Citori Firing Pins and Springs

dreaming · October 20, 2016, 11:49 AM

After putting 30K+ shells through my 12 gauge XS Skeet I have begun getting a ftf due to a light strike in the lower barrel. I note that a tiny piece is busted off the head of the lower pin. Pins and springs are original.

Is it a good idea to get the pins from Browning and hammer springs from J&P?

FITASC · October 20, 2016, 02:41 PM

You should be able to get everything from Brownells

dreaming · October 20, 2016, 03:31 PM

You don't think the J&P springs are worth the money? If so perhaps I should just order from Browning. Especially since Brownells is out of stock.

eastbank · October 20, 2016, 04:03 PM

maybe browning will replace the fireing pins and springs, its worth a shot. 30K is a walk in the park for most browning citori,s, i have six and have never had a problem. i also have a XS 20ga. eastbank.

FITASC · October 20, 2016, 04:08 PM

I am not familiar with J&P, but if you are, and have confidence in their quality, then use them. Browning is not noted for fast service anyway.

Added: Any decent gunsmith probably has the parts already, unless you were planning on this being a DIY project

dreaming · October 20, 2016, 05:57 PM

I never would think that Browning would replace the pins and springs for free, but I suppose they might, as I understand that the need to replace the lower pin fairly frequently is common and I may as well do both pins and springs while I have it opened up. I may be wrong.

Yes, diy. I already removed and cleaned the pins, which was easy peasy. Replacing mainsprings should be just a tad more difficult (hopefully).

BigJimP · October 20, 2016, 06:04 PM

I have 4 XS skeet model citori's ...my 12ga has well over 150,000 shells thru it - and i've never had to replace a pin. So you probably have,a defective pin / i would contact browning and discuss - there was a time anout 10 yrs ago when they had some improperly heat treated pins.

But they are not known to be too quick on repairs - but i would give them a chance. I don't know anything about J&P parts.

I would suggest you replace both pins - and both springs...

dreaming · October 20, 2016, 07:47 PM

I saw your post, Jim, just after faxing off the parts order form. It may be that the ftf problem is due to something other than the pins or the springs. I will have to see if I can locate the unfired shells. The one the other day was definitely a light strike, but as it was a reload I want to take a look at how deeply the primer was seated.

[This is embarrassing, but now that I ordered parts I dug out what I believe was the ftf from the other day and, while it didn't fire, the strike isn't all that light nor does anything else about the shell suggest why it failed. Possibly I got a bad lot of primers.

As for the lower pin, it does appear to have a very small chip on the face, but I don't know if it is enough to lessen the efficacy of it.]

FITASC · October 20, 2016, 09:44 PM

Depending on the ammo, you could be piercing primers with the lower firing pin (something that is not unknown with Brownings)

BigJimP · October 20, 2016, 11:47 PM

Back from my conference today -- so thought i would explain better.....

Under magnification...you can see enough of the head of the firing pin / after you dry fire both barrels - to see if the head of each pin is smooth & normally shaped or if there is any chipping or erosion to the head of the pin. If the pins are in fact chipped or eroded ....they should be replaced asap / regardless of what caused it.

Put some solvent on a patch or a Qtip and make sure it's not just crud in there / or crud sticking to the pin. Maybe blow some compressed air into the firing pin holes in the breech ...to make sure what you are seeing is not "blow-back crud"...

Firing pins are hardened....and the Internet talk 10 yrs ago or so, was focused on guys that were using Chedite primers ( during the primer shortage ) were seeing some firing pin erosion on Browning Citori's ...and the discussion was that Chedite primers were corrosive & some Citori's had a batch of improperly hardened pins -- or some combination of each that caused the problem...( and guys using Chedite primers were saying that they seemed to be seeing more pierced primers in their fired shells as they went to reload them). I don't remember if Browning accepted their pins were bad or not....most guys I knew just bought parts and fixed them - to keep their guns in use in that season...not wanting to lose them for awhile to service evaluation...

Some shooters I knew quit using chedite as soon as they could get Win or whatever they preferred.......but at the time I was still shooting 20,000 to 25,000 shells with Chedite primers exclusively ...and while I was seeing some spent shells with pierced primers, none of my XS Skeet models or my XT Trap model guns were showing any corrosion of firing pins - and still aren't, so I just continued to use them - and still do.

But I have not heard any talk of this issue surfacing again in the last 5 yrs...

You would have to take the stock off the receiver ....and remove the firing pins and springs to do a thorough inspection of the pins and springs...( and that is not something you should attempt without some extensive research and understanding on exactly how it is done safely )...but if you see chipping on pin heads - the pins are bad and need to come out. If the pins look OK...you could have broken a spring ( i'm seeing more firing pin spring failures on my handguns lately / all in 1911 springs, when I take them out a coil or two will break or be broken) ....and i'm starting to wonder about spring quality in general these days because I have never seen any spring failure rates like i'm seeing now on my 1911's -- even Wilson combat uses Wolf springs...but it's troubling me a little...even though I've never seen a Citori with a broken firing pin spring...and I don't know who Browning buys springs from - but it's probably Wolf...

But yes, improperly seated primers will show lighter strikes ....because when the pin strikes the primer ( on a shell with a high primer ) the pin strike seats the primer to its proper depth ...and firing that shell in that barrel a 2nd time results in it firing normally -- tells me you have some bad shells with improperly seated primers or high primers ( but i'my sure you know that).../ but if that shell fires the 2nd time in the same barrel, you have a primer depth problem....

What kind of primers are in these reloads ....( please don't tell me they're some oddball brand...)....are they your reloads ...??

dreaming · October 21, 2016, 12:23 PM

No, FITASC, on any pierced primers.

I called Browning and, if parts ever picks up, a pin is being sent under warranty. Parts didn't want to do it, but with a little push it caved when I suggested that a pin should last 100K rounds and everyone knows about the issue with lower Citori pins.

BigJim. I already removed the pins and did a mini cleaning and lube just yesterday. I was also going to order and replace mainsprings, but based on what you guys said that is overkill.

They are reloads with CCI primers. The head of the lower pin is clearly chipped. 1/4 to 1/3 is gone. When I had the stock off, the spring coils looked fine.

While I am waiting for a pin, I intend to keep shooting and it will be interesting to see if I get more frequent failures. A failure rate of 0.5% is tolerable for practice, but why do the failures always happen in the middle of what looks like a straight?

FITASC · October 21, 2016, 12:45 PM

When I was shooting my O/U, I needed the top latch spring replaced at 90,000. While inside I had the smith change out the firing puns and springs. At close to 300,000 I found I like a gas gun better now, but the O/U is still going strong. Brownings aren't the best balanced of handling, but they are fairly robust.

dreaming · October 21, 2016, 12:57 PM

Agree FITASC on weight. It possible has to do with problems on my nemesis station of H2. To see the bird in the window I have to hold so close to the house that swinger that big piece of lumber takes me too long.

BigJimP · October 21, 2016, 11:06 PM

Good to hear you already had it apart and inspected ( didn't know you had that kind of finesse in you )..

....

And i'm glad they sent you a pin ( I wonder why they didn't just send a whole kit / springs and pins),,,,,but maybe they will...

I just checked and Brownells has pins and springs in Stock again...

dreaming · October 22, 2016, 01:25 PM

I hope they are in stock, but I just looked again and the ones in stock aren't for 12 gauge, but 20, 28, and .410.

Finesse? I was thinking of adding a dab of JB Weld to fill in the chipped out area of the face of the pin. Seriously, I even got a set of hollow ground screwdrivers.

I hope the problem does't worsen too quickly, as pins are back ordered at Browning, which supports the fact that they have a problem with the lower pins. I was told it may be a month until I get one.

FITASC · October 22, 2016, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Agree FITASC on weight. It possible has to do with problems on my nemesis station of H2. To see the bird in the window I have to hold so close to the house that swinger that big piece of lumber takes me too long.

When I started clay games, I shot skeet. In my 30s, I held at the window; in my 40s I moved out about 1/3 of the way to the stake; in my 50s, I held the muzzle about 2/3 of the way to the stake - all while keeping my eyes on the window - I had enough lead built in, no overt rushing - just a nice smooth swing. That really helped when I went to sporting clays and FITASC - ESPECIALLY FITASC, as that requires a low gun mount - smooth and consistent beats jerky and fast in the mount department everytime

dreaming · October 22, 2016, 03:00 PM

I physically cannot see the window if I hold 1/3 of the way to the stake.

FITASC · October 22, 2016, 05:31 PM

turn your head and not your barrels.....amazing what your peripheral vision can do.

Look point, hold point, insertion point, break point -they are not one and the same

T. O'Heir · October 23, 2016, 11:25 AM

"...decent gunsmith probably has the parts..." Highly unlikely. Unless the shop is an Authorized Browning repair/warrantee shop.
http://www.browning.com/support/part...r-listing.html
JB Weld is just epoxy with powdered steel in it vs fibreglass. Isn't made to fix that sort of injury.

dreaming · October 23, 2016, 03:38 PM

Some complain that smiths don't want to sell you parts, but keep them for work they get. Still, I will call what I believe may be the local authorized repair facility.

FITASC, How do you turn your head, but not your barrels, if you are keeping your head on the stock?

FITASC · October 23, 2016, 06:33 PM

If, for one reason or another, I need to have my hold point further out from the machine (skeet, sporting doesn't matter), I use a pre-mounted "soft mount" where my head isn't on the stock until the target crosses my insertion point, then the stock comes up the last inch or two as I basically "move, mount, shoot"

dreaming · October 24, 2016, 06:20 PM

Quote:

If, for one reason or another, I need to have my hold point further out from the machine (skeet, sporting doesn't matter), I use a pre-mounted "soft mount" where my head isn't on the stock until the target crosses my insertion point, then the stock comes up the last inch or two as I basically "move, mount, shoot"

I will think about that and applying something of the sort to Hi2, but probably not use such a technique on the other stations.

FITASC · October 24, 2016, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Highly unlikely. Unless the shop is an Authorized Browning repair/warrantee shop.

Or, they see enough of them to just order in bulk when they run low (which is what the guy I used would do)

dreaming · October 26, 2016, 12:06 PM

Anyway, while the pin is backordered I had no failure to fires yesterday, after cleaning the pins and pin cavities, while improving on that nasty Hi2. Thnaks for the help.

dreaming · February 11, 2017, 09:49 PM

3-1/2 months it took, but Browning sent me the under barrel firing pin. Yay!

October 20, 2016, 11:49 AM	#1
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	Citori Firing Pins and Springs After putting 30K+ shells through my 12 gauge XS Skeet I have begun getting a ftf due to a light strike in the lower barrel. I note that a tiny piece is busted off the head of the lower pin. Pins and springs are original. Is it a good idea to get the pins from Browning and hammer springs from J&P?

October 20, 2016, 02:41 PM	#2
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,457	You should be able to get everything from Brownells __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 20, 2016, 04:08 PM	#5
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,457	I am not familiar with J&P, but if you are, and have confidence in their quality, then use them. Browning is not noted for fast service anyway. Added: Any decent gunsmith probably has the parts already, unless you were planning on this being a DIY project __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 20, 2016, 07:47 PM	#8
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	I saw your post, Jim, just after faxing off the parts order form. It may be that the ftf problem is due to something other than the pins or the springs. I will have to see if I can locate the unfired shells. The one the other day was definitely a light strike, but as it was a reload I want to take a look at how deeply the primer was seated. [This is embarrassing, but now that I ordered parts I dug out what I believe was the ftf from the other day and, while it didn't fire, the strike isn't all that light nor does anything else about the shell suggest why it failed. Possibly I got a bad lot of primers. As for the lower pin, it does appear to have a very small chip on the face, but I don't know if it is enough to lessen the efficacy of it.] Last edited by dreaming; October 20, 2016 at 07:58 PM.

October 20, 2016, 09:44 PM	#9
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,457	Depending on the ammo, you could be piercing primers with the lower firing pin (something that is not unknown with Brownings) __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 20, 2016, 03:31 PM	#3
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	You don't think the J&P springs are worth the money? If so perhaps I should just order from Browning. Especially since Brownells is out of stock.

October 20, 2016, 04:03 PM	#4
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,451	maybe browning will replace the fireing pins and springs, its worth a shot. 30K is a walk in the park for most browning citori,s, i have six and have never had a problem. i also have a XS 20ga. eastbank.

October 20, 2016, 05:57 PM	#6
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	I never would think that Browning would replace the pins and springs for free, but I suppose they might, as I understand that the need to replace the lower pin fairly frequently is common and I may as well do both pins and springs while I have it opened up. I may be wrong. Yes, diy. I already removed and cleaned the pins, which was easy peasy. Replacing mainsprings should be just a tad more difficult (hopefully).

October 20, 2016, 06:04 PM	#7
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I have 4 XS skeet model citori's ...my 12ga has well over 150,000 shells thru it - and i've never had to replace a pin. So you probably have,a defective pin / i would contact browning and discuss - there was a time anout 10 yrs ago when they had some improperly heat treated pins. But they are not known to be too quick on repairs - but i would give them a chance. I don't know anything about J&P parts. I would suggest you replace both pins - and both springs...

October 20, 2016, 11:47 PM	#10
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Back from my conference today -- so thought i would explain better..... Under magnification...you can see enough of the head of the firing pin / after you dry fire both barrels - to see if the head of each pin is smooth & normally shaped or if there is any chipping or erosion to the head of the pin. If the pins are in fact chipped or eroded ....they should be replaced asap / regardless of what caused it. Put some solvent on a patch or a Qtip and make sure it's not just crud in there / or crud sticking to the pin. Maybe blow some compressed air into the firing pin holes in the breech ...to make sure what you are seeing is not "blow-back crud"... Firing pins are hardened....and the Internet talk 10 yrs ago or so, was focused on guys that were using Chedite primers ( during the primer shortage ) were seeing some firing pin erosion on Browning Citori's ...and the discussion was that Chedite primers were corrosive & some Citori's had a batch of improperly hardened pins -- or some combination of each that caused the problem...( and guys using Chedite primers were saying that they seemed to be seeing more pierced primers in their fired shells as they went to reload them). I don't remember if Browning accepted their pins were bad or not....most guys I knew just bought parts and fixed them - to keep their guns in use in that season...not wanting to lose them for awhile to service evaluation... Some shooters I knew quit using chedite as soon as they could get Win or whatever they preferred.......but at the time I was still shooting 20,000 to 25,000 shells with Chedite primers exclusively ...and while I was seeing some spent shells with pierced primers, none of my XS Skeet models or my XT Trap model guns were showing any corrosion of firing pins - and still aren't, so I just continued to use them - and still do. But I have not heard any talk of this issue surfacing again in the last 5 yrs... You would have to take the stock off the receiver ....and remove the firing pins and springs to do a thorough inspection of the pins and springs...( and that is not something you should attempt without some extensive research and understanding on exactly how it is done safely )...but if you see chipping on pin heads - the pins are bad and need to come out. If the pins look OK...you could have broken a spring ( i'm seeing more firing pin spring failures on my handguns lately / all in 1911 springs, when I take them out a coil or two will break or be broken) ....and i'm starting to wonder about spring quality in general these days because I have never seen any spring failure rates like i'm seeing now on my 1911's -- even Wilson combat uses Wolf springs...but it's troubling me a little...even though I've never seen a Citori with a broken firing pin spring...and I don't know who Browning buys springs from - but it's probably Wolf... But yes, improperly seated primers will show lighter strikes ....because when the pin strikes the primer ( on a shell with a high primer ) the pin strike seats the primer to its proper depth ...and firing that shell in that barrel a 2nd time results in it firing normally -- tells me you have some bad shells with improperly seated primers or high primers ( but i'my sure you know that).../ but if that shell fires the 2nd time in the same barrel, you have a primer depth problem.... What kind of primers are in these reloads ....( please don't tell me they're some oddball brand...)....are they your reloads ...?? Last edited by BigJimP; October 20, 2016 at 11:54 PM.

October 21, 2016, 12:23 PM	#11
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	No, FITASC, on any pierced primers. I called Browning and, if parts ever picks up, a pin is being sent under warranty. Parts didn't want to do it, but with a little push it caved when I suggested that a pin should last 100K rounds and everyone knows about the issue with lower Citori pins. BigJim. I already removed the pins and did a mini cleaning and lube just yesterday. I was also going to order and replace mainsprings, but based on what you guys said that is overkill. They are reloads with CCI primers. The head of the lower pin is clearly chipped. 1/4 to 1/3 is gone. When I had the stock off, the spring coils looked fine. While I am waiting for a pin, I intend to keep shooting and it will be interesting to see if I get more frequent failures. A failure rate of 0.5% is tolerable for practice, but why do the failures always happen in the middle of what looks like a straight? Last edited by dreaming; October 21, 2016 at 12:53 PM. Reason: correct failure rate

October 21, 2016, 12:45 PM	#12
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,457	When I was shooting my O/U, I needed the top latch spring replaced at 90,000. While inside I had the smith change out the firing puns and springs. At close to 300,000 I found I like a gas gun better now, but the O/U is still going strong. Brownings aren't the best balanced of handling, but they are fairly robust. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 21, 2016, 12:57 PM	#13
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	Agree FITASC on weight. It possible has to do with problems on my nemesis station of H2. To see the bird in the window I have to hold so close to the house that swinger that big piece of lumber takes me too long.

October 21, 2016, 11:06 PM	#14
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Good to hear you already had it apart and inspected ( didn't know you had that kind of finesse in you )...... And i'm glad they sent you a pin ( I wonder why they didn't just send a whole kit / springs and pins),,,,,but maybe they will... I just checked and Brownells has pins and springs in Stock again...

October 22, 2016, 01:25 PM	#15
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	I hope they are in stock, but I just looked again and the ones in stock aren't for 12 gauge, but 20, 28, and .410. Finesse? I was thinking of adding a dab of JB Weld to fill in the chipped out area of the face of the pin. Seriously, I even got a set of hollow ground screwdrivers. I hope the problem does't worsen too quickly, as pins are back ordered at Browning, which supports the fact that they have a problem with the lower pins. I was told it may be a month until I get one.

October 22, 2016, 03:00 PM	#17
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	I physically cannot see the window if I hold 1/3 of the way to the stake.

October 22, 2016, 05:31 PM	#18
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,457	turn your head and not your barrels.....amazing what your peripheral vision can do. Look point, hold point, insertion point, break point -they are not one and the same __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 23, 2016, 11:25 AM	#19
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...decent gunsmith probably has the parts..." Highly unlikely. Unless the shop is an Authorized Browning repair/warrantee shop. http://www.browning.com/support/part...r-listing.html JB Weld is just epoxy with powdered steel in it vs fibreglass. Isn't made to fix that sort of injury. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 23, 2016, 03:38 PM	#20
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	Some complain that smiths don't want to sell you parts, but keep them for work they get. Still, I will call what I believe may be the local authorized repair facility. FITASC, How do you turn your head, but not your barrels, if you are keeping your head on the stock? Last edited by dreaming; October 23, 2016 at 03:43 PM.

October 23, 2016, 06:33 PM	#21
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,457	If, for one reason or another, I need to have my hold point further out from the machine (skeet, sporting doesn't matter), I use a pre-mounted "soft mount" where my head isn't on the stock until the target crosses my insertion point, then the stock comes up the last inch or two as I basically "move, mount, shoot" __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

October 26, 2016, 12:06 PM	#24
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	Anyway, while the pin is backordered I had no failure to fires yesterday, after cleaning the pins and pin cavities, while improving on that nasty Hi2. Thnaks for the help.

February 11, 2017, 09:49 PM	#25
dreaming Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2016 Posts: 186	Firing Pin Arrived After 3.5 Months 3-1/2 months it took, but Browning sent me the under barrel firing pin. Yay!