Handguns with barrels not tilting up when being racked

[liv4spd]

It seems that most handgun barrels will tilt up when being racked. I love those that do not tilt up, like CZ P-01 and Beretta 92, etc. They also seem to be more accurate.

Is my observation correct? What are other handguns with barrels not tilting up when being racked?

[Aguila Blanca]

What handguns have barrels that tilt UP when racked? My breadth of experience is admittedly narrow in scope, as I'm basically a 191 guy, but I can't think of any.

[PzGren]

A few come immediately to mind that do not use J.M. Browning's locking system:

-Walther P38, using a locking block (Beretta copied it)
-HK P7/PSP - gas delayed blowback
-HK P9S roller lock, CZ 52 copied it
-DWM Parabellum pistol - toggle lock delayed blowback, first developed by Hiram Maxim
-HK VP 70 -direct blowback and the first "plastic" framed pistol

...and of course almost all rimfire and pistols up to .380 ACP. As far as I know, the CZ75 uses a modified Browning lock up and the barrel locks into the mating recesses in the slide, the barrel has to tilt down to allow the slide to move back.

[Jim Watson]

Up, down, whatever. The breech comes down, the muzzle tips up.
Hey, they tilt when they shoot, too. Just real quick. And have since 1909.

More accurate? In service pistols, it is pretty much a wash between action types. You can accurize a Beretta for 50 yard target shooting but in spite of the "one ragged hole at ten yards" posts, I have not heard of anybody doing NRA Precision with a CZ.

In designs other than the Browning tilting barrel lockup, I can add rotating barrels like Steyr, Obregon, Beretta, and Grand Power. The Lahti and Archon have separate locking blocks unlike Beretta/Walther.

[wild cat mccane]

Rotating PX4 and Glock 46 or AF-1 Strike One Bergmann stystem..

I would imagine the Sig X-5 P226 or P210 are the most accurate $2K under gun right now in production that match or better comparable 1911/2011s? Both tilt.

Mechanical accuracy vs bullseye marksman accuracy are two different ideas.

The CZ Shadow 2 leads the comp world followed by the P320/Glock for production guns like the 92 you mention. So probably not a necessary accuracy system at all in an auto for bullseye comp.

[Jim Watson]

Mechanical accuracy vs bullseye marksman accuracy are two different ideas.

I figure the bullseye marksman wants good mechanical accuracy so all he is testing is his own skill.

The CZ Shadow 2 leads the (run 'n gun 6x8" A zone) comp world

Clarified that a bit.

[sevt_chevelle]

Hmmm...
The CZ 75 action, which the P01 is part of, does in fact tilt. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to lock and unlock.
Take the barrel out and look at where the slide release pin goes through, that kidney bean shape causes the barrel to tilt down as the slide moves back.

[wild cat mccane]

True that Jim. I don't think much of anything is falling under thousands of dollars in the mechanical accuracy dept though. Just using the 92 referenced as a guess for price point being discussed.

At 500 dollars diff or 1/4 price, I'd imagine the P-226 X-Five is always more accurate than the 92X Performance. Mechanically. Tilt vs fixed. Too many factors in trigger, sights, twist, gun to gun variation to nail it to yes, the fixed barrel is always more accurate than the 95% locked at the locking lugs Petter title style.

I'm just not sure where to look to clarify what is considered the grail for information bullseye style non 22 competition. Not as easy as the other gun games.

I'd imagine none are done with the OP's 92 reference though.

[jmr40]

There are only a handful still in production that do not tilt up as the slide moves back and most of those are 22's. The Makarov is another.

https://oneshottactical.com/why-do-p...-up-heres-why/

[Forte S+W]

Straight blowback fixed barrel pistols such as the Walther PP(K/S) SIG P230, Makarov PM, FEG PA-63, Radom P64, Bersa Thunder 380, and more come to mind.

[1972RedNeck]

My two PX4s (.40 & .45) are both tack drivers. But my P229 and CZ 75 aren't slouches either, but I do shoot the PX4s better. Not sure if it's me or the guns. YMMV.

[44 AMP]

-DWM Parabellum pistol - toggle lock delayed blowback, first developed by Hiram Maxim

Sorry, but you got several points wrong here.

Maxim did develop the toggle lock system, and used it in his machine gun design. (and his toggle hinged down)

Hugo Borchardt turned the toggle over and used it in his pistol.

Georg Luger took Borchardt's toggle lock pistol, kept the toggle and redesigned about everything else and THAT pistol became known as the Pistole Parabellum (and called the Luger in the US)

The toggle lock is NOT a delayed blowback system. It is a locked breech recoil operated system just as the Browning tilt barrel lockup is. It is mechanically different but functionally the same, barrel and "bolt" (breechface) are locked together until recoil has moved them back a certain distance, at which point, they unlock and the barrel stops while the bolt continues rearward operating the action.

Fixed barrel guns tend to be more accurate than tilt barrel guns. Primarily where the barrel does not move, in relation to the sights. Fixed barrel blowback pistols where the sights are on the slide not the barrel are often not as accurate as guns where one, or both sights are "fixed" with the barrel, and if they move move in parallel with the barrel, in one plane, not two the way tilt barrels do.

There are guns with barrels that move during recoil, that do not tilt. The Luger is one. The original Auto Mag is another.

There are .22s where the sights do not move in relation to the barrel, and ones where the rear sight moves, but in the same plane as the barrel.

The Browning tilt barrel (and its variants) dominate the service pistol class, because they are reliable, cheap, simple and reliably handle the pressures and power of service pistol cartridges.

While the tilt barrel is common and most frequently chosen, there are several successful service pistol "families" that do not use the tilt barrel method.

[jar]

The Walther CCP line of pistols are somewhat unusual including 9mm fixed barrel design.

[Jim Watson]

Sure looks like a HK P7 in there.

Has the Mauser C96 Broomhandle been mentioned?

Herr Schwartzlose had ideas.
The elegant looking 1898 has a rotating bolt driven by straight line recoil. Hmm, kind of like an Automag.
His model of 1908 got really weird with a blow-forward action. Would a physicist say the barrel is dragged forward by friction with the departing bullet? Then the barrel slides back, scooping up the next round out of the magazine.

Don't look too closely at a Gabbett Fairfax Mars. It will blast your mind, as the wizard told Conan. Long recoil, and rearward opening magazine.


What do most of these non-Browning guns have in common? They are gone.

[wild cat mccane]

The Grand Power X-Calibur with rotating barrel has all but died in the US if availability means anything.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by PzGren

A few come immediately to mind that do not use J.M. Browning's locking system:

-Walther P38, using a locking block (Beretta copied it)
-HK P7/PSP - gas delayed blowback
-HK P9S roller lock, CZ 52 copied it
-DWM Parabellum pistol - toggle lock delayed blowback, first developed by Hiram Maxim
-HK VP 70 -direct blowback and the first "plastic" framed pistol

...and of course almost all rimfire and pistols up to .380 ACP. As far as I know, the CZ75 uses a modified Browning lock up and the barrel locks into the mating recesses in the slide, the barrel has to tilt down to allow the slide to move back.

Your initial post spoke of barrels that tilt UP when racking the slide, not down.

[Jim Watson]

If he is looking at the muzzle, it does appear to tip up.

[wild cat mccane]

Due to the fixed barrel, the Desert Eagle AE is known for accurate follow up shots.

[44 AMP]

So are the other Desert Eagles, particularly the .357, not especially due to the fixed barrel adding anything to the speed recovering from the recoil, but due to the 4lb+ weight of the pistol.

[ZoieBarnett]

Your observation is correct. Pistols whose barrels do not tilt upward when aimed at the rack may exhibit a straighter, more stable firing trajectory, which may contribute to improved accuracy.
There are several good models.
Glock 17: This pistol has a distinctive barrel that does not tilt upward, which promotes consistent shooting.
Smith & Wesson M&P9: Another popular choice among shooters, it has a straight barrel that helps in maintaining accuracy.
Springfield XD: The XD pistol is also known for its straight shooting trajectory and excellent accuracy.

[bac1023]

What handguns have barrels that tilt UP when racked? My breadth of experience is admittedly narrow in scope, as I'm basically a 191 guy, but I can't think of any.

You can start with the 1911. It tilts up

[bac1023]

Fixed barrel blowback pistols don’t tilt, but they aren’t locked breech designs.

Locked breech pistols that don’t tilt are pretty cool. I’ve got a number of them. My favorite is the AF Strike One.

[bac1023]

A few come immediately to mind that do not use J.M. Browning's locking system:

-Walther P38, using a locking block (Beretta copied it)
-HK P7/PSP - gas delayed blowback
-HK P9S roller lock, CZ 52 copied it
-DWM Parabellum pistol - toggle lock delayed blowback, first developed by Hiram Maxim
-HK VP 70 -direct blowback and the first "plastic" framed pistol

...and of course almost all rimfire and pistols up to .380 ACP. As far as I know, the CZ75 uses a modified Browning lock up and the barrel locks into the mating recesses in the slide, the barrel has to tilt down to allow the slide to move back.

Andy, the HK P9S and CZ 52 are quite different. One is a roller delayed blowback and the other is a roller locked breech.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by bac1023

You can start with the 1911. It tilts up

No, it tilts down. So does the Browning Hi-Power and the entire CZ-75 family of pistols.

[DT Guy]

I think the point everyone is trying to make, Aguila, is that the rear of the barrel tilts down, and when that happens the front of the barrel tilts UP.

That's how I'm understanding the question, at least.

Larry