Remington-Rand 1911

Mikef262 · December 29, 2019, 03:08 PM

Hey guys,

Decided to drop into a local gun show yesterday, in search of a USGI 1911. I remember there used to be plenty at this particular show a few years ago. Now, I only found 3 authentic ones. There was a Colt labeled as a "Colt WWII Repro". It lacked the United States Property marking, but was definitely interesting.

I wound up back at the first table I stopped at that had a Remington Rand 1911 listed at $1200. I wound up talking him into $1100. He insisted on telling me the "story behind it", which he was definitely using as a sale point. Almost offered him the full $1200 just to shut up haha.

So the finish is rough, grips are newer, and unbeknownst to me the barrel was shot smooth. Luckily, a few momths back I bought a mix master 1911 that had a remington rand slide, and a high standard barrel, so I just swapped barrels, and got that problem taken care of. Dating the serial number puts it at about

http://imgur.com/gallery/kJrc4XO

Hopefully the link works for pictures.

**Unclenick** · December 29, 2019, 04:37 PM

The barrel was smooth? You mean, no rifling? I've had a couple of guys tell me the rifling was shot out of their barrels, only for me to apply a carbon remover and have the rifling magically reappear. Mind you, you can shoot out a throat or funnel a muzzle, but I know of no way bullets can remove rifling. A defective barrel is a possibility, I suppose.

IIRC, the Remington Rand has a soft slide. So the magazine release can gradually peen its notch wider in the slot. Later Colts had that location flame-hardened, but I don't think that change made it in time for WWII. Anyway, keep an eye on it for burrs that may affect operation.

vkeith · December 30, 2019, 12:31 AM

Nice find!

I love my Remington Rand (1530XXX).

T. O'Heir · December 30, 2019, 02:25 PM

At $1200 it's not a real issue 1911A1. Those run around 2 grand and up depending on condition. The days of milsurp stuff being cheap are long gone.
"...unbeknownst to me..." Um, didn't you look at it?
"...lacked the United States Property marking..." That just means it wasn't a Lend/Lease piece. Had a real issue 191A1 years ago with no United States Property marking.

Mikef262 · December 30, 2019, 02:42 PM

T.O'Heir, two different guns I talked about. The one I purchased was the Remington Rand, and dated at 1943 based off the serial number. Please explain how it was never issued? Remington Rand made these 1911's for the military under contract. It is marked United States Property, so it was definitely owned by the military at some point. All stampings described in the original post also suggest it was inspected by military armorers.

Not trying to argue, just curious what makes you believe that? Simply the price paid?

Dufus · December 30, 2019, 03:19 PM

I inherited one from a cousin. It was a mix match from the arsenal. It had a Remington Rand slide and an Ithaca frame, determined by the numbers on each. High Standard made most of the barrels (somewhere around 1.3 million of them) for that era.

Bill DeShivs · December 30, 2019, 11:31 PM

Mr. O'Heir seems to post a lot of incorrect stuff, and then leaves the thread.

Mikef262 · December 30, 2019, 11:49 PM

Bill,

Looking at his comments on other threads, I see that to be true. I did not believe his comment to be accurate, but then again, I am young, and recently gotten a job that pays me well enough to afford the expensive guns I have always wanted. I am by no means an expert on these old guns, and had no clue what any of the markings were until I took it home and researched them. I knew of Remington rand prior to the purchase, but any other stampings such as the FJA or G and T marks were foreign to me.

highpower3006 · January 1, 2020, 04:16 AM

Quote:

At $1200 it's not a real issue 1911A1. Those run around 2 grand and up depending on condition. The days of milsurp stuff being cheap are long gone.
"...unbeknownst to me..." Um, didn't you look at it?
"...lacked the United States Property marking..." That just means it wasn't a Lend/Lease piece. Had a real issue 191A1 years ago with no United States Property marking.

Sigh....so much disinformation in this post I almost don't know where to start, but here goes.

Deals on guns can still be had, so to find a a real USGI R-R for $1200 is really not an improbable thing at all. In the last few years I have scored a USP marked 1917 vintage 1911 in 95%+ condition for $800, a 1918 USGI also in 95%+ condition for $1400 and a very nice Ithaca 1911A1 for $1200, so they certainly can be found.

The slide notch was indeed being hardened during WWII. My reference works aren't handy right now so I can't give you and exact date, but for instance, my early 1942 Colt USGI 1911A1 has a hardened slide notch visible a a darker area in the parkerized finish.

ALL 1911's produced for the US government were marked "United States Property", ALL of them. My 1914 Springfield Armory made 1911 has as well as the other half dozen I currently, all the way up to my 1945 Remington Rand. I probably don't need to spell it out, but guns made prior to WWII could hardly fall under the Lend Lease Act. Lend lease 1911's were pulled from regular government production and shipped to Britain and other L-L recipients like China and Russia. S&W and Colt revolvers made specifically for L-L were indeed marked "US Property" to fill the legal requirement of the Lend Lease Act.

If you see a "real" USGI 1911/1911A1 without the "US Property" It was either removed by someone after it left government service, or it may have been a lunchbox special. Guns that were mutilated by having the USP removed are not contactable and are worth considerably less than one in unaltered condition.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 1, 2020, 04:56 AM

Some participants in this discussion seem to have scanned the original post too quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikef262

There was a Colt labeled as a "Colt WWII Repro". It lacked the United States Property marking, but was definitely interesting.

**Unclenick** · January 1, 2020, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highpower

The slide notch was indeed being hardened during WWII. My reference works aren't handy right now so I can't give you and exact date, but for instance, my early 1942 Colt USGI 1911A1 has a hardened slide notch visible a a darker area in the parkerized finish.

My misinformation, by word of mouth, came from a retired airforce match armorer who advised me to watch out for the soft slides in GI issue guns from the war era. It's possible he had run into swapped-in slides from an earlier time. So, my question for you, if you have any information on it is, when did that hardening start? Was it one of the changes initiated with the A1? I don't have printed reference information on the 1911's history, other than the cursory things that usually show up in technical books.

mag1911 · January 2, 2020, 04:58 AM

The Pistol Integration Committee approved flame hardening the slide stop notch 30 December 1942. Colt started around No 880000 and the other makers shortly thereafter per Charles Clawson's Collectors Guide, 3ed, p69.

martin08 · January 2, 2020, 03:52 PM

There are a couple of excellent pics of the slide-stop notch from the link in the OP.

There appears to be no appreciable wear at all. Looks good to go, no matter the correct information or misinformation.

December 29, 2019, 03:08 PM	#1
Mikef262 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 350	Remington-Rand 1911 Hey guys, Decided to drop into a local gun show yesterday, in search of a USGI 1911. I remember there used to be plenty at this particular show a few years ago. Now, I only found 3 authentic ones. There was a Colt labeled as a "Colt WWII Repro". It lacked the United States Property marking, but was definitely interesting. I wound up back at the first table I stopped at that had a Remington Rand 1911 listed at $1200. I wound up talking him into $1100. He insisted on telling me the "story behind it", which he was definitely using as a sale point. Almost offered him the full $1200 just to shut up haha. So the finish is rough, grips are newer, and unbeknownst to me the barrel was shot smooth. Luckily, a few momths back I bought a mix master 1911 that had a remington rand slide, and a high standard barrel, so I just swapped barrels, and got that problem taken care of. Dating the serial number puts it at about http://imgur.com/gallery/kJrc4XO Hopefully the link works for pictures. Last edited by Mikef262; December 29, 2019 at 04:10 PM.

December 29, 2019, 04:37 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,742	The barrel was smooth? You mean, no rifling? I've had a couple of guys tell me the rifling was shot out of their barrels, only for me to apply a carbon remover and have the rifling magically reappear. Mind you, you can shoot out a throat or funnel a muzzle, but I know of no way bullets can remove rifling. A defective barrel is a possibility, I suppose. IIRC, the Remington Rand has a soft slide. So the magazine release can gradually peen its notch wider in the slot. Later Colts had that location flame-hardened, but I don't think that change made it in time for WWII. Anyway, keep an eye on it for burrs that may affect operation. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 30, 2019, 12:31 AM	#3
vkeith Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2012 Posts: 108	Nice find! I love my Remington Rand (1530XXX). __________________ An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

December 30, 2019, 11:31 PM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 11,106	Mr. O'Heir seems to post a lot of incorrect stuff, and then leaves the thread. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 30, 2019, 02:25 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	At $1200 it's not a real issue 1911A1. Those run around 2 grand and up depending on condition. The days of milsurp stuff being cheap are long gone. "...unbeknownst to me..." Um, didn't you look at it? "...lacked the United States Property marking..." That just means it wasn't a Lend/Lease piece. Had a real issue 191A1 years ago with no United States Property marking.

December 30, 2019, 02:42 PM	#5
Mikef262 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 350	T.O'Heir, two different guns I talked about. The one I purchased was the Remington Rand, and dated at 1943 based off the serial number. Please explain how it was never issued? Remington Rand made these 1911's for the military under contract. It is marked United States Property, so it was definitely owned by the military at some point. All stampings described in the original post also suggest it was inspected by military armorers. Not trying to argue, just curious what makes you believe that? Simply the price paid?

December 30, 2019, 03:19 PM	#6
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,967	I inherited one from a cousin. It was a mix match from the arsenal. It had a Remington Rand slide and an Ithaca frame, determined by the numbers on each. High Standard made most of the barrels (somewhere around 1.3 million of them) for that era.

December 30, 2019, 11:49 PM	#8
Mikef262 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 350	Bill, Looking at his comments on other threads, I see that to be true. I did not believe his comment to be accurate, but then again, I am young, and recently gotten a job that pays me well enough to afford the expensive guns I have always wanted. I am by no means an expert on these old guns, and had no clue what any of the markings were until I took it home and researched them. I knew of Remington rand prior to the purchase, but any other stampings such as the FJA or G and T marks were foreign to me.

January 2, 2020, 04:58 AM	#12
mag1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Posts: 140	The Pistol Integration Committee approved flame hardening the slide stop notch 30 December 1942. Colt started around No 880000 and the other makers shortly thereafter per Charles Clawson's Collectors Guide, 3ed, p69.

January 2, 2020, 03:52 PM	#13
martin08 Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2009 Posts: 181	There are a couple of excellent pics of the slide-stop notch from the link in the OP. There appears to be no appreciable wear at all. Looks good to go, no matter the correct information or misinformation.