38 Special +P+

PolarFBear · March 21, 2020, 05:28 PM

Looking to load a few (100) 38 Special +P+. I will be using a 125 gr Hornady 125 grain XTP. The Hornady manual has no suggestions for +P+. It does list a +P warning at the maximum loading. I have HP38/W231 and Unique on hand for powder. Rounds will be dedicated to my .357 revolvers ONLY; S&W, 640, 686, GP100 and Blackhawk. Suggestions on which powder and charge? I did look at .357 but don't want to use my brass. I guess an aid would be to know what fps velocity a 38 +P+ runs. I have no idea.

USSR · March 21, 2020, 06:07 PM

As far as I know, there is no SAAMI spec's for .38+P+, so you are pretty much going into uncharted territory. I believe the cartridges that were loaded and marked +P+ used a 110gr bullet. One thing I can tell you for sure, with the powders you listed as having, you will likely reach high pressure levels without high velocity.

Don

buck460XVR · March 21, 2020, 06:17 PM

A .38 special +p+ is probably in the neighborhood of .357 mag. You're shooting it out of .357 platforms, so why not just a moderate .357 mag, 125gr load?

gwpercle · March 21, 2020, 07:37 PM

38 special +P+ = 357 magnum starting loads

38 +P w/ 125 grain XTP run about 1000 fps

357 Magnum starting loads w/ 125 gr. XTP run about 1250 fps .

The velocity you would be looking for would be 1050 fps to 1200 fps .

This would be a Super High Velocity 38 special load or a low velocity 357 magnum load .
I hesitate to use the term 38 special +P+ but only load them in 357 brass and use the data in the Hornady manual .
Gary

joneb · March 21, 2020, 11:02 PM

I have a S&W 10-5 that I will sometimes shoot 38spl +p I don't care to beat this gun up, so if I want to shoot a hotter load I use a .357 magnum chambered firearm.

rc · March 22, 2020, 02:47 AM

What powder are you going to choose? 38 special likes 231 and similar but that may be too fast to take a chance loading +P+. It's easier to down load 357 mag safely. The problem with loading hot 38 loads is they may become a hazard to others in the future. I have loaded some nice mild +p+ level 38 loads in 357 cases.

Using 231 in 357 mag 7.3 grains with 125 grain bullets is supposed to produce 1335fps.

Using 231 in 38 special 5.3 grains with 125 grain bullets is supposed to produce 1018fps.

So I won't suggest a load but that's your range. How strong is your gun and how much risk would you like to take?

PolarFBear · March 22, 2020, 09:54 AM

Thanks for all the input. You've convinced me to just load .357s instead. They will be full powers. No need "wasting" the XTPs on "fluff" loads. But, will have to wait for a suitable powder. The Hornady manual doesn't list a suitable load for HP38/W231 or Unique. Back to 38 Specials and my own cast loads.

zeke · March 22, 2020, 11:14 AM

smart choice and Unique in 357 mag brass should be able to get what some might consider 125 grain 38 special +p+ loads from 357 mag revolver. If available, Rem 38 special gs's might be considered.

David R · March 22, 2020, 11:15 AM

Lyman # 50 shows a Hornady 125 JHP
UNIQUE
Starting load 7.0 Unique 990 fps
MAX load 9.7 1359 fps 41,600 C. U. P.

Please only use 357 brass. I blew up a Bulldog with 44 specials loaded for an N Frame Smith and Wesson.

David

Nick_C_S · March 22, 2020, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Thanks for all the input. You've convinced me to just load .357s instead. They will be full powers.

Good decision.

For whatever it's worth, Unique really shines pushing 125's in 357 Magnum. No, they won't produce maximum velocity, but they'll sure do plenty good, especially when flying out of that J-frame 640 where handling and control could be a real issue.

I load 125 XTP's for 357 Mag using 9.2 grains of Unique. It is nowhere near max (The Hornady manual does show any Unique data; but Speer maxes out at 9.6 grains) but they perform quite well. (I worked up to 9.6, but settled on 9.2)

Shooting from a S&W 686 3" bbl, I get 1312 f/s and that's plenty for expansion and stopping at threat. They really don't need to go faster than that.

Others will recommend slower propellants and I won't. 125/Unique is a good combo.

**Unclenick** · March 22, 2020, 04:40 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

PolarBear,

Yes. Good decision.

Nobody can tell you what a +P+ pressure is because it doesn't have an assigned one. The designation is broadly used by manufacturers to indicate ammunition not loaded to SAAMI standards. That can mean higher pressure, but it doesn't have to. SAAMI, for example, has velocity standards for each bullet weight. Someone on another board with a Pressure Trace measured a manufacturer's +P and their +P+ loads in a carbine and found the +P+ actually produced lower peak pressure than the +P load, but it's velocity was higher and outside the +P SAAMI velocity range for the bullet weight. It was probably a load worked up with slower-than-normal-for-38 Special powder and a magnum primer and an extra hard crimp to get the powder burning.

Otherwise, if you wanted to make a guess at what manufacturers might use by way of a pressure limit, I think you can look at the .38 Special proof loads. They won't want to get to that range as a steady diet of proof loads can wear out a gun, stretch a frame or cause other grief if the gun isn't built heavily enough or with hard enough steel. The original proof loads for .38 Special are now obsolete and +P proof levels are currently used for both .38 Special and .38 Special +P. The minimum proof pressure for .38 Special and .38 Special +P is 27,000 psi. I think anybody manufacturing .38 Special who exceeded that pressure number would be asking for legal trouble. If I were in charge of an ammo plant, I wouldn't let the +P+ loads exceed +P by any more than +P exceeds the standard maximum pressure, and that difference is 3,000 psi. In other words, 23,000 psi would be my in-house limit. It also just happens to be the lower proof limit for the now-obsolete .38 Special standard. But I don't run an ammo plant, so I can't say for sure what some manufacturers may actually do in some instances.

PolarFBear · March 22, 2020, 04:54 PM

Thanks again for all the replies. The cases I WAS going to use were Federal, head stamped FC, +P+. Don't know where I came across them. I have about 300 and about 700 Speer Lawman +Ps. Not much in .357. Hence, the thought of loading the higher pressure 38's. I did have an issue with a double charge of W231 in the S&W 640. I can trace it back to loading on a Dillon and getting distracted. Thought I was using "fluff" rounds for plinking. Bang, bang, bang KA-BOOOM. Cylinder was locked UP. Had to pound out the brass. Couldn't really see anything amiss. But, off to S&W factory for a new cylinder. ~$200 later- all is well. Glad it was the S&W 640 and not my petite Rossi.

Carriertxv · March 22, 2020, 04:56 PM

Check Hodgdon as HS-6 will get you up close to where you want to be but only a plus P load. Only 38 special I have is a 14-3 with 8 barrel but no way I’ll shoot those out of it. I have out of a 686 and they are pretty snappy.

Radny97 · March 23, 2020, 11:08 AM

HS-6 is what you want. Check out Speer manual #8

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

USSR · March 23, 2020, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Check out Speer manual #8

Uh, I wouldn't load anything out of that manual without cross-checking it with other manuals.

Don

zeke · March 23, 2020, 03:09 PM

Speer #8 = bad advise for 38 special anything that can't be backed up by a modern manual based on actual pressure testing.

603Country · March 23, 2020, 06:03 PM

Don’t throw away the 38 brass. Some years back I decided, as you have, to just switch to 357 brass and warmish loads. I gave away all the 38 brass. Wasn’t long after that when the wife got a 38 and the ranch visitors (mostly friends of the wife) didn’t like the hot 357 loads. And I no longer had any 38 brass, so I had to buy some. Now I’m back to loading both, and a lot of it.

After years of having shooters and newbies visit the ranch, it seems that the favorite load for most folks is the 158 gr hard cast bullet in a 38 case and fired in the 686. It doesn’t intimidate the newer shooters.

Recently had the grandson (law student) bring two of his college buddies to the ranch. The one from Boston had never fired a gun in his life, and here he was in by-God-Texas shooting a revolver (after a detailed safety and gun manners session). He was some happy, and burned a bunch of 38 ammo, and is apparently asking for another trip. Says he’s never going back to live in Boston, and since he’s conservative, we decided to let him stay in Texas.

David R · March 24, 2020, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeke

Speer #8 = bad advise for 38 special anything that can't be backed up by a modern manual based on actual pressure testing.

It has some OUTLANDISH 38 special loads.
Use your head. If you are getting 1100 fps out of a 158 gr in 38, you are FAR into magnum territory.

The Lyman #50 tops out at 900, 950 for +P

David

**Unclenick** · March 24, 2020, 03:25 PM

You have to be careful to compare apples to apples. A SAAMI spec vented (to mimic the barrel/cylinder gap in a revolver) pressure and velocity barrel is 4" after the vent gap, while a lot of data is fired for velocity in 6" production revolvers (Speer still does this). Meanwhile, Hodgdon uses SAAMI's option of a 7.7" single-shot pistol barrel (length measured to the breech face, like a rifle, and it has no vent). Hornady uses a 4" S&W m.15 revolver. None of those different guns will produce the same velocity with the same load.

zxcvbob · March 24, 2020, 04:09 PM

What you want is probably ".38-44 High Velocity" load data, sometimes called the Elmer Keith load (I'm not sure those are the same thing) But generally those loads use 2400 powder and heavy cast bullets. That should give you something more specific to search for.

With your bullets and powder, I think you're better off using published .38 Special +P data; start with the max load and work your way back to what shoots the best (instead of starting with the minimum load and working up)

Do not try to hotrod the .38 Special using Blue Dot powder. I speak from experience on that. (blew the heads clean off the cases, which was not catastrophic in a strong revolver but it could have been) 2400 and AA#7 do not seem to get squirrelly at the top end like Blue Dot.

Paul B. · March 25, 2020, 07:05 PM

Dang Bob, I was gonna suggest the same thing. Look for 38/44 S&W data. There was an article in Handloader magazine within the last year and a half with data for the .38/44 Heavy Duty and 38/44 Outdoorsman, both .38 Spl. Revolvers on the .44 "N" frame S&W. The cartridge was the forerunner of the .357 Magnum. I've had two of those Outdoorsman revolvers and I killed a Black Bear with the one I had back in 1959 on the Fourth of July weekend. Two shots and one very dead bear. Going from memory, the powder was H2400 and the bullet the 158 gr. Lyman #359156 gas check type. I remember the bullet because I still have and use that mold in my current 38/44 and .357 Magnum. Note that the early load was with Hercules #2400 and not the current Alliant #2400. based on work with A2400 in my .357 Mag. I get the feeling it it slightly faster burning than the old Hercules version but, That just could be me. I've been running that bullet with 5.0 gr. of Unique in the 38/44 in deference to that older gun which I like very very much.
IIRC, the muzzle velocity of those old 38/44 factory loads was somewhere around 1100 to 1200 FPS with a 15 gr. Bullet. Worked just fine.
Paul B.

SHR970 · March 25, 2020, 07:17 PM

If you insist on going XtraHot use a forgiving powder like HS6/W540, AA#7, or WAP / Ramshot Silhouette.

March 21, 2020, 05:28 PM	#1
PolarFBear Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2015 Location: NE Tennessee, a "Free State" Posts: 478	38 Special +P+ Looking to load a few (100) 38 Special +P+. I will be using a 125 gr Hornady 125 grain XTP. The Hornady manual has no suggestions for +P+. It does list a +P warning at the maximum loading. I have HP38/W231 and Unique on hand for powder. Rounds will be dedicated to my .357 revolvers ONLY; S&W, 640, 686, GP100 and Blackhawk. Suggestions on which powder and charge? I did look at .357 but don't want to use my brass. I guess an aid would be to know what fps velocity a 38 +P+ runs. I have no idea.

March 22, 2020, 04:40 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information. PolarBear, Yes. Good decision. Nobody can tell you what a +P+ pressure is because it doesn't have an assigned one. The designation is broadly used by manufacturers to indicate ammunition not loaded to SAAMI standards. That can mean higher pressure, but it doesn't have to. SAAMI, for example, has velocity standards for each bullet weight. Someone on another board with a Pressure Trace measured a manufacturer's +P and their +P+ loads in a carbine and found the +P+ actually produced lower peak pressure than the +P load, but it's velocity was higher and outside the +P SAAMI velocity range for the bullet weight. It was probably a load worked up with slower-than-normal-for-38 Special powder and a magnum primer and an extra hard crimp to get the powder burning. Otherwise, if you wanted to make a guess at what manufacturers might use by way of a pressure limit, I think you can look at the .38 Special proof loads. They won't want to get to that range as a steady diet of proof loads can wear out a gun, stretch a frame or cause other grief if the gun isn't built heavily enough or with hard enough steel. The original proof loads for .38 Special are now obsolete and +P proof levels are currently used for both .38 Special and .38 Special +P. The minimum proof pressure for .38 Special and .38 Special +P is 27,000 psi. I think anybody manufacturing .38 Special who exceeded that pressure number would be asking for legal trouble. If I were in charge of an ammo plant, I wouldn't let the +P+ loads exceed +P by any more than +P exceeds the standard maximum pressure, and that difference is 3,000 psi. In other words, 23,000 psi would be my in-house limit. It also just happens to be the lower proof limit for the now-obsolete .38 Special standard. But I don't run an ammo plant, so I can't say for sure what some manufacturers may actually do in some instances. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 22, 2020, 04:54 PM	#12
PolarFBear Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2015 Location: NE Tennessee, a "Free State" Posts: 478	Unclenick Thanks again for all the replies. The cases I WAS going to use were Federal, head stamped FC, +P+. Don't know where I came across them. I have about 300 and about 700 Speer Lawman +Ps. Not much in .357. Hence, the thought of loading the higher pressure 38's. I did have an issue with a double charge of W231 in the S&W 640. I can trace it back to loading on a Dillon and getting distracted. Thought I was using "fluff" rounds for plinking. Bang, bang, bang KA-BOOOM. Cylinder was locked UP. Had to pound out the brass. Couldn't really see anything amiss. But, off to S&W factory for a new cylinder. ~$200 later- all is well. Glad it was the S&W 640 and not my petite Rossi.

March 24, 2020, 03:25 PM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	You have to be careful to compare apples to apples. A SAAMI spec vented (to mimic the barrel/cylinder gap in a revolver) pressure and velocity barrel is 4" after the vent gap, while a lot of data is fired for velocity in 6" production revolvers (Speer still does this). Meanwhile, Hodgdon uses SAAMI's option of a 7.7" single-shot pistol barrel (length measured to the breech face, like a rifle, and it has no vent). Hornady uses a 4" S&W m.15 revolver. None of those different guns will produce the same velocity with the same load. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 24, 2020, 04:09 PM	#20
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	What you want is probably ".38-44 High Velocity" load data, sometimes called the Elmer Keith load (I'm not sure those are the same thing) But generally those loads use 2400 powder and heavy cast bullets. That should give you something more specific to search for. With your bullets and powder, I think you're better off using published .38 Special +P data; start with the max load and work your way back to what shoots the best (instead of starting with the minimum load and working up) Do not try to hotrod the .38 Special using Blue Dot powder. I speak from experience on that. (blew the heads clean off the cases, which was not catastrophic in a strong revolver but it could have been) 2400 and AA#7 do not seem to get squirrelly at the top end like Blue Dot. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

March 21, 2020, 06:07 PM	#2
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	As far as I know, there is no SAAMI spec's for .38+P+, so you are pretty much going into uncharted territory. I believe the cartridges that were loaded and marked +P+ used a 110gr bullet. One thing I can tell you for sure, with the powders you listed as having, you will likely reach high pressure levels without high velocity. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

March 21, 2020, 06:17 PM	#3
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	A .38 special +p+ is probably in the neighborhood of .357 mag. You're shooting it out of .357 platforms, so why not just a moderate .357 mag, 125gr load?

March 21, 2020, 07:37 PM	#4
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	38 special +P+ = 357 magnum starting loads 38 +P w/ 125 grain XTP run about 1000 fps 357 Magnum starting loads w/ 125 gr. XTP run about 1250 fps . The velocity you would be looking for would be 1050 fps to 1200 fps . This would be a Super High Velocity 38 special load or a low velocity 357 magnum load . I hesitate to use the term 38 special +P+ but only load them in 357 brass and use the data in the Hornady manual . Gary

March 21, 2020, 11:02 PM	#5
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I have a S&W 10-5 that I will sometimes shoot 38spl +p I don't care to beat this gun up, so if I want to shoot a hotter load I use a .357 magnum chambered firearm.

March 22, 2020, 02:47 AM	#6
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,769	What powder are you going to choose? 38 special likes 231 and similar but that may be too fast to take a chance loading +P+. It's easier to down load 357 mag safely. The problem with loading hot 38 loads is they may become a hazard to others in the future. I have loaded some nice mild +p+ level 38 loads in 357 cases. Using 231 in 357 mag 7.3 grains with 125 grain bullets is supposed to produce 1335fps. Using 231 in 38 special 5.3 grains with 125 grain bullets is supposed to produce 1018fps. So I won't suggest a load but that's your range. How strong is your gun and how much risk would you like to take?

March 22, 2020, 09:54 AM	#7
PolarFBear Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2015 Location: NE Tennessee, a "Free State" Posts: 478	Changed my mind. Magnums for me. Thanks for all the input. You've convinced me to just load .357s instead. They will be full powers. No need "wasting" the XTPs on "fluff" loads. But, will have to wait for a suitable powder. The Hornady manual doesn't list a suitable load for HP38/W231 or Unique. Back to 38 Specials and my own cast loads.

March 22, 2020, 11:14 AM	#8
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	smart choice and Unique in 357 mag brass should be able to get what some might consider 125 grain 38 special +p+ loads from 357 mag revolver. If available, Rem 38 special gs's might be considered.

March 22, 2020, 11:15 AM	#9
David R Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Location: The swamps of WNY Posts: 753	Lyman # 50 shows a Hornady 125 JHP UNIQUE Starting load 7.0 Unique 990 fps MAX load 9.7 1359 fps 41,600 C. U. P. Please only use 357 brass. I blew up a Bulldog with 44 specials loaded for an N Frame Smith and Wesson. David

March 22, 2020, 04:56 PM	#13
Carriertxv Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2013 Posts: 268	Check Hodgdon as HS-6 will get you up close to where you want to be but only a plus P load. Only 38 special I have is a 14-3 with 8 barrel but no way I’ll shoot those out of it. I have out of a 686 and they are pretty snappy.

March 23, 2020, 11:08 AM	#14
Radny97 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2015 Posts: 1,021	HS-6 is what you want. Check out Speer manual #8 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

March 23, 2020, 03:09 PM	#16
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Speer #8 = bad advise for 38 special anything that can't be backed up by a modern manual based on actual pressure testing.

March 23, 2020, 06:03 PM	#17
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Don’t throw away the 38 brass. Some years back I decided, as you have, to just switch to 357 brass and warmish loads. I gave away all the 38 brass. Wasn’t long after that when the wife got a 38 and the ranch visitors (mostly friends of the wife) didn’t like the hot 357 loads. And I no longer had any 38 brass, so I had to buy some. Now I’m back to loading both, and a lot of it. After years of having shooters and newbies visit the ranch, it seems that the favorite load for most folks is the 158 gr hard cast bullet in a 38 case and fired in the 686. It doesn’t intimidate the newer shooters. Recently had the grandson (law student) bring two of his college buddies to the ranch. The one from Boston had never fired a gun in his life, and here he was in by-God-Texas shooting a revolver (after a detailed safety and gun manners session). He was some happy, and burned a bunch of 38 ammo, and is apparently asking for another trip. Says he’s never going back to live in Boston, and since he’s conservative, we decided to let him stay in Texas.

March 25, 2020, 07:05 PM	#21
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Dang Bob, I was gonna suggest the same thing. Look for 38/44 S&W data. There was an article in Handloader magazine within the last year and a half with data for the .38/44 Heavy Duty and 38/44 Outdoorsman, both .38 Spl. Revolvers on the .44 "N" frame S&W. The cartridge was the forerunner of the .357 Magnum. I've had two of those Outdoorsman revolvers and I killed a Black Bear with the one I had back in 1959 on the Fourth of July weekend. Two shots and one very dead bear. Going from memory, the powder was H2400 and the bullet the 158 gr. Lyman #359156 gas check type. I remember the bullet because I still have and use that mold in my current 38/44 and .357 Magnum. Note that the early load was with Hercules #2400 and not the current Alliant #2400. based on work with A2400 in my .357 Mag. I get the feeling it it slightly faster burning than the old Hercules version but, That just could be me. I've been running that bullet with 5.0 gr. of Unique in the 38/44 in deference to that older gun which I like very very much. IIRC, the muzzle velocity of those old 38/44 factory loads was somewhere around 1100 to 1200 FPS with a 15 gr. Bullet. Worked just fine. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

March 25, 2020, 07:17 PM	#22
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	If you insist on going XtraHot use a forgiving powder like HS6/W540, AA#7, or WAP / Ramshot Silhouette.