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Old December 26, 2019, 02:28 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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Interesting Article on Cultural Aspects of Gun Deaths

This writer examines gun homicides and gun suicides and motes that they rarely correlate. In fact, they are often contrary - areas with low gun homicide frequently have high gun suicide. He goes on to extrapolate this with population demographics in an interesting way that suggests some populations are more predisposed to suicide.

All in all, it is just an interesting analysis of the trends that is pretty straightforward on the facts with no propaganda.
https://medium.com/handwaving-freako...l-277cb90fa06d
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Old December 29, 2019, 02:52 PM   #2
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A very interesting article and I found the comments to the article very interesting too.

Quote:
What I can say, from grinding on these maps for several days, is that “gun deaths” as defined are a deeply cultural problem, and only slightly (if at all) related to gun availability. Not just for homicide, but for suicide as well. Further, the cultural and genetic makeup of our country is so different than other countries, that comparisons between them and us are simply not viable.
The article is way more than just another "it's not the guns" article and well worth a look.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:09 PM   #3
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Very interesting article. It shows the counties where homicide rates are often the inverse of suicide rates which comprise the bulk of total gun deaths. A must read treatise on the subject. No biases, just pure facts.
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Old January 1, 2020, 03:10 AM   #4
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Define "gun death"? its horrid grammar if you mean people who die from gunshot wounds.

Guns are inanimate objects. They are not, and never have been alive, therefore they do not die.

If the people showing us maps and "studies" cannot and do not master basic elementary school level English, why should I believe they are competent with more complex subjects?

If you want to use the phrase "gun death" then it should apply to guns that "die" because they are worn out or broken beyond repair.

Call it Homicide or Suicide, because that's what it is. It can only be one of those or "accidental". There is no other option I know of. Calling them "gun deaths" trivializes human death and we should not use the term.

Simply put, saying "gun death" to me shows you are too lazy to type out "death due to gunshot wound", or some other accurate description.

It's a "sound byte" term coined by people who favor unilateral personal disarmament, (meaning no guns for us, guns for them, in the hands of people they hire) commonly referred to as "gun control".

We do ourselves no favors using their BS terms as if they were correct and accurate.

And, yes, people killing people, themselves or others IS cultural, its economic, its racial, its everything we are. Don't see that maps of who does what, where, and how often shows us anything useful that we didn't already know. But then, I suppose some people didn't know it...

Additionally I wonder why just focus on gun suicides and homicides? people kill themselves and others with other tools too, you know.....
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Old January 1, 2020, 08:35 AM   #5
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It is an interesting article, but is it too short or too long?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJ Campbell
Put even more hastily and sloppily, gun homicide and gun suicide are behaviors, and behaviors are functions of culture.
Seems nearly indisputable. However the author also hints at a genetic component for suicide. Why not a genetic component for homicide too? Perhaps because it leads to dead ends. Those of us of European background are from a population the history of which is largely defined by organized homicide for millenia. The transition to a peaceful New England can't be genetic. The other dead end to a genetic explanation is political -- if population X has a very high homicide rate that is genetic in cause, incarceration as a disincentive is bound to be only modestly effective, and invites viewing a murderer from that population differently. Neither idea will find a wide audience.

The 11 Nations Map puts me in Yankeedom. In my practice, I've had some exposure to the topic in men who see themselves as self-sufficient and view their arm as a reassurance of their independence and free choice in a very concrete way. If life becomes intolerable to them, no one can force them to tolerate it. That's not a justification for the act, only a statement of their frame of mind. Maybe it is a more simply described problem than homicide, but I don't think that has a public policy solution.
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Old January 1, 2020, 03:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
However the author also hints at a genetic component for suicide. Why not a genetic component for homicide too? Perhaps because it leads to dead ends.
You probably didn't realize it, but its a really horrid pun. Homicide and Suicide leading to "dead ends"?? ouch!

Any claim that the genetic background of a population or an individual determines behavior is just pure crap.

The classic stereotypical example is the family where with both identical genetics and identical social situations, (the same "Nature and Nurture") one child grows up to a cop/priest/teacher, and another to be a criminal thug/rapist/murderer, and a third to be a lawyer or politician...

Culture only matters in what it makes socially acceptable, or not. I will not say culture does not have an influence on personal choice, but it is not the determining factor. Free will is. I believe genetics has even LESS influence on individual free will.

I don't know why it isn't blindingly obvious. It's free will. Over and above everything else. People harm other people, or themselves because they WANT TO.

NOTHING else is the determining factor. You can find all kinds of correlations or links between anything you choose, depending on where you set your parameters. Doesn't mean A causes B, only that there is some level of relationship. Correlation is not causation.

You can say the bad thing happens because of genetics, or culture, or economic conditions, but those are LIES. The bad things happen because individuals CHOOSE to make them happen.

The proof of this is everywhere and yet so many choose to ignore it. What's the proof? Simply the millions of people in exactly the same situations that DON'T harm their fellow man.

If it isn't free will, then what is it? Demonic possession?? I suppose it might be, though that idea has fallen out of favor in the last few centuries...except on tv...
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Old January 1, 2020, 04:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
...a really horrid pun.
Recognition is reward enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44AMP
I don't know why it isn't blindingly obvious. It's free will.
I don't believe Campbell's cultural thesis excludes free will. Culture can frame one's choices. The choices of many Okinawans as the US invaded might be more difficult to contemplate in other cultures. If people in a French town habitually jaywalk and drive through stop signs, but people in a german town just a few miles away obey traffic signals even when no one is coming, those are all individual choices, but the culture may influence and describe the pattern of those decisions.
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Old January 2, 2020, 12:16 AM   #8
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Culture can frame the choices as to what is "acceptable" or what is cowardice but it doesn't MAKE the choices, individual people do.

every Okinawan who could have, didn't jump off those cliffs. Wanna bet there's at least one German who jaywalks (if he thinks none of his peer will see him)??

Quote:
I don't believe Campbell's cultural thesis excludes free will.
I don't think it excluded free will, however I didn't see any mention of it, either.

I don't think there is any "metric" for measuring free will. Certainly nothing like the ones for measuring deaths per 100,000 or genetic background or economic status.

For one thing, there's no way to measure what people haven't done yet.
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Old January 2, 2020, 05:59 AM   #9
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You mean places with really strict guns laws still have a lot of homicides? Impossible!

It is sad that 2/3 of Gun deaths are from suicide though. I’ve known this statistic, but wouldn’t those people just kill themselves by other means if they didn’t have access to a gun? I know the mortality rate for suicide with a firearm is far higher that by other methods. I have also read that many people who do survive suicide attempts are glad that the got a second chance. I lost a cousin to suicide about 30 years ago. He used a gun.

I had another close friend commit suicide a little over 20 years ago. She had attempted suicide several times and she asked me to take her to the range. No way in heck was I willing to take a suicidal person to the range. She ended up asphyxiating herself with a garbage bag at a mental treatment center.

I know no form of legislation will prevent suicides, but it hits pretty close to home.
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Old January 2, 2020, 02:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
It is sad that 2/3 of Gun deaths are from suicide though.
Aside from my previous comments about the term "Gun death" (what gun dies in a suicide??) I am reminded of the words of Archie Bunker, when his daughter was upset about the number of people who killed themselves with guns..."would you be happier if they jumped out of windows, little girl???"
(or something very close to that...)

Quote:
I’ve known this statistic, but wouldn’t those people just kill themselves by other means if they didn’t have access to a gun?
The ones who are determined, do.

There are, essentially, two kinds of people who ATTEMPT suicide. Serious ones, who generally succeed, and if one method is blocked they will use another, and another until they succeed.

And people who are not AS serious, who choose a method from which there is a higher possibility of recovery. These are the "cry for help" people, who make an attempt in order to get attention. Sometimes those attempts succeed, sometimes the people get rescued, which seems to be their main intent all along.

For example, someone who takes pills or does some other method that takes time versus using a gun or jumping off a high place, where once the decision is made there is no time, or possibility of changing events.

Suicide being "wrong" or a "sin" is a Christian concept. Other cultures do not view it the same way. It's a tragedy for those who didn't want the person to die, but its the desired goal of the person who commits suicide.

Again, Free Will at work.
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