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Old January 14, 2020, 05:08 PM   #1
Aguila Blanca
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So you want to carry a .380?

But .380 is too "wimpy" and doesn't offer adequate penetration.

Federal has you covered. According to a recent press release, there's a New Hydra-Shok Deep in .380 ACP that exceeds the FBI minimum penetration distance in both bare ballistics gelatin and through denim. If the inability of .380 ACP to satisfy the FBI's penetration standard is what's been holding you back from carrying a smaller, lighter .380 pistol, this might be the solution.

http://media.vistaoutdoor.com/p/FP/1239.aspx

Disclaimer: I have no relationship with Federal. This one of a bazillion press releases I've received recently as part of the run-up to the SHOT Show next week.
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Old January 14, 2020, 05:47 PM   #2
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Please everyone take this message to heart and go out and try some of this ammunition. Why?

1. Federal is in my neck of the woods and I root for them like I root for the Vikings...mindless optimism.
2. I remember way back when (maybe last 25 years or so) Federal Folk got upset that all the US shooters were using European ammunition so they came up with a VERY accurate .22 round, convinced some US shooters to use it, and we won a couple of Olympic medals.
3. Federal has GOT to show a profit or they may not pay off on the really good rebate they had in December 2019 and I haven't got my rebate yet.

Please give this post all the attention it deserves.
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Old January 14, 2020, 08:09 PM   #3
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I like federal hydra-shoks in my LWS32s and G42.
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Old January 15, 2020, 04:02 AM   #4
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Years ago, I wanted the most accurate .45 acp defensive load I could buy.
I started with the 230 grain Federal Hydra-Shok in my Colt Custom Carry Commander.
I loaded 7 rounds in the Colt - ran a sheet of copy paper on the target holder out to about 25 feet & put all 7 rounds into pretty much the same hole.

I ended my search right there and have been a fan of Hydra-Shok ever since.

I just hope Federal doesn't muck up a good thing & they keep the 230 grain load. I see the story mentions a 212 grain .45 acp load.
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Old January 15, 2020, 07:34 AM   #5
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Looks like similar technology..I use Lehigh Xtreme defender(NOT penetrator) or G9 in my G42 and G26(9mm)..

It also has good wound channels and good penetration thru lotsa clothes but I'll take a look at the mentioned stuff..G9 and Lehigh expensive(like $1.20 per round)...
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Old January 15, 2020, 01:11 PM   #6
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Those that can do no better than a pocket 380 may have another "decent" (cough, cough) ammo choice with that.

Sig V-Crown and Hornady Critical Defense also good 380 choices for when "better than nothing" is the best one can do.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/
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Old January 15, 2020, 02:03 PM   #7
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"...But .380 is too "wimpy"..." It wasn't until Winchester discontinued the Silver Tip.
"...FBI's penetration standard..." They do not set 'standards' for anything.
"...through denim..." Denim is just cotton. It is not and never has been remotely bullet resistant never mind bullet proof. A knitting needle will go through denim.
There's nothing 'new' about a hydra shok bullet(that's just another JHP) either. As I recall, they stared out as low penetration bullets for Sky Marshalls keeping the terrs off commercial air a way back when.
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Old January 15, 2020, 02:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USNRet93 View Post
Looks like similar technology..I use Lehigh Xtreme defender(NOT penetrator) or G9 in my G42 and G26(9mm)..
Technology similar to what?
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Old January 15, 2020, 02:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir
"...FBI's penetration standard..." They do not set 'standards' for anything.
Perhaps I should have written "FBI protocol" rather than "FBI standard." Either way, the FBI looks for a minimum penetration distance.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...-self-defense/

http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI%20Am...0Protocol.html

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/a...ing-standards/

Call it "standard" or "protocol," the FBI wants penetration of 12" to 18" and, historically, .380 ACP JHP ammunition couldn't meet the minimum 12" penetration reliably. To achieve penetration with .380 ACP, you had to use FMJ ammo and sacrifice expansion.
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Old January 15, 2020, 02:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...But .380 is too "wimpy"..." It wasn't until Winchester discontinued the Silver Tip.
"...FBI's penetration standard..." They do not set 'standards' for anything.
"...through denim..." Denim is just cotton. It is not and never has been remotely bullet resistant never mind bullet proof. A knitting needle will go through denim.
There's nothing 'new' about a hydra shok bullet(that's just another JHP) either. As I recall, they stared out as low penetration bullets for Sky Marshalls keeping the terrs off commercial air a way back when.
They still make the Silvertip. https://winchester.com/Products/Ammu...3c-73%22%5D%7D

FBI standards, like them or not, are standards by which bullet penetration and expansion are tested and accepted in the industry.

No one ever said denim was bullet proof. You clearly understand nothing about this subject.

Last edited by JohnKSa; January 16, 2020 at 12:12 AM. Reason: .
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Old January 15, 2020, 02:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post

Call it "standard" or "protocol," the FBI wants penetration of 12" to 18" and, historically, .380 ACP JHP ammunition couldn't meet the minimum 12" penetration reliably. To achieve penetration with .380 ACP, you had to use FMJ ammo and sacrifice expansion.
Lucky Gunner shows some of the 380 JHP bullets doing fairly well in their tests, though they don't test all the protocol conditions.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...-tests/#380ACP
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Old January 15, 2020, 04:05 PM   #12
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just a side note, all this FBI standard stuff is just their own internal requirements which started when the NIJ rubber stamped the ballistic vests made from Zylon as acceptable. since the NIJ could not be counted on for true testing, the FBI began their own ballistic vest testing protocol. this thought process turned into ammunition testing protocol as well.
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Old January 15, 2020, 07:29 PM   #13
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Interesting, thanks for the heads up.
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Old January 15, 2020, 08:51 PM   #14
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So you want to carry a .380?
Nope, I saw too many people shot with .380's as an inner city cop to carry one as anything but a BUG. But even my BUG is a 357 magnum, when you need it you need it BAD.
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Old January 15, 2020, 08:57 PM   #15
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"...But .380 is too "wimpy"..." It wasn't until Winchester discontinued the Silver Tip.
Had a friend, fellow cop that was shot with 3 .380 silvertips. He was still able to retrieve his J frame 38 from an ankle holster and plug one of the ambushers with a 125 grn +P JHP. When he got out of the hospital he traded it for a 1911 .45 ACP.

Quote:
There's nothing 'new' about a hydra shok bullet(that's just another JHP) either. As I recall, they stared out as low penetration bullets for Sky Marshalls keeping the terrs off commercial air a way back when.
Quote:
It was originally patented by ammunition designer Tom Burczynski. Hydra-Shok was debuted in 1988 after the FBI requested a bullet with better terminal ballistics than traditional cup and core projectiles.
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Old January 15, 2020, 10:53 PM   #16
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Regardless of the handgun, just know that whatever caliber you're using it may very well not be as effective as you think it should be. That is why God made rifles, and even then...
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Old January 16, 2020, 12:38 AM   #17
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Even a wimpy gun is better than no gun at all & a wimpy gun may hold off a bad guy until you can get to your rifle.
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Old January 16, 2020, 01:04 AM   #18
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Yea, ok. So this thread is going to morph into another opinionated 15 pages of armchair ballistitions arguing over 380 or 9mm or 40 S&W or 45 acp. Carry whatever "whimp 380" or "make my day" model 29 44 mag you feel you will have the highest probability of placing accurate lethal shot(s) to cease a potential life threatining situation.
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Old January 16, 2020, 03:22 AM   #19
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"...through denim..." Denim is just cotton. It is not and never has been remotely bullet resistant never mind bullet proof. A knitting needle will go through denim.
I'm pretty sure nobody ever said it was. Where the idea of evaluating projectiles through various layers of denim and other cloths came from, was from a collective idea that formed that suggested there is a chance that denim (or typical garment material) will clog up the hollow point and, in essence, render it into being or acting like a FMJ.
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Old January 16, 2020, 04:18 AM   #20
Hal
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There's nothing 'new' about a hydra shok bullet(that's just another JHP) either.
Take a look at the available videos on the Federal Ammunition web site.
Night and day difference between the Hydra-Shok Deep and the old Hydra-Shok.

The only things they have in common are - name and a center post, but, the center post is completely different.
They also mention the Deep uses a different specialized powder.

https://www.federalpremium.com/handg...1-P45HSD1.html
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Old January 16, 2020, 07:37 AM   #21
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Even a wimpy gun is better than no gun at all & a wimpy gun may hold off a bad guy until you can get to your rifle.
If you can carry a .380 you can carry a J frame 357 mag. Aside from fantasy, you are not fighting back to anything. The fight will be won or lost with what you have on you at the time of the fight.
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Old January 16, 2020, 08:20 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by 74A95 View Post
Technology similar to what?
Something that isn't adversely effected by getting clogged up by lotsa clothing, then being like a FMJ or needing high velocity, long barrel to create a decent wound channel...
Quote:
Call it "standard" or "protocol," the FBI wants penetration of 12" to 18" and, historically, .380 ACP JHP ammunition couldn't meet the minimum 12" penetration reliably. To achieve penetration with .380 ACP, you had to use FMJ ammo and sacrifice expansion.
G9 or Lehigh, in 'testing(I know, 'testing')achieves this, decent wound channel and decent penetration(in the 12-18 inch range)...
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Old January 16, 2020, 09:19 PM   #23
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I'd like to see one of these ammo manufacturers try something different like a 105gr FMJ for the .380. Somebody (Rem?) makes a 102gr HP, so a 105 gr FMJ should be easy enough. I doubt if anyone will do that because the money is in the gimmick-tip bullets, but a heavier FMJ might improve ballistics without the high $ price tag and unreliable feeding and expansion of the lighter HP's.
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Old January 17, 2020, 02:15 AM   #24
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It's a welcome addition, one .380 desperately needed, but I'd rather stick with non-expanding defense ammo like Lehigh or Inceptor for the .380.
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Old January 18, 2020, 01:28 PM   #25
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I carry a nice Beretta 85 in satin nickel occasionally. I have thought about using some lead hardcast bullets for loads, although i normally have JHPs loaded.

Thanks for posting about the new Hydra-Shok Deep bullets. I'm going to check them out.
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