non+P)38 spl load. If you are going to use a 357 case, I'd bump it up to 6.0gr Unique, and you'll still be sub 38 +P. If you are going to load ultra lights, you need to go to a cast bullet and still watch minimums.

December 7, 2015, 08:50 AM	#4
sawdustdad Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2014 Location: Virginia Posts: 484	Many of the lever actions are cartridge length sensitive. I know my Rossi 1892 likes .357 cartridges better than .38spl. You might be able to load your current load in the .357 case. With a larger case volume, you might experience somewhat lower velocities, and, with Unique, perhaps less complete combustion. You could switch to a slightly faster powder if Unique turns out to be too slow for that load in the .357 case. Or increase the charge amount slightly. (as has been suggested already). I shoot ALOT of .38spl in a Uberti 1873 clone and it works fine with a COL of about 1.5 inches. But my Rossi, when run fast, (think CAS) like the longer .357 cartridges. Another option is to seat your bullet further out in the .38spl case. I crimp 125g bullets between the crimp groove and the lube groove, giving a longer COL than normal with the .38spl case. Oh, I see you are shooting JHPs. That may not work then. I'm shooting lead/coated bullets. If you are just plinking (inferred from your reference to "light loads") then you should consider switching to a faster powder (bullseye, 700x, clays, clay dot, etc) and cheaper lead bullets. Faster powders will burn cleaner in both .38 and .357 cases at light loads. A lot of the Cowboy Action shooters (CAS) have done work on their lever actions to manage the cartridge length issue. There is a great explanation here. http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/togglelink.pdf and lots of discussion of the issue on the SASS forum: (one of many threads) http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?...h#entry2955828 Hope that helps.

December 7, 2015, 09:05 AM	#5
Ole Joe Clark Member Join Date: March 14, 2015 Location: Heart of Dixie Posts: 52	I don't know if your rifle is a lever, semi auto etc. If it is a semi auto, you probably are going to have to use a slower burning powder. On a Ruger .44 mag, semi auto I had to slow down from Unique. I think I went to 2400 or Blue Dot.

December 7, 2015, 01:42 PM	#6
Tony Z Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Location: North Central Pennsyltucky Posts: 749	Rifle is a Henry and the load is for indoor plinking. Ideas for a subsonic, low pressure load?

December 7, 2015, 02:08 PM	#7
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	I always try and stick with a published load that will produce a minimum 800-850 fps in a revolver to avoid a stuck bullet in my handgun caliber carbines. Especially when using the faster burning powders like Bullseye, W231 and Unique. I agree with TimSr, you are inviting a squib/stuck bullet with your 4.6 load in .357 cases(probably in .38 cases also).

December 7, 2015, 02:12 PM	#8
sawdustdad Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2014 Location: Virginia Posts: 484	I load 2.8g 700x under a 125g coated soft lead FPTC (brinel 12) bullet. 600fps from a 5.5inch revolver and about 800fps from my Uberti 1873 clone rifle. .38 spl case, CCI or Winchester small pistol primer, crimped solidly with a COL of 1.45 to 1.5. You can go down to 2.6g or 2.7g but my powder measure starts to get flaky and risks dropping a 2.4 or 2.5g charge. May not be a factor for you, but it's below the power factor for my purposes (CAS). Other fast powders can give similar results, Clays is another powder that loads nearly identically (i.e., same charge weights). I load the exact same charge in .357 cases (same bullet and primer) as well with similar ballistics. If you are really looking for a subsonic round out of a rifle, you can start with 2.6g or 2.7g and work down. this talk of squibs is not an issue with a coated or lubed lead bullet unless you totally forget the powder. Plated or jacketed, they do have a point.

December 7, 2015, 06:03 PM	#11
Tony Z Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Location: North Central Pennsyltucky Posts: 749	First (answered some earlier posts), Lyman 47th Edition shows a Hornady 125 grain JHP load, starting at 4.0 grains of Unique. Second, Hammerhead: what is the brand name for your poly-coated bullets (Blue?)? Your suggestions are what I was looking for! Thanks!

December 7, 2015, 07:22 PM	#12
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Stick with published loads....and make sure your bullets have a cannelure on them ...(most plated bullets do not have it ). I load the same 158gr FMJ Montana Gold bullet...in all of my handguns for .357 mag ...and in my Henry lever action.../ but without the cannelure on the bullet, you risk serious bullet setback - like you get from a kinetic bullet puller. Don't go below ...or above published loads.

December 7, 2015, 08:26 PM	#14
Average Joe Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2005 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,325	When I used Unique in my lever gun, I used 6.0 grains in a .357 case. Not a barn burner, just a mid range load. Worked quite well.

December 7, 2015, 08:31 PM	#15
Tony Z Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Location: North Central Pennsyltucky Posts: 749	That's correct: cartridge not loading. I had no issue with loads not firing. As far as following published loads, I've been reloading for roughly 40 years now, and don't know of any load I've tried that was not in a load book by Lyman or similar. Even when perusing loads, such as those published by Ken Waters in "Pet Loads", I still referred back to manuals. My original question was one I have not seen any guidance for: can the same recipe be used in a .357 case, that is used in the shorter .38 Special case? I did note higher charges of Unique for the .357 case as opposed to the .38 case. Thanks for answers given and for any additional, now that I've explained myself a bit better!

December 7, 2015, 08:54 PM	#17
45_auto Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2011 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 1,399	Same as sawdustdad here. I've got a variety of .357 Rossi and Marlin lever actions that prefer .357 length cartridges over the .38 Specials. I routinely use light .38 Special loads in .357 brass. I get the same velocities out of either cartridge case. The .10" case length difference doesn't make any measurable difference over my Chrony. I typically use light Unique and 231 loads, been awhile since I've loaded any, don't remember them offhand. I'll try to remember to look at them tomorrow.

December 8, 2015, 05:04 AM	#18
Tony Z Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Location: North Central Pennsyltucky Posts: 749	Thanks for the last two replies! T.

December 9, 2015, 09:29 AM	#24
Tony Z Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Location: North Central Pennsyltucky Posts: 749	As with any handloads, I've been approaching this with caution. Being the loads are subsonic, and much quieter than a .22 LR, I've tested without hearing protection, locking for two sounds: first is the cartridge firing and the second is the round hitting the steel gong (50' away). Since my test lots are ten rounds at a time, if I do not hear either sound, I check to bore to determine if a round is stuck. So-again, my issue is with shorter cartridges not reliably cycling through the rifle.

December 9, 2015, 09:31 AM	#25
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I am sure Unclenick has seen a bullet with two cannelures or one placed to bring the OAL up to .38 Special maximum, but they are not common. .357 brass would be the easy way out. Either way, I would increase the powder charge by 10% to make up for the greater volume. The only bullet I ever stuck in the barrel was with a 125 gr bullet with the same powder charge and OAL that I had been using for 158s. Just too far for the primer flash to reach the powder when coming up from a low ready position.