Gas checks for 25-20?

Lurch37 · February 27, 2024, 06:54 PM

So I'm wanting to load up a middle of the road 25-20 WCF load for my old Winchester 92. The only jacketed bullet I can find/have right now is a Hornady 60gr flat point that, according to my Hornady manual, starts off at 1800fps with various powders, 2 of which I have, H110 and Accurate 1680. These bullets are somewhat expensive compared to cast but allow for higher velocity and zero leading.

I ran across Missouri Bullet Co. and found that they have lubed cast lead and coated cast lead bullets of the same weight, (85gr), hardness, (18 Brinell), and profile for the 25-20 at a significant cost savings. They provide no load data but I also found a load for the 25-20 out of a Lyman manual for an 85gr cast bullet that starts at 1300fps with various powders, 2 of which I have, H110 and Enforcer.

One of my first questions is if using the cast lead bullet, at what point or speed, (fps), is it necessary to have/need a gas check? The Missouri bullets aren't made with one nor do they have a relief at the base to install one. I really don't want to be scrubbing lead from my barrel so any advice would be most welcome.

blackhawk44 · February 27, 2024, 07:19 PM

Go to castboolits.gunloads.com and your questions will be answered. Also, occasionally check etbrass. They have a knack for coming up with brass and bullets for the 25-20 more often than anyplace I have ever seen. Nice folks.

Deltadart · February 27, 2024, 07:41 PM

You might have a look at MP molds. Here is their website and .258 3 cavity mold. Comes with 3 sets of pins for flat, cupped, or hollow point casting and is available with a gas check base. Throws about a 75 gr. bullet give or take.
I have one and it is very well made, customer service is outstanding. I am starting to work up my loads for my '92 in .25-20.
https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-...mold-gc-or-pb/

**44 AMP** · February 28, 2024, 02:00 AM

With plain base cast bullets the main factors in leading are bullet hardness (allow) speed and fit in the barrel. With the right allow, and fit you should be up into the 1800fps range without leading. Gas checks can usually get to 2200fps range but that's not a given with everything.

Call the bullet maker and see what they recommend for their bullets. I mean what velocity range they should be good for, not specific load data.

If the maker says "don't exceed "X", then don't.

wachtelhund1 · February 28, 2024, 01:54 PM

I reload .25-20 for Marlin 27s pumps. I shoot three of them, two have relined barrels. I load rounds with Speer 75 grain Cor Lock jacketed bullets and cast bullets. For cast bullets I have several molds, but the one that I use the most is a Lyman 65 grain, gas checked bullet. My castings with GC and lube - weighs 70 grain. I use Accurate 1680 powder, 11.3 grains for the Speer jacketed bullets. I have about a 1,000 jacketed bullets. For the 70 grain cast bullet I load AA2015, 13 to 14 grains. I could use other powders with less powder, but these powders meter well through my measure.

Six years ago or so, during the .22 shortage I loaded and shot over 3,000 .25-20 cast bullet rounds. I was loading them for .07 cents per round when I couldn't buy .22 ammo. How do I know, I purchased 25 cal GCs in 1,000 count boxes. I'm on my fourth box of 1,000 count GCs.

Eventhough, I've shot all these GC bullets, I've been considering having the GC portion of my mold milled off. It is a pain handling those small GCs when sizing the bullets. My cast bullets are 19 on the hardness scale, wheel weighs, tin and droped into cold water.

Deltadart · February 28, 2024, 05:13 PM

Just a thought but is it not better to purchase another mold rather than have the one you currently own modified. If it shoots well now you may want to go back to it some day. I don't know the cost of having it machined off, but from what I have seen, machining work is not cheap.

wachtelhund1 · February 28, 2024, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadart

Just a thought but is it not better to purchase another mold rather than have the one you currently own modified. If it shoots well now you may want to go back to it some day. I don't know the cost of having it machined off, but from what I have seen, machining work is not cheap.

That is a thought, but I don't know if I can find a mold for that bullet without a gas check. But I think I'll look. Thank you.

Lurch37 · February 28, 2024, 07:44 PM

Quote:

I use Accurate 1680 powder, 11.3 grains for the Speer jacketed bullets. I have about a 1,000 jacketed bullets. For the 70 grain cast bullet I load AA2015, 13 to 14 grains.

Have you been able to chronograph any of your loads? Not that it matters since your using a gas check but just for curiosity sake.

Deltadart · February 28, 2024, 08:28 PM

See my earlier post on MP molds they have a plain base .25.

wachtelhund1 · February 29, 2024, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadart

Just a thought but is it not better to purchase another mold rather than have the one you currently own modified. If it shoots well now you may want to go back to it some day. I don't know the cost of having it machined off, but from what I have seen, machining work is not cheap.

Deltadart, Thanks for the suggestion. I found the same (almost) Lyman mold on Amazon.com, without gas check; Lyman 2 Cavity # 257420 DC Mould 25 Cal. 65 Grains Rifle Bullet Mould. They had only one left. I got it for $80.00 with a gift card. I'll probably sell the other one, if I like the new one without GCs. I'm sure I will as I've been shooting the 65 grain bullets without GCs. Thanks again.

Deltadart · February 29, 2024, 01:52 PM

wachtelhund1, That's great, glad you found the mold. Please let me know how it works out. I do have a question on the Marlins. Did you have someone put the liners in? If so, did they do a good job and do you have a recommendation? I am thinking of having a liner put in my 1892 Winchester, .25-20.

wachtelhund1 · February 29, 2024, 02:56 PM

My local gunsmith did mine for me. He did a good job, they shoot well and it was free. I bought the drill, reamer and liner, he kept the drill and reamer. He did this a while ago. I had helped him put up a 36x40 building, I gave him a weekend of labor for framing, siding and roofing. In return, he built me two F Class rifles (I provided the materials), relined two of my Marlin 27s and rebarreled and chambered a Jap T38 to 6.5X57 Mauser for me. I think I came out ahead on the deal.

Lurch37 · February 29, 2024, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Call the bullet maker and see what they recommend for their bullets. I mean what velocity range they should be good for, not specific load data.

Thank you for that suggestion. I emailed them yesterday and they replied this morning, giving me some advice on which would be better and velocities not to exceed.

Black wallnut · March 4, 2024, 01:06 AM

Wow! It's been since June '08 since I last checked in here. Do a search of threads at forums.castbulletassociation.com or go to cast bullet assocation .com and click forums tab. Join and ask a question there. Within the last week some member was posting about a .25-20. While there navigate to Matches>match results>benchrest and look at match data seeking .25-20. YOu should be able to find a few suggestions for loads there. My guess is most will be plain base but not all.

If you can try plain base keep velocity below 1400 fps and cast softer 20:1 or 25:1 lead:tin for best results. Whatever bullet you use it needs to fit the throat or you will be disappointed. Lyman and most other commercial moulds will cast small for diameter. DAmn few custom mould makers will make a 25 caliber mould. Too hard to lathe bore that small.

Deltadart · March 4, 2024, 08:03 PM

NOE Bullet Molds is also an excellent source for high quality molds.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/

sundog · March 7, 2024, 11:24 AM

The RCBS 25-85-CM is a good plain base bullet for the 25-25. Unfortunately at the current price point, you would have to shoot ALOT of them to make a new one pay for itself. Find some SASS shooters, and you might get lucky that you get some.

P Flados · March 7, 2024, 10:44 PM

Coated cast bullets vs. traditional lube was a game changer for me.

In the "old days" I had guns that would not allow loads past 38 Sp power level without leading.

I tried powder coating my cast bullets and found that I could load any magnum pistol round to full power with zero leading.

After finding success with coated bullets, I transitioned to cast exclusively for all but 2 cartridges. I load magnum pistols, 9mm. I also load some bottle neck rounds for my TC Contender and 300 BO for use in AR-15s. Again, these loads have achieved full power loads with no leading.

I do use gas checks in combination with coating on some rounds because that is what the mold was made for and in some (not all) cases I have found them to be more accurate than if I leave the check off.

With a coating "fit" still matters. An undersized coated bullet can result in leading in high pressure ammo (9mm was my biggest challenge to get happy with).

For the 25-20, any coated cast bullet with good fit should work in any safe pressure load with no leading. And given the use in a model 92 lever gun, you have large margins for chamber pressures. Using load data for jacketed bullets with cast bullets should not be a concern.

February 27, 2024, 06:54 PM	#1
Lurch37 Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Middle of Nebraska Posts: 944	Gas checks for 25-20? So I'm wanting to load up a middle of the road 25-20 WCF load for my old Winchester 92. The only jacketed bullet I can find/have right now is a Hornady 60gr flat point that, according to my Hornady manual, starts off at 1800fps with various powders, 2 of which I have, H110 and Accurate 1680. These bullets are somewhat expensive compared to cast but allow for higher velocity and zero leading. I ran across Missouri Bullet Co. and found that they have lubed cast lead and coated cast lead bullets of the same weight, (85gr), hardness, (18 Brinell), and profile for the 25-20 at a significant cost savings. They provide no load data but I also found a load for the 25-20 out of a Lyman manual for an 85gr cast bullet that starts at 1300fps with various powders, 2 of which I have, H110 and Enforcer. One of my first questions is if using the cast lead bullet, at what point or speed, (fps), is it necessary to have/need a gas check? The Missouri bullets aren't made with one nor do they have a relief at the base to install one. I really don't want to be scrubbing lead from my barrel so any advice would be most welcome. __________________ I reject your reality and substitute my own.

February 27, 2024, 07:41 PM	#3
Deltadart Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 286	MP molds You might have a look at MP molds. Here is their website and .258 3 cavity mold. Comes with 3 sets of pins for flat, cupped, or hollow point casting and is available with a gas check base. Throws about a 75 gr. bullet give or take. I have one and it is very well made, customer service is outstanding. I am starting to work up my loads for my '92 in .25-20. https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-...mold-gc-or-pb/

February 28, 2024, 02:00 AM	#4
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,860	With plain base cast bullets the main factors in leading are bullet hardness (allow) speed and fit in the barrel. With the right allow, and fit you should be up into the 1800fps range without leading. Gas checks can usually get to 2200fps range but that's not a given with everything. Call the bullet maker and see what they recommend for their bullets. I mean what velocity range they should be good for, not specific load data. If the maker says "don't exceed "X", then don't. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 28, 2024, 01:54 PM	#5
wachtelhund1 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2007 Location: pelican lake, WI Posts: 414	.25-20 Loads I reload .25-20 for Marlin 27s pumps. I shoot three of them, two have relined barrels. I load rounds with Speer 75 grain Cor Lock jacketed bullets and cast bullets. For cast bullets I have several molds, but the one that I use the most is a Lyman 65 grain, gas checked bullet. My castings with GC and lube - weighs 70 grain. I use Accurate 1680 powder, 11.3 grains for the Speer jacketed bullets. I have about a 1,000 jacketed bullets. For the 70 grain cast bullet I load AA2015, 13 to 14 grains. I could use other powders with less powder, but these powders meter well through my measure. Six years ago or so, during the .22 shortage I loaded and shot over 3,000 .25-20 cast bullet rounds. I was loading them for .07 cents per round when I couldn't buy .22 ammo. How do I know, I purchased 25 cal GCs in 1,000 count boxes. I'm on my fourth box of 1,000 count GCs. Eventhough, I've shot all these GC bullets, I've been considering having the GC portion of my mold milled off. It is a pain handling those small GCs when sizing the bullets. My cast bullets are 19 on the hardness scale, wheel weighs, tin and droped into cold water.

March 4, 2024, 01:06 AM	#14
Black wallnut Member Join Date: September 28, 2002 Location: Central Washington Posts: 22	Wow! It's been since June '08 since I last checked in here. Do a search of threads at forums.castbulletassociation.com or go to cast bullet assocation .com and click forums tab. Join and ask a question there. Within the last week some member was posting about a .25-20. While there navigate to Matches>match results>benchrest and look at match data seeking .25-20. YOu should be able to find a few suggestions for loads there. My guess is most will be plain base but not all. If you can try plain base keep velocity below 1400 fps and cast softer 20:1 or 25:1 lead:tin for best results. Whatever bullet you use it needs to fit the throat or you will be disappointed. Lyman and most other commercial moulds will cast small for diameter. DAmn few custom mould makers will make a 25 caliber mould. Too hard to lathe bore that small. __________________ marK in WA I always bring a gun to a knife fight!

February 27, 2024, 07:19 PM	#2
blackhawk44 Member Join Date: August 5, 2012 Posts: 15	Go to castboolits.gunloads.com and your questions will be answered. Also, occasionally check etbrass. They have a knack for coming up with brass and bullets for the 25-20 more often than anyplace I have ever seen. Nice folks.

February 28, 2024, 05:13 PM	#6
Deltadart Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 286	Just a thought but is it not better to purchase another mold rather than have the one you currently own modified. If it shoots well now you may want to go back to it some day. I don't know the cost of having it machined off, but from what I have seen, machining work is not cheap.

February 28, 2024, 08:28 PM	#9
Deltadart Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 286	See my earlier post on MP molds they have a plain base .25.

February 29, 2024, 01:52 PM	#11
Deltadart Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 286	wachtelhund1, That's great, glad you found the mold. Please let me know how it works out. I do have a question on the Marlins. Did you have someone put the liners in? If so, did they do a good job and do you have a recommendation? I am thinking of having a liner put in my 1892 Winchester, .25-20.

February 29, 2024, 02:56 PM	#12
wachtelhund1 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2007 Location: pelican lake, WI Posts: 414	My local gunsmith did mine for me. He did a good job, they shoot well and it was free. I bought the drill, reamer and liner, he kept the drill and reamer. He did this a while ago. I had helped him put up a 36x40 building, I gave him a weekend of labor for framing, siding and roofing. In return, he built me two F Class rifles (I provided the materials), relined two of my Marlin 27s and rebarreled and chambered a Jap T38 to 6.5X57 Mauser for me. I think I came out ahead on the deal.

March 4, 2024, 08:03 PM	#15
Deltadart Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 286	NOE Bullet Molds is also an excellent source for high quality molds. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/

March 7, 2024, 11:24 AM	#16
sundog Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Green Country, OK Posts: 782	The RCBS 25-85-CM is a good plain base bullet for the 25-25. Unfortunately at the current price point, you would have to shoot ALOT of them to make a new one pay for itself. Find some SASS shooters, and you might get lucky that you get some. __________________ safety first

March 7, 2024, 10:44 PM	#17
P Flados Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2017 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 243	Coated cast bullets vs. traditional lube was a game changer for me. In the "old days" I had guns that would not allow loads past 38 Sp power level without leading. I tried powder coating my cast bullets and found that I could load any magnum pistol round to full power with zero leading. After finding success with coated bullets, I transitioned to cast exclusively for all but 2 cartridges. I load magnum pistols, 9mm. I also load some bottle neck rounds for my TC Contender and 300 BO for use in AR-15s. Again, these loads have achieved full power loads with no leading. I do use gas checks in combination with coating on some rounds because that is what the mold was made for and in some (not all) cases I have found them to be more accurate than if I leave the check off. With a coating "fit" still matters. An undersized coated bullet can result in leading in high pressure ammo (9mm was my biggest challenge to get happy with). For the 25-20, any coated cast bullet with good fit should work in any safe pressure load with no leading. And given the use in a model 92 lever gun, you have large margins for chamber pressures. Using load data for jacketed bullets with cast bullets should not be a concern. Last edited by P Flados; March 7, 2024 at 10:53 PM.