Evaluating gun and loads. - Page 2

Double K · October 13, 2020, 02:12 PM

The low end Axis comes with a 3x9 Bushnell Trophy, no adjustable objective, Parallax is set at 100yds. They say it's 100yds on the website but you would want to confirm that on your scope, inexpensive scopes can be off enough to effect accuracy testing.

Bart B. · October 13, 2020, 04:03 PM

270 shots about 10 inches extreme spread at 600 yards.

Which ones were the first 3? First 10?

stinkeypete · October 13, 2020, 05:33 PM

Which were the first 3? Tell us!
Which were the first 10? Tell us!

Assuming some crude statistics, three shots will sort of represent the behavior of 9 theoretical shots and 10 shots tells us that’s sort of what a group of 100 would give. It’s a “squared” thing.

To represent a group of 270 shots, 15 or 16 shots will likely represent the group adequately.

kmw1954 · October 13, 2020, 08:28 PM

Thanks folks!

I do shoot, reload and cast a lot of pistol so the whole idea and theory is not new. Just using a different type of firearm and at a greater distance and yes I am still learning about the science of rifle scopes. Then I first started working up pistol loads I would work in .1gr increments until I learned that was a waste of time and components and that even .2gr many times would not show a significant change.

Since I do not have a chrono I am playing the accuracy node game and not a velocity node. Most I have talked with at the range tell me they can usually find 2 nodes within a load. One a low power and one a high power and at times a third node in the middle if the load spread is great enough from start to max.

I am going to guess that the 22.3gr load as being the low node and the high node is somewhere above the 22.9 gr load that I stoped at. Max is at 24.0gr. so I am well below that. Then seeing that the 22.3gr. and the 22.6gr loads are pretty close I will also guess that the best load is somewhere in-between that. I did shoot all twenty of the 22.9gr load at three separate targets and they did not tighten up.

Sure a 6 shot group is more telling than a 3 shot group but that still doesn't mean a 12 shot group with be twice as telling as a 6 shot group. In my mind a 6 shot group repeated over 6 sessions will be more telling than shooting twenty all at the same time.

Everything works within a mechanical limitation including humans. I am looking at this as an exercise in finding the parameters of this rifle, myself and the ammunition I am using. Since I started this venture I have learned many new things beginning with the reloading process and brass prep. It is much different than what I do with pistols. I have learn a few things that work and things that don't.

I look at this first shooting session as the same sort of exercise. I found that the gun shoot and shoots very well in the hands of a novice. I also found that my reloads all went boom with no mishaps. And now with the convincing from all of you I am ready to move on and out to 100yds and see what happens.

Comment on the components. I also realize that these bullets and this powder may not be the optimum for this gun but it is what was available to get started with. At this time we take what we can get.

Now I just heard from my work and I do not work again until Friday so I am really hoping to get back out tomorrow or Thursday. I wish it was easier to attach pictures as I would post those targets.

kmw1954 · October 13, 2020, 08:38 PM

Something else I just noticed while looking over these targets again and that is that all the shot fired with the factory loads are directly above center of the bullseye and all the shots from my reloads are all below and very slightly right of the bullseye.

All shots were fired with a steady fix on center and no adjustment to the scope.

hounddawg · October 13, 2020, 08:56 PM

what is your goal kmw1954? If it is to develop decent skills for hunting then you are there. If it is to develop BR or F class skills you still have a long road ahead and lots of holes to punch.

Just a suggestion if you are serious about developing rifle skills. Best training tool for developing rifle skills is the humble .22LR. You don't need a $3K Anshutz, a off the shelf 450 dollar CZ with a $150 scope will do the trick.

A personal story. Before I took up rifles my wife and I both shot IDPA and steel challenge for many years. We were both pretty decent, she was the better of the two of us, until we had to stop because of physical reasons. I figured after pistols rifle would be simple. I was dead wrong. I struggled for several years to get past the sharpshooter classification in NRA F class. Then I put my centerfires in the gun safe and shot .22LR only for five or six months. Three hundred rounds a week or more at 25, 50, 100, and 200 yards. I jumped up two classes both in mid and long range within 4 months when I went back to competing with my centerfire. Same gear, same handloads the only difference was practice,practice, practice. Take it for whatever it is worth, or don't. Just some advice

kmw1954 · October 14, 2020, 02:04 AM

Hounddawg, this is for fun and personal satisfaction. Here in SE Wisconsin the population has grown and the open farmland is drying up. Hard to hunt small game when one is surrounded by homes. Use to be abundant rabbit and squirrels to hunt now they are almost domesticated. I actually enjoy the reloading and working up loads. It's one of the reasons after all these years that I took up lead casting. Kinda like building a hot rod to go fast and then just end up cruising. Besides with health problems and crippled up old legs it is near impossible to get out in the woods.

I have no illusions of becoming a world class long distance shooter but I do what to see how far I can go.

During the winter months the range I work has an informal rifle league and I may just see if the big boys will let me play.

hounddawg · October 14, 2020, 06:53 AM

well if that's your goal then the .22LR will be a valuable tool in the toolbox.That does not mean that you have to put up the .223 altogether, just se the .22LR to work on wind and technique and the .223 to work on reloading skills. The same bench technique will be required for both and the wind will be your biggest enemy. Which brings me to my second suggestion. Make a set of wind flags from some fiberglass driveway poles and boundary tape from the local hardware store. You will surprised at how much that bullet will move around in a 5MPH wind.

good luck and persevere, it will be frustrating at times but try and keep it fun and compete against yourself, not the other shooters

Double K · October 14, 2020, 09:40 AM

fyi, if you've ever been to a benchrest match guys will change their powder settings from day to day and from morning to afternoon because changes in temperature and humidity effect the accuracy of a load.
This can easily be proven by taking your favorite load to the range and shooting it at different times of the day several days in a row, groups will vary in size and shape typically.
Very few hunting rifles/mass produced bullets are capable of consistently producing really small groups. Everyone that has shot and loaded there own ammunition has at least a few targets saved that are really great, almost none of them can reproduce it on demand.
Keep that in mind when your working up loads.
Not trying to be negative just realistic.

kmw1954 · October 14, 2020, 12:21 PM

Thanks to everyone for their time and responses. Somehow though I think we are starting to "Jump the Gun".. I see the truth in these last comments and suggestions but much of that is way beyond where I am presently at.

What I am trying to accomplish is to properly evaluate this gun and the loads I am currently using. I fully understand that in order to get better one needs trigger time and practice. But at the same time one needs to be able to differentiate what is caused by the operator and what it caused by the bullet changes.

I do not have a tool to lock the gun in a vise on a bench to eliminate the gun movement to zero. I have to use bags like most do. That in and of it's self is going to cause inconsistency. I understand that there are many minuet changes that can be made to a round that will change it's behavior. Also w/o a chronograph I cannot evaluate velocity which also will limit my ability.

I guess what is at hand is what I an currently experiencing and how to properly evaluate what I am producing now. For instance I have been convinced by you all that I need to move to a longer distance.

**Unclenick** · October 14, 2020, 12:39 PM

I second Houndawg on the .22 and using it at 100 yards for trigger time practice. They don't tend to make a shooter jerk shots or flinch and the low recoil makes it easy to follow the sight movement to see that it isn't being moved left or right or down by your hands. A 10 mph crosswind will move a solid 40-grain high speed 22 LR slug about 5" at 100-yards to give you some wind doping practice. All good stuff.

For the gun you have, here is a plot of the uncertainty from randomness with different number of shots per groupl The green 1.0 line is the true average for an infinite number of rounds. This says about 19 out of 20 group sizes will fall between the red and blue lines, while one in 20 may be outside the lines, on average.

hounddawg · October 14, 2020, 05:34 PM

Quote:

I guess what is at hand is what I an currently experiencing and how to properly evaluate what I am producing now.

You can always ask a friend at the range who is a good rifleman to test some loads for you

kmw1954 · October 15, 2020, 09:58 AM

I will do that, there are a couple I feel comfortable asking. Then I can also get feedback on the low quality of the gun compared to what they shoot.

Looking to head out to the range in an hour or so, so I hope to have more to report later today.

kmw1954 · October 15, 2020, 03:32 PM

Just back from the range.

As expected and predicted these groups all opened up though they are consistent in pattern as those from the 50yd shoot. Also the 2 groups that showed the most consistency are the same two as the 50yd target. That being between the 22.3gr load and the 22.6gr load. The 2 lower powered loads were so much larger at both distances that I believe they can be discarded along with the load at 22.9gr which shot horrible even at just 50yds.

Now I will also add that I was shooting today with only a front rest and only my hand as the rear rest.. So I don't think that was very stable and could have been better. Avg. group size is 2moa with one that if I remove the flyer I know I jerked because it is way opposite everything else that group would be 1moa.

All-in-all it is what I expected from both me and the gun and I am sure I can improve. Also reviewing these targets from today I see most of these shots are within 1"/1.25" wide with much more movement in elevation, top to bottom of about 2"

So what would that suggest other than I need lots of practice!

hounddawg · October 15, 2020, 05:42 PM

make a squeeze bag for the rear, the pulse in your hand will open your groups up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-Q-sRq3Cs

get a few fiberglass driveway marker rods from Home Depot, get some surveyors tape there also. Attach a couple of feet of the tape to each pole and you have cheap and effective wind flags

practice practice and more practice

kmw1954 · October 15, 2020, 07:02 PM

For the bags I think I'll just buy the right ones and the range I shoot we do already have wind flags set out at 50/100 and at the bottom of the berm. Same on the 200/300yd range.

Now I need to make more 223.

hounddawg · October 15, 2020, 09:21 PM

I have 2 sets of nice Protektor bags but I still have a home made squeeze bag made from a sock. For some rifles it just works better plus it stores good in my range bag just in case I forget to toss one of the store boughts in the truck.

Old saying among benchresters. 4 flags are not enough and 5 are too many. Plus I bet your range flags are way higher than your targets. Go to a short range benchrest match sometime. Every competitor will have their own set of flags set slightly below target height and it is not uncommon to see every one blowing in a different direction at the same time. No offense meant but you have no idea how complex a hobby precision rifle is yet

kmw1954 · October 15, 2020, 10:55 PM

"No offense meant but you have no idea how complex a hobby precision rifle is yet"

I think the past 6 months have given me a good glimpse with the bits I have talked with the shooters that are coming in regularly two to three times a week. Also smart enough to know and admit I am so new to this that I don't even qualify as a novice!

I do appreciate you continuing this conversation with me I hope I'm asking the right questions and explaining clearly enough my thoughts.

Currant goals are to establish a good working load to practice with, get to 1moa at 100yards, learn more about bottleneck reloading, learn more about quality optics.

Bart B. · October 17, 2020, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmw1954

Something else I just noticed while looking over these targets again and that is that all the shot fired with the factory loads are directly above center of the bullseye and all the shots from my reloads are all below and very slightly right of the bullseye.

All shots were fired with a steady fix on center and no adjustment to the scope.

I've seen this happen shooting a 5 shot group, reloading 5 more, then shooting them. The shooter's holding the rifle different for the second group.

kmw1954 · October 17, 2020, 06:43 PM

Just to clarify this has been the same from 3 different firings.

3 different firings on 2 separate sessions of the factory ammo represented by 30 shots all just above the bullseye. The a total of 100 reloads shot at two separate sessions all placed below the bullseye.

I'm thinking it's a FPS related issue.

Bart B. · October 18, 2020, 10:22 AM

A 100 fps difference in velocity has less than a quarter inch drop difference at 100 yards.

October 13, 2020, 05:33 PM	#28
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	Which were the first 3? Tell us! Which were the first 10? Tell us! Assuming some crude statistics, three shots will sort of represent the behavior of 9 theoretical shots and 10 shots tells us that’s sort of what a group of 100 would give. It’s a “squared” thing. To represent a group of 270 shots, 15 or 16 shots will likely represent the group adequately. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

October 13, 2020, 08:56 PM	#31
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	what is your goal kmw1954? If it is to develop decent skills for hunting then you are there. If it is to develop BR or F class skills you still have a long road ahead and lots of holes to punch. Just a suggestion if you are serious about developing rifle skills. Best training tool for developing rifle skills is the humble .22LR. You don't need a $3K Anshutz, a off the shelf 450 dollar CZ with a $150 scope will do the trick. A personal story. Before I took up rifles my wife and I both shot IDPA and steel challenge for many years. We were both pretty decent, she was the better of the two of us, until we had to stop because of physical reasons. I figured after pistols rifle would be simple. I was dead wrong. I struggled for several years to get past the sharpshooter classification in NRA F class. Then I put my centerfires in the gun safe and shot .22LR only for five or six months. Three hundred rounds a week or more at 25, 50, 100, and 200 yards. I jumped up two classes both in mid and long range within 4 months when I went back to competing with my centerfire. Same gear, same handloads the only difference was practice,practice, practice. Take it for whatever it is worth, or don't. Just some advice __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

October 14, 2020, 06:53 AM	#33
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	well if that's your goal then the .22LR will be a valuable tool in the toolbox.That does not mean that you have to put up the .223 altogether, just se the .22LR to work on wind and technique and the .223 to work on reloading skills. The same bench technique will be required for both and the wind will be your biggest enemy. Which brings me to my second suggestion. Make a set of wind flags from some fiberglass driveway poles and boundary tape from the local hardware store. You will surprised at how much that bullet will move around in a 5MPH wind. good luck and persevere, it will be frustrating at times but try and keep it fun and compete against yourself, not the other shooters __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

October 14, 2020, 12:39 PM	#36
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I second Houndawg on the .22 and using it at 100 yards for trigger time practice. They don't tend to make a shooter jerk shots or flinch and the low recoil makes it easy to follow the sight movement to see that it isn't being moved left or right or down by your hands. A 10 mph crosswind will move a solid 40-grain high speed 22 LR slug about 5" at 100-yards to give you some wind doping practice. All good stuff. For the gun you have, here is a plot of the uncertainty from randomness with different number of shots per groupl The green 1.0 line is the true average for an infinite number of rounds. This says about 19 out of 20 group sizes will fall between the red and blue lines, while one in 20 may be outside the lines, on average. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 15, 2020, 05:42 PM	#40
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	make a squeeze bag for the rear, the pulse in your hand will open your groups up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-Q-sRq3Cs get a few fiberglass driveway marker rods from Home Depot, get some surveyors tape there also. Attach a couple of feet of the tape to each pole and you have cheap and effective wind flags practice practice and more practice __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; October 15, 2020 at 05:48 PM.

October 13, 2020, 02:12 PM	#26
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	The low end Axis comes with a 3x9 Bushnell Trophy, no adjustable objective, Parallax is set at 100yds. They say it's 100yds on the website but you would want to confirm that on your scope, inexpensive scopes can be off enough to effect accuracy testing.

October 13, 2020, 04:03 PM	#27
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	270 shots about 10 inches extreme spread at 600 yards. Which ones were the first 3? First 10?

October 13, 2020, 08:28 PM	#29
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Thanks folks! I do shoot, reload and cast a lot of pistol so the whole idea and theory is not new. Just using a different type of firearm and at a greater distance and yes I am still learning about the science of rifle scopes. Then I first started working up pistol loads I would work in .1gr increments until I learned that was a waste of time and components and that even .2gr many times would not show a significant change. Since I do not have a chrono I am playing the accuracy node game and not a velocity node. Most I have talked with at the range tell me they can usually find 2 nodes within a load. One a low power and one a high power and at times a third node in the middle if the load spread is great enough from start to max. I am going to guess that the 22.3gr load as being the low node and the high node is somewhere above the 22.9 gr load that I stoped at. Max is at 24.0gr. so I am well below that. Then seeing that the 22.3gr. and the 22.6gr loads are pretty close I will also guess that the best load is somewhere in-between that. I did shoot all twenty of the 22.9gr load at three separate targets and they did not tighten up. Sure a 6 shot group is more telling than a 3 shot group but that still doesn't mean a 12 shot group with be twice as telling as a 6 shot group. In my mind a 6 shot group repeated over 6 sessions will be more telling than shooting twenty all at the same time. Everything works within a mechanical limitation including humans. I am looking at this as an exercise in finding the parameters of this rifle, myself and the ammunition I am using. Since I started this venture I have learned many new things beginning with the reloading process and brass prep. It is much different than what I do with pistols. I have learn a few things that work and things that don't. I look at this first shooting session as the same sort of exercise. I found that the gun shoot and shoots very well in the hands of a novice. I also found that my reloads all went boom with no mishaps. And now with the convincing from all of you I am ready to move on and out to 100yds and see what happens. Comment on the components. I also realize that these bullets and this powder may not be the optimum for this gun but it is what was available to get started with. At this time we take what we can get. Now I just heard from my work and I do not work again until Friday so I am really hoping to get back out tomorrow or Thursday. I wish it was easier to attach pictures as I would post those targets.

October 13, 2020, 08:38 PM	#30
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Something else I just noticed while looking over these targets again and that is that all the shot fired with the factory loads are directly above center of the bullseye and all the shots from my reloads are all below and very slightly right of the bullseye. All shots were fired with a steady fix on center and no adjustment to the scope.

October 14, 2020, 02:04 AM	#32
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Hounddawg, this is for fun and personal satisfaction. Here in SE Wisconsin the population has grown and the open farmland is drying up. Hard to hunt small game when one is surrounded by homes. Use to be abundant rabbit and squirrels to hunt now they are almost domesticated. I actually enjoy the reloading and working up loads. It's one of the reasons after all these years that I took up lead casting. Kinda like building a hot rod to go fast and then just end up cruising. Besides with health problems and crippled up old legs it is near impossible to get out in the woods. I have no illusions of becoming a world class long distance shooter but I do what to see how far I can go. During the winter months the range I work has an informal rifle league and I may just see if the big boys will let me play.

October 14, 2020, 09:40 AM	#34
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	fyi, if you've ever been to a benchrest match guys will change their powder settings from day to day and from morning to afternoon because changes in temperature and humidity effect the accuracy of a load. This can easily be proven by taking your favorite load to the range and shooting it at different times of the day several days in a row, groups will vary in size and shape typically. Very few hunting rifles/mass produced bullets are capable of consistently producing really small groups. Everyone that has shot and loaded there own ammunition has at least a few targets saved that are really great, almost none of them can reproduce it on demand. Keep that in mind when your working up loads. Not trying to be negative just realistic.

October 14, 2020, 12:21 PM	#35
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Thanks to everyone for their time and responses. Somehow though I think we are starting to "Jump the Gun".. I see the truth in these last comments and suggestions but much of that is way beyond where I am presently at. What I am trying to accomplish is to properly evaluate this gun and the loads I am currently using. I fully understand that in order to get better one needs trigger time and practice. But at the same time one needs to be able to differentiate what is caused by the operator and what it caused by the bullet changes. I do not have a tool to lock the gun in a vise on a bench to eliminate the gun movement to zero. I have to use bags like most do. That in and of it's self is going to cause inconsistency. I understand that there are many minuet changes that can be made to a round that will change it's behavior. Also w/o a chronograph I cannot evaluate velocity which also will limit my ability. I guess what is at hand is what I an currently experiencing and how to properly evaluate what I am producing now. For instance I have been convinced by you all that I need to move to a longer distance.

October 15, 2020, 09:58 AM	#38
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	I will do that, there are a couple I feel comfortable asking. Then I can also get feedback on the low quality of the gun compared to what they shoot. Looking to head out to the range in an hour or so, so I hope to have more to report later today.

October 15, 2020, 03:32 PM	#39
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Just back from the range. As expected and predicted these groups all opened up though they are consistent in pattern as those from the 50yd shoot. Also the 2 groups that showed the most consistency are the same two as the 50yd target. That being between the 22.3gr load and the 22.6gr load. The 2 lower powered loads were so much larger at both distances that I believe they can be discarded along with the load at 22.9gr which shot horrible even at just 50yds. Now I will also add that I was shooting today with only a front rest and only my hand as the rear rest.. So I don't think that was very stable and could have been better. Avg. group size is 2moa with one that if I remove the flyer I know I jerked because it is way opposite everything else that group would be 1moa. All-in-all it is what I expected from both me and the gun and I am sure I can improve. Also reviewing these targets from today I see most of these shots are within 1"/1.25" wide with much more movement in elevation, top to bottom of about 2" So what would that suggest other than I need lots of practice!

October 15, 2020, 07:02 PM	#41
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	For the bags I think I'll just buy the right ones and the range I shoot we do already have wind flags set out at 50/100 and at the bottom of the berm. Same on the 200/300yd range. Now I need to make more 223.

October 15, 2020, 09:21 PM	#42
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	I have 2 sets of nice Protektor bags but I still have a home made squeeze bag made from a sock. For some rifles it just works better plus it stores good in my range bag just in case I forget to toss one of the store boughts in the truck. Old saying among benchresters. 4 flags are not enough and 5 are too many. Plus I bet your range flags are way higher than your targets. Go to a short range benchrest match sometime. Every competitor will have their own set of flags set slightly below target height and it is not uncommon to see every one blowing in a different direction at the same time. No offense meant but you have no idea how complex a hobby precision rifle is yet __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

October 15, 2020, 10:55 PM	#43
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	"No offense meant but you have no idea how complex a hobby precision rifle is yet" I think the past 6 months have given me a good glimpse with the bits I have talked with the shooters that are coming in regularly two to three times a week. Also smart enough to know and admit I am so new to this that I don't even qualify as a novice! I do appreciate you continuing this conversation with me I hope I'm asking the right questions and explaining clearly enough my thoughts. Currant goals are to establish a good working load to practice with, get to 1moa at 100yards, learn more about bottleneck reloading, learn more about quality optics.

October 17, 2020, 06:43 PM	#45
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Just to clarify this has been the same from 3 different firings. 3 different firings on 2 separate sessions of the factory ammo represented by 30 shots all just above the bullseye. The a total of 100 reloads shot at two separate sessions all placed below the bullseye. I'm thinking it's a FPS related issue.

October 18, 2020, 10:22 AM	#46
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	A 100 fps difference in velocity has less than a quarter inch drop difference at 100 yards.