Cost:Benefit Looking at Reloading - Page 4

leadcounsel · July 16, 2015, 01:18 AM

I'm speaking as an individual with multiple college level courses in economics which comprised a portion of my honors degree Bachelor of Arts, a Juris Doctor, a private entrepreneur, while I'm carrying nearly a 4.0 grade point average and 1/2 through my Masters of Business Administration degree, with "A's" in Accounting and Economics courses at graduate level:

If it's a hobby, then the cost is mostly irrelevant if you enjoy it and can afford it. All hobbies are costly - skiing, camping, skydiving, etc. My snowboarding hobby is expensive and offers zero return. It's not for economics, it's fun.

If this is to SAVE MONEY, you must factor in the value of:

-Cost of time - economic term is "opportunity costs." This is not just as you sit at the press. Factor in time setup, building bench, researching loads, ordering components online, measuring, weighting, testing loads, etc.
-Cost of floor space - your presumably rent or pay mortgage on square footage of your home. That is a factor X/sq. ft.
-Cost of startup equipment, which you can depreciate or amortize out over X years.

Reloaders conveniently forget the hundreds of dollars spent on all the equipment, the many square feet of floor space (each square foot in your home represents somewhere around $XXX/ft that you pay rent or mortgage on - so if reloading requires you to upscale the size of your home to accommodate reloading, for increased costs, you must factor that in), storage space, the cash outlay for all components, the constant hunt for brass, lead, primers, and powder, the hazards of having that stuff around... (a recent article in one of these reloading forums about a guy who had a massive amount of gunpowder and it ignited and blew up his house) and the hours of sitting in front of what is effectively a little press in your home - like a little Chinese sweat shop...

And just peruse the reloader section. I see frequent posts about serious mistakes that reloaders make resulting in blowing up their guns or causing injuries. And by the way, nobody will shoot or buy your reloaded ammo - that's how much reloaded ammo is trusted. So you could make 100,000 reloads that are worthless to anyone but you. Conversely, in a pinch you could recoup your investment in a purchase of 100,000 factory rounds if you needed to.

Let's reasonably assume you can earn $30 an hour at your profession. Let's also assume that the outlay for a good reloading setup, dies, accessories, workbench, etc. is $1000. (A Dillon Square Deal is $400, and advertises 300-500 rounds per hour, but does not factor in the "down time" for measuring, weighing, testing, pulling mistakes, shopping for components, setup, tear down, which cut deep into that hourly rate).

Let's say you can make a sustainable average 100 rounds an hour for 10 cents per 9mm round. It would take you 1000 hours + $10,000 in materials to make 100,000 rounds (100 rds/hr x 1000 hours = 100,000 rounds). 1,000 hours of foregone work @ $30/hr is $30,000 + $10,000 in raw materials + $1000 for the setup. Total economic cost of this 100,000 rounds is $41,000. The hand loaded ammo also has no economic value to anyone but you, so nearly zero resale value (there is a thread on one of these reloading sites about a reloader that died and the family could barely give away piles of his ammo due to the dangers and hassles of pulling the bullets or shooting it). And this doesn't factor the learning curve, floor storage space/cost, inconvenience, and risks of rolling your own.

*Note you lose money with each bullet using this very reasonable example. Even if you increased production and cut the time to 300 rounds per hour, that brings the labor to $10,000 + $10,000 materials + $1,000 for the setup = $21,000.

Conversely, let's say you buy 100,000 factory rounds at 20 cents per round, for $20,000 with the click of a button. http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Feder...-p/cal9115.htm Right here is 115 grain Federal 9x19 for $19 cents per round. It took me 10 seconds to find it. You could probably get a better price if you bought a pallet of it.
And you work those 1000 hours at a profession or side-job, earning $30,000. Total cost is $30,000 earned minus $20,000 spent on ammo, so you come out AHEAD $10,000 cash PLUS the factory ammo will retain 100% of it's value and probably increase over time.

The analysis may be different for exotic or particularly expensive ammo, or ammo that needs special tweaking, or the opportunity costs of a person's earning potential...
In my mind, it's clear that for most people, buying factory is the way to go unless you just absolutely love reloading as a hobby or are otherwise on a fixed income or unemployed - which is a different analysis.

From a purist economic standpoint, if you're gainfully employed and could otherwise be working, you may never reach an economic "break even" point. If fact, you could actually lose money for each bullet you make versus just buying a pallet of ammo and working at your job instead.

Jim243 · July 16, 2015, 02:10 AM

^^^^^^ here, here. Well I am glad to see someone's MBA was worth it.

After 47 years in Finance and Accounting, I am glad to see someone that understands it.

Stay safe and be well.
Jim

Road_Clam · July 16, 2015, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leadcounsel

Cost of startup equipment, which you can depreciate or amortize out over X years

I tried explaining this in post #20 , but for some reason many people don't share my logic. Spend $500+ on the initial handloading startup equipment and immediately your "-$500 and thereafter you need to shoot several thousand rounds to absorb the purchased cost of the equipment and start actually "saving" money.

shootniron · July 16, 2015, 12:46 PM

leadcounsel and I will include Jim243 in this..

How often do most reloader's take off from work to reload?

How often is reloading equipment sold after years of use and when it is no longer needed...and lots of times it is sold for what it cost new, all those years ago.

Most reloader's do it in leisure time, when, if not reloading they would being doing something else...that is less productive...like writing an epistle on a gun forum, that proves nothing.

And, the cost of reloading equipment is miniscule when purchased and handled properly as the VAST majority of equipment cost can be recaptured.

It is pretty clear that neither of you have a very good grasp of getting the most for your money...kind of like our government. This ain't rocket science, but y'all are doing your best to make it so and worse, you are dragging folks with no experience and a desire to do this, along with you.

The fact remains...if you are going to shoot a lot (especially bigbore revolvers)...reloading SAVES money, over buying factory ammo.

skizzums · July 16, 2015, 01:11 PM

yeah, i don't factor in TIME with cost. i don't make money in my evenings off work, so my time is free. if i worked from home r could bill hours whenever i felt like working, that'd be different. but i work scheduled hours with scheduled days off and don't work a econd job, my reloading has no affect to my ability to make money. i guess it depends on how you make money, or more importantly if reloading interferes with your work.

Doyle · July 16, 2015, 03:37 PM

Quote:

How often do most reloader's take off from work to reload?

As many as can get away with it when the boss isn't watching.

leadcounsel · July 16, 2015, 04:27 PM

It's the difference between HOBBY and SAVING MONEY.

Reloaders are always saying to reload to 'save money' but for anyone with decent earning potential, that's not the case.

Quote:

How often do most reloader's take off from work to reload?

One might not take time off their day job, but if a person can moonlight in their career and earn $... doing work on the side, starting their own side business, etc.

For instance, my tailor is a school teacher who used to work as a Nordstrom tailor. She moonlights on nights, weekends, and summer as a tailor from her home. And they buy up storage lockers and sell the stuff on Craigslist. She makes a KILLING in cash. WAAAYYYY more than a reloader could 'earn' sitting at a reloading press making .30-06 ammo (which has no financial value to anyone else if that person were forced to try to liquidate his ammo).

Shootest · July 16, 2015, 05:13 PM

It will cost more money to buy 100 rounds of any ammo than to reload it. That equals saving money. The amount may be so small that it is not profitable but you are still saving money. What I chose to do with that money, load more ammo or keep it in my wallet is up to me. The equipment used can frequently be resold at close to the cost of new. Thus the price paid can’t be calculated as a total loss. The value of the ammo loaded to anyone else is irrelevant since I am not interested is saving money for them. Figuring in the square footage used is silly because you would be paying for it even if you didn’t reload. Just like clipping coupons saves money at the grocery store, sometimes not a lot but it would cost more if you didn’t do it. We are not talking about making money just saving it. There is a big difference in the two.

leadcounsel · July 16, 2015, 08:17 PM

Quote:

It will cost more money to buy 100 rounds of any ammo than to reload it. That equals saving money. The amount may be so small that it is not profitable but you are still saving money. What I chose to do with that money, load more ammo or keep it in my wallet is up to me. The equipment used can frequently be resold at close to the cost of new. Thus the price paid can’t be calculated as a total loss. The value of the ammo loaded to anyone else is irrelevant since I am not interested is saving money for them. Figuring in the square footage used is silly because you would be paying for it even if you didn’t reload. Just like clipping coupons saves money at the grocery store, sometimes not a lot but it would cost more if you didn’t do it. We are not talking about making money just saving it. There is a big difference in the two.

Sorry, this would be a failing grade in an economics course.

The thread is about COST BENEFITS of reloading. Not do I enjoy the hobby.

When you rent an apartment, or buy a home, you are paying X $ per square footage. The more things you fill the home with, the larger home you need, hence the more square footage and the larger the expense. Space costs money, plain and simple. More activities require more space.

Most reloaders I know have a designated, permanent room with a desk, cabinets, storage lockers, etc taking up on average 100 square feet or 10x10 give or take, so they can reload in private without being distracted or involving setup and teardown time. If you're paying $15 per square foot on your 10x10 reloading room, that's $150 per month in costs. In theory you could rent the room out to a tenant, use it for storage instead of a storage locker, or rent a smaller apartment instead and eliminate that 10x10 room. So, it's definitely a 'cost.' Otherwise known as an "opportunity cost."

Clipping coupons for an employed person is also not very economical unless you have no skills and are on minimum wage jobs. One might spend money to buy the paper, and spend an hour clipping $10 in coupons, and then spend additional time organizing them, carrying them around, applying them at the store hunting for the right item, checking to ensure coupons are not expired, blah blah blah. Maybe save $10 on the grocery bill, but spend 2 extra hours of time from clipping them to applying them to the final bill... for most people it's a waste of time/effort. If it takes 2 hours to safe $10, that's earning $5 per hour and a waste of time.

I'll pass on reiterating all of my other points... go back up to my earlier posts...

jetinteriorguy · July 16, 2015, 08:29 PM

The comparison between resale value of reloaded ammo vs factory can be mitigated by not loading up all your components, just load as you shoot. This way components are easily resold at pretty much full value. But then what fun is that. Personally I prefer sitting at my loading bench to watching the crap on TV or haunting gun forums on the Internet to get in endless silly arguments.

Shootest · July 16, 2015, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Sorry, this would be a failing grade in an economics course.

Sorry, but we are not in an economics course, we are in the real world and the coupon clipper still has that $10 bill and he can put it in the bank. It make no difference if I, or you, think it was worth it or not.

shootniron · July 16, 2015, 09:03 PM

Shootest...you are wasting your time.

He has a need to feel like he knows more than everyone and he has a need to try to prove that conventional wisdom is wrong.

But, it is very obvious that he has no experience with the subject that he seeks to be extolled for enlightening the uninformed, about.

Just another KEYBOARD COMMANDO...like all gun forums are repleat with.

cwall64 · July 16, 2015, 09:28 PM

I assume he also forgot that storing that pallet of ammo he bought to get the discount takes up rentable space...

**44 AMP** · July 16, 2015, 09:54 PM

Quote:

One might not take time off their day job, but if a person can moonlight in their career and earn $... doing work on the side, starting their own side business, etc.

For me, the cost of reloading is what I spend. The benefit is that I get ammunition, crafted to my standards.

And MY standards are all that matters to me. The money I spend on floor space, and the time I spend making ammunition, not money, are not relevant, to me.

One reason for this is that the floor space, and my time, (and other things) would be spent on something else if I did not reload. Since I would be spending that money, or potential to make money anyway, I am losing nothing reloading.

Get a second job, spend your "free time" making money, enjoy your life. But don't bother telling me how bad off I am because I don't.

OK, I didn't spend years of my life getting a degree, so I won't pretend to understand why I'm losing money making something for less than it costs me to buy it. Just as I didn't understand the physics problem a co worker was working on one night. I found it interesting, but just couldn't accept what they said was the "right" answer.

Guy gets in a pool, swims down to the end, then swims back and gets out right were he got in. That part, I got. How far did he travel? That part, I thought I got. But their "correct" answer was he didn't go anywhere.
That part I never got.

Am I losing money having dinner with my wife? Or tucking in a granddaughter? Watching a movie, or being on TFL??

Looked at one way, I suppose I am. So?

I learned something a while back, something that too many people don't seem to get. We get more money. Daily, weekly, bi weekly, monthly etc, however your situation is, every so often a check comes in.

WE DON"T GET MORE TIME.

Everyone of us has an expiration date, and its somewhere none of us can read it from a distance. I don't consider the time I spend reloading wasted, or a financial loss, but then, I'm not in the business of making ammunition.

skizzums · July 16, 2015, 10:01 PM

i have 3 rooms in my house that i haven't walked into in probably three weeks. i did not buy my house with the intent of having extra space for reloading. i am too old to ever have a roomate again. if i had nothing in my empty finished basement, then it would be a waste of money, luckily i have gun crap and exercise equipment to fill it with. i spent no more money on space that i wouldn't have if i didn't reload. even so, whats the rentable space of a large storage cabinet and a small gun safe anyways....maybe in japan

leadcounsel · July 16, 2015, 10:27 PM

I applaud anyone that reloads. This isn't a PERSONAL attack or judgement or directive on how to spend your time.

It's a pure, unemotional economic analysis.

So if you remove the emotion and just purely look at it from economics, it's a different conclusion.

Walmart charges $50 to change my oil. The oil costs about $30, the filter $5. I *can* change my own and save $15. However, that takes an hour and I get filthy and then also have to dispose of the used oil, rags, filter, do cleanup, shower, etc. Alternatively, I can take it in, do my grocery shopping while someone else does it. The hour I save is way more valuable than the $15 I saved doing it myself...

Same analysis.

skizzums · July 16, 2015, 10:35 PM

you get way to messy changing your oil.....clothes, rags? what are you doing under there?

reagrdless, the time i spend reloading is usually just time lost of sleep. i haven't figured out how to capitalize on my sleep yet.

Lost Sheep · July 16, 2015, 11:57 PM

Some people enjoy shooting. Some people enjoy reloading. Some people enjoy running the numbers on cost analysis. Some people enjoy gardening. Some people enjoy more than one of these activities.

Don't knock how I get my pleasures, please. If I choose to make a hobby out of counting costs as well as making a hobby out of reloading and making a hobby of shooting, that is what I do and I do not expect to catch grief over it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=663065

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7760989

The fish I catch might cost more than the fish I buy;
The veggies I grow might cost more than the those I buy;
The ammunition I shoot might cost more than retail;
Why do I fish, garden and handload?
If you have to ask why, you probably won't understand; these activities enrich my life.

Why do I calculate the cost of my ammunition, fish and zuccini, even including the dollar value of my time? If you have to ask why, you probably won't understand. Running the numbers satisfies my curiosity. Strange as it may seem knowing those numbers pleases me.

Lost Sheep

NINEX19 · July 17, 2015, 12:03 AM

OK, now this thread has become kinda silly. There are many personal facets to everyone situations that will determine savings vs cost. If dollars are your bottom line (there is more to life than that you know), than I would think reloading is not for you.

wiiawiwb · July 17, 2015, 07:13 AM

You shouldn't factor in the value of time unless you think of reloading as work. Do you factor in time when you go see a movie? Of course not.

The cost of space is rarely a factor as most people have a sunk cost in their home. The basement/garage already has space so all one is doing is optimizing the original cost. It's rare when someone buys a home and pays extra for dedicated space. If that happens, then it would have to be factored in. However, there is a residual value upon sale which would have to be included as well.

Finally, there is a residual value for the reloading equipment. I've never reloaded and am looking to buy equipment. In my analysis, the breakeven for reloading 45 Colt is ~1,700 rounds. After that point, it's all in the plus column and if I ever stop reloading, the equipment could probably be sold for 50% of the original cost.

I can't see how it doesn't put coin in one's pocket.

45_auto · July 17, 2015, 07:31 AM

I'm speaking as an individual with multiple college level courses in economics which comprised a portion of my honors degree Bachelor of Science in Aerospace Engineering, an MS in Mechanical Engineering, a private entrepreneur, and an MBA (4.0 GPA). Using your analysis methodology, I can show that it would be far cheaper to eat out every night at an expensive restaurant rather than cooking your own meals at home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leadcounsel

If this is to SAVE MONEY, you must factor in the value of:
-Cost of time - economic term is "opportunity costs." This is not just as you sit at the press. Factor in time setup, building bench, researching loads, ordering components online, measuring, weighting, testing loads, etc.
-Cost of floor space - your presumably rent or pay mortgage on square footage of your home. That is a factor X/sq. ft.
-Cost of startup equipment, which you can depreciate or amortize out over X years.

Cooking a meal:

-Cost of time - using your figure off $30/hour, it'll cost most people at least $30 of their time to prepare, then clean up from a meal.
-Cost of floor space - most modern kitchens are a substantial fraction of the floor space of the home. That is a factor X/sq.ft.
-Cost of startup equipment - fridge, stove, microwave, dishwasher, cabinets, counters, sinks, china, furniture, etc.. Even depreciating it over the max allowable time span it would still cost you thousands of dollars per year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leadcounsel

Let's say you can make a sustainable average 100 rounds an hour for 10 cents per 9mm round. It would take you 1000 hours + $10,000 in materials to make 100,000 rounds (100 rds/hr x 1000 hours = 100,000 rounds). 1,000 hours of foregone work @ $30/hr is $30,000 + $10,000 in raw materials + $1000 for the setup. Total economic cost of this 100,000 rounds is $41,000. The hand loaded ammo also has no economic value to anyone but you, so nearly zero resale value (there is a thread on one of these reloading sites about a reloader that died and the family could barely give away piles of his ammo due to the dangers and hassles of pulling the bullets or shooting it).

Let's say you can make a sustainable average 1 meal an hour for $20 per meal. It would take you 1000 hours + $20,000 in materials to make 1,000 meals (1 meal/hr x 1000 hours = 1,000 meals). 1,000 hours of foregone work @ $30/hr is $30,000 + $20,000 in raw materials + $10,000 (cheap kitchen!) for the setup. Total economic cost of this 1,000 meals is $60,000. The hand made meal also has no economic value to anyone but you, so nearly zero resale value (I'm sure there is a thread somewhere where someone died from food poisoning). And this doesn't factor the learning curve, floor storage space/cost, inconvenience, and risks of rolling your own.

Your total cost is $30,000 + $20,000 + $10,000 = $60,000 for the 1,000 hand made meals.

Shoot, let's say somebody GIVES you the food so groceries cost you nothing. Those 1,000 meals STILL cost you $30,000 + $10,000 = $40,000 for 1,000 meals.

Conversely, let's say you buy 1,000 restaurant meals for $50,000, or $50 per meal. And you work those 1000 hours at a profession or side-job, earning $30,000. Total cost is $30,000 earned minus $50,000 spent on meals.

Your total cost is $30,000 - $50,000 = $20,000 for the 1,000 restaurant meals.

Therefore, if you eat a $50 meal at a local restaurant each night rather than cooking at home you will save approximately $40,000/(1,000/365) = $14,600 per year.

Even if you get FREE food, it's still twice as expensive ($40,000 vs $20,000) for you to eat at home as it is to pay $50 per meal at a restaurant! Cooking free food at home instead of paying $50 for a dinner every night in a local restaurant will cost you $7,300 per year!

From a purist economic standpoint, if you're gainfully employed and could otherwise be working, you may never reach an economic "break even" point. If fact, you could actually lose money for each meal you make versus just buying meals at restaurants and working at your job instead.

Note that from a purist economic standpoint, if you're gainfully employed and could otherwise be working, you may never reach an economic "break even" point on anything! Anytime you're not working (cooking, eating, sleeping, playing with your kids, reading, watching TV, buying ammo, shooting, etc) you're losing money.

Heck, I like your analysis! I can eat a fancy restaurant meal every night, spend over $1,000 per month on ammo, and STILL be saving money!

NINEX19 · July 17, 2015, 08:19 AM

45_Auto
Exactly. You can apply that thought process to anything and make the numbers work out to fit a bias or hide truth. Numbers don't lie, but you can do enough tricks to make them say whatever you want. The government does it all the time.

sorefoot · July 17, 2015, 08:21 AM

I've started reloading for the sole purpose of building light loads for my daughters first hunting rifle so she can practice shooting it. I wanted something that isn't readily, affordable, and commercially available.

I've come to enjoy reloading as a hobby and am starting to work on loading my hunting rifles for accuracy. I don't consider the $/unit cost because it's a hobby I enjoy that I don't mind spending some money on.

BigJimP · July 17, 2015, 11:36 AM

Many of us would reload ...even if the cost savings was a push.../ to many of us, its part of the gun hobby.

I'm semi-retired../ even if you assume my "employed time" is worth $50 an hour ...my personal time is most valuable when I'm doing something I like - not a chore....and reloading is something I like to do...

Many of us, or at least I do, use a progressive press that loads about 1,000 rds an hour without breaking a sweat...so your amortization calculations are off a little...

Reloading is also about customizing my ammo...faster, slower, less recoil or whatever I want it to do in my handguns...for my use, my adult kids or my grandkids.......and its also about passing this skill and hobby down to the boys and the grandkids in the family...( that's worth a lot to me too )...including the time spent with them in my shop reloading ( because its a "cell phone free zone"...and the sign, is proudly displayed as they enter the shop ) - they think its funny, but they respect the concentration it takes....to work in the shop ( reloading, woodworking, etc ).../ and getting disconnected is not a bad thing once in a while..for the kids or for me...

But bottom line is so what - its a hobby not a chore / changing my SUV's oil is a chore ( so I'm happy to let the dealer do it for $ 100 or whatever it costs...)...

Yet there is some value added by reloading as well ...as I get toward my late 60's and on a fixed income in my life...with the same ammo budget, I can shoot 2 to 3 times more with the same ammo budget.../ while I can afford to spend $10,000 a yr on ammo ...I wouldn't ..../ but I'm happy to spend $ 3,000 - $4,000 on components a year...and shoot as if I spent the $ 10K.

overthere · July 17, 2015, 12:10 PM

Gosh, if I had a dollar every time someone said 'you have to take the time it takes to reload into the equation as a cost'...

In real life, most people spend several hours per day doing things that earns them no income. This time might be spent watching TV, playing video games, reading, playing golf, sleeping, eating, cooking, watching YouTube, playing with the kids etc. etc.

This is just how it is.

Then, just because someone decides to handload ammunition there is a group of people who feel compelled to insist that when leisure time is spent on this particular activity, there is somehow an opportunity cost that needs to be considered... Humbug!

My leisure time costs me no more just because it is spent handloading.

July 16, 2015, 01:18 AM	#76
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	I'm speaking as an individual with multiple college level courses in economics which comprised a portion of my honors degree Bachelor of Arts, a Juris Doctor, a private entrepreneur, while I'm carrying nearly a 4.0 grade point average and 1/2 through my Masters of Business Administration degree, with "A's" in Accounting and Economics courses at graduate level: If it's a hobby, then the cost is mostly irrelevant if you enjoy it and can afford it. All hobbies are costly - skiing, camping, skydiving, etc. My snowboarding hobby is expensive and offers zero return. It's not for economics, it's fun. If this is to SAVE MONEY, you must factor in the value of: -Cost of time - economic term is "opportunity costs." This is not just as you sit at the press. Factor in time setup, building bench, researching loads, ordering components online, measuring, weighting, testing loads, etc. -Cost of floor space - your presumably rent or pay mortgage on square footage of your home. That is a factor X/sq. ft. -Cost of startup equipment, which you can depreciate or amortize out over X years. Reloaders conveniently forget the hundreds of dollars spent on all the equipment, the many square feet of floor space (each square foot in your home represents somewhere around $XXX/ft that you pay rent or mortgage on - so if reloading requires you to upscale the size of your home to accommodate reloading, for increased costs, you must factor that in), storage space, the cash outlay for all components, the constant hunt for brass, lead, primers, and powder, the hazards of having that stuff around... (a recent article in one of these reloading forums about a guy who had a massive amount of gunpowder and it ignited and blew up his house) and the hours of sitting in front of what is effectively a little press in your home - like a little Chinese sweat shop... And just peruse the reloader section. I see frequent posts about serious mistakes that reloaders make resulting in blowing up their guns or causing injuries. And by the way, nobody will shoot or buy your reloaded ammo - that's how much reloaded ammo is trusted. So you could make 100,000 reloads that are worthless to anyone but you. Conversely, in a pinch you could recoup your investment in a purchase of 100,000 factory rounds if you needed to. Let's reasonably assume you can earn $30 an hour at your profession. Let's also assume that the outlay for a good reloading setup, dies, accessories, workbench, etc. is $1000. (A Dillon Square Deal is $400, and advertises 300-500 rounds per hour, but does not factor in the "down time" for measuring, weighing, testing, pulling mistakes, shopping for components, setup, tear down, which cut deep into that hourly rate). Let's say you can make a sustainable average 100 rounds an hour for 10 cents per 9mm round. It would take you 1000 hours + $10,000 in materials to make 100,000 rounds (100 rds/hr x 1000 hours = 100,000 rounds). 1,000 hours of foregone work @ $30/hr is $30,000 + $10,000 in raw materials + $1000 for the setup. Total economic cost of this 100,000 rounds is $41,000. The hand loaded ammo also has no economic value to anyone but you, so nearly zero resale value (there is a thread on one of these reloading sites about a reloader that died and the family could barely give away piles of his ammo due to the dangers and hassles of pulling the bullets or shooting it). And this doesn't factor the learning curve, floor storage space/cost, inconvenience, and risks of rolling your own. Note you lose money with each bullet using this very reasonable example. Even if you increased production and cut the time to 300 rounds per hour, that brings the labor to $10,000 + $10,000 materials + $1,000 for the setup = $21,000. Conversely, let's say you buy 100,000 factory rounds at 20 cents per round, for $20,000 with the click of a button. http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Feder...-p/cal9115.htm Right here is 115 grain Federal 9x19 for $19 cents per round. It took me 10 seconds to find it. You could probably get a better price if you bought a pallet of it. And you work those 1000 hours at a profession or side-job, earning $30,000. Total cost is $30,000 earned minus $20,000 spent on ammo, so you come out AHEAD $10,000 cash PLUS the factory ammo will retain 100% of it's value and probably increase over time. The analysis may be different for exotic or particularly expensive ammo, or ammo that needs special tweaking, or the opportunity costs of a person's earning potential... In my mind, it's clear that for most people, buying factory is the way to go unless you just absolutely love reloading as a hobby or are otherwise on a fixed income or unemployed - which is a different analysis. From a purist economic standpoint, if you're gainfully employed and could otherwise be working, you may never reach an economic "break even" point. If fact, you could actually lose money for each bullet you make versus just buying a pallet of ammo and working at your job instead. Last edited by leadcounsel; July 16, 2015 at 08:37 PM.*

July 16, 2015, 02:10 AM	#77
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	^^^^^^ here, here. Well I am glad to see someone's MBA was worth it. After 47 years in Finance and Accounting, I am glad to see someone that understands it. Stay safe and be well. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

July 16, 2015, 12:46 PM	#79
shootniron Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,599	leadcounsel and I will include Jim243 in this.. How often do most reloader's take off from work to reload? How often is reloading equipment sold after years of use and when it is no longer needed...and lots of times it is sold for what it cost new, all those years ago. Most reloader's do it in leisure time, when, if not reloading they would being doing something else...that is less productive...like writing an epistle on a gun forum, that proves nothing. And, the cost of reloading equipment is miniscule when purchased and handled properly as the VAST majority of equipment cost can be recaptured. It is pretty clear that neither of you have a very good grasp of getting the most for your money...kind of like our government. This ain't rocket science, but y'all are doing your best to make it so and worse, you are dragging folks with no experience and a desire to do this, along with you. The fact remains...if you are going to shoot a lot (especially bigbore revolvers)...reloading SAVES money, over buying factory ammo. Last edited by shootniron; July 16, 2015 at 01:35 PM.

July 16, 2015, 01:11 PM	#80
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	yeah, i don't factor in TIME with cost. i don't make money in my evenings off work, so my time is free. if i worked from home r could bill hours whenever i felt like working, that'd be different. but i work scheduled hours with scheduled days off and don't work a econd job, my reloading has no affect to my ability to make money. i guess it depends on how you make money, or more importantly if reloading interferes with your work. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

July 16, 2015, 05:13 PM	#83
Shootest Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2011 Location: Just outside Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 722	It will cost more money to buy 100 rounds of any ammo than to reload it. That equals saving money. The amount may be so small that it is not profitable but you are still saving money. What I chose to do with that money, load more ammo or keep it in my wallet is up to me. The equipment used can frequently be resold at close to the cost of new. Thus the price paid can’t be calculated as a total loss. The value of the ammo loaded to anyone else is irrelevant since I am not interested is saving money for them. Figuring in the square footage used is silly because you would be paying for it even if you didn’t reload. Just like clipping coupons saves money at the grocery store, sometimes not a lot but it would cost more if you didn’t do it. We are not talking about making money just saving it. There is a big difference in the two. __________________ The private ownership of firearms is an American Heritage. Anyone who disputes that is Anti-American and unpatriotic. NRA Life Member

July 16, 2015, 08:29 PM	#85
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,191	The comparison between resale value of reloaded ammo vs factory can be mitigated by not loading up all your components, just load as you shoot. This way components are easily resold at pretty much full value. But then what fun is that. Personally I prefer sitting at my loading bench to watching the crap on TV or haunting gun forums on the Internet to get in endless silly arguments.

July 16, 2015, 09:03 PM	#87
shootniron Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,599	Shootest...you are wasting your time. He has a need to feel like he knows more than everyone and he has a need to try to prove that conventional wisdom is wrong. But, it is very obvious that he has no experience with the subject that he seeks to be extolled for enlightening the uninformed, about. Just another KEYBOARD COMMANDO...like all gun forums are repleat with. Last edited by shootniron; July 16, 2015 at 10:29 PM.

July 16, 2015, 09:28 PM	#88
cwall64 Member Join Date: March 18, 2015 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 63	I assume he also forgot that storing that pallet of ammo he bought to get the discount takes up rentable space... __________________ NRA Endowment Member

July 16, 2015, 10:01 PM	#90
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	i have 3 rooms in my house that i haven't walked into in probably three weeks. i did not buy my house with the intent of having extra space for reloading. i am too old to ever have a roomate again. if i had nothing in my empty finished basement, then it would be a waste of money, luckily i have gun crap and exercise equipment to fill it with. i spent no more money on space that i wouldn't have if i didn't reload. even so, whats the rentable space of a large storage cabinet and a small gun safe anyways....maybe in japan __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

July 16, 2015, 10:27 PM	#91
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	I applaud anyone that reloads. This isn't a PERSONAL attack or judgement or directive on how to spend your time. It's a pure, unemotional economic analysis. So if you remove the emotion and just purely look at it from economics, it's a different conclusion. Walmart charges $50 to change my oil. The oil costs about $30, the filter $5. I can change my own and save $15. However, that takes an hour and I get filthy and then also have to dispose of the used oil, rags, filter, do cleanup, shower, etc. Alternatively, I can take it in, do my grocery shopping while someone else does it. The hour I save is way more valuable than the $15 I saved doing it myself... Same analysis.

July 16, 2015, 10:35 PM	#92
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	you get way to messy changing your oil.....clothes, rags? what are you doing under there? reagrdless, the time i spend reloading is usually just time lost of sleep. i haven't figured out how to capitalize on my sleep yet. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

July 16, 2015, 11:57 PM	#93
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	All those who object to the economics analysis Some people enjoy shooting. Some people enjoy reloading. Some people enjoy running the numbers on cost analysis. Some people enjoy gardening. Some people enjoy more than one of these activities. Don't knock how I get my pleasures, please. If I choose to make a hobby out of counting costs as well as making a hobby out of reloading and making a hobby of shooting, that is what I do and I do not expect to catch grief over it. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=663065 http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7760989 The fish I catch might cost more than the fish I buy; The veggies I grow might cost more than the those I buy; The ammunition I shoot might cost more than retail; Why do I fish, garden and handload? If you have to ask why, you probably won't understand; these activities enrich my life. Why do I calculate the cost of my ammunition, fish and zuccini, even including the dollar value of my time? If you have to ask why, you probably won't understand. Running the numbers satisfies my curiosity. Strange as it may seem knowing those numbers pleases me. Lost Sheep

July 17, 2015, 12:03 AM	#94
NINEX19 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 470	OK, now this thread has become kinda silly. There are many personal facets to everyone situations that will determine savings vs cost. If dollars are your bottom line (there is more to life than that you know), than I would think reloading is not for you.

July 17, 2015, 07:13 AM	#95
wiiawiwb Member Join Date: February 20, 2012 Posts: 52	You shouldn't factor in the value of time unless you think of reloading as work. Do you factor in time when you go see a movie? Of course not. The cost of space is rarely a factor as most people have a sunk cost in their home. The basement/garage already has space so all one is doing is optimizing the original cost. It's rare when someone buys a home and pays extra for dedicated space. If that happens, then it would have to be factored in. However, there is a residual value upon sale which would have to be included as well. Finally, there is a residual value for the reloading equipment. I've never reloaded and am looking to buy equipment. In my analysis, the breakeven for reloading 45 Colt is ~1,700 rounds. After that point, it's all in the plus column and if I ever stop reloading, the equipment could probably be sold for 50% of the original cost. I can't see how it doesn't put coin in one's pocket.

July 17, 2015, 08:19 AM	#97
NINEX19 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 470	45_Auto Exactly. You can apply that thought process to anything and make the numbers work out to fit a bias or hide truth. Numbers don't lie, but you can do enough tricks to make them say whatever you want. The government does it all the time.

July 17, 2015, 08:21 AM	#98
sorefoot Member Join Date: June 30, 2015 Posts: 22	I've started reloading for the sole purpose of building light loads for my daughters first hunting rifle so she can practice shooting it. I wanted something that isn't readily, affordable, and commercially available. I've come to enjoy reloading as a hobby and am starting to work on loading my hunting rifles for accuracy. I don't consider the $/unit cost because it's a hobby I enjoy that I don't mind spending some money on.

July 17, 2015, 11:36 AM	#99
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Many of us would reload ...even if the cost savings was a push.../ to many of us, its part of the gun hobby. I'm semi-retired../ even if you assume my "employed time" is worth $50 an hour ...my personal time is most valuable when I'm doing something I like - not a chore....and reloading is something I like to do... Many of us, or at least I do, use a progressive press that loads about 1,000 rds an hour without breaking a sweat...so your amortization calculations are off a little... Reloading is also about customizing my ammo...faster, slower, less recoil or whatever I want it to do in my handguns...for my use, my adult kids or my grandkids.......and its also about passing this skill and hobby down to the boys and the grandkids in the family...( that's worth a lot to me too )...including the time spent with them in my shop reloading ( because its a "cell phone free zone"...and the sign, is proudly displayed as they enter the shop ) - they think its funny, but they respect the concentration it takes....to work in the shop ( reloading, woodworking, etc ).../ and getting disconnected is not a bad thing once in a while..for the kids or for me... But bottom line is so what - its a hobby not a chore / changing my SUV's oil is a chore ( so I'm happy to let the dealer do it for $ 100 or whatever it costs...)... Yet there is some value added by reloading as well ...as I get toward my late 60's and on a fixed income in my life...with the same ammo budget, I can shoot 2 to 3 times more with the same ammo budget.../ while I can afford to spend $10,000 a yr on ammo ...I wouldn't ..../ but I'm happy to spend $ 3,000 - $4,000 on components a year...and shoot as if I spent the $ 10K.

July 17, 2015, 12:10 PM	#100
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	Gosh, if I had a dollar every time someone said 'you have to take the time it takes to reload into the equation as a cost'... In real life, most people spend several hours per day doing things that earns them no income. This time might be spent watching TV, playing video games, reading, playing golf, sleeping, eating, cooking, watching YouTube, playing with the kids etc. etc. This is just how it is. Then, just because someone decides to handload ammunition there is a group of people who feel compelled to insist that when leisure time is spent on this particular activity, there is somehow an opportunity cost that needs to be considered... Humbug! My leisure time costs me no more just because it is spent handloading.