HK 416 Making Inroads

[RC20]

I have been fascinated by the subject of the AR, AK.

I had an RA XCR. While it had some primer crater issues, overall the ergonomics beat an AR all hollow (my opinion, I know a lot of AR guys like it)

The HK 416 has been on my radar to watch, was very interested in the Marine and moving to the MK 27 variant for the IAR. I thought it was the first move in getting rid of the M4. Made sense, civilian wise the AR works fine, combat the less picky the better.

Now the Marines are talking about giving their Infantry (Rifle Companies) the Mk 27. The SAW is not fully replaced as a plan. but supplement quite a bit from the reports.

This was an interesting read.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...e-on-the-ar-15

Marines don't plan on equipping other support groups like Morters but do include combat engineers in the benefit.

Shame they kept the ergonomics of an AR in my opinion, that forward assist has always left me laughing (if its jammed make it jammed harder!)

A 6.5 Creed version would add a lot.

[marine6680]

Its not all sunshine and rainbows...

The Mk 27 has its own issues as well.

Overall, I think that it has some positives, and the negatives are no worse than the M4 in the end.

I think the age of the average M4 and M16 in inventory has more to do with perceived endemic issues than any significant improvement of the HK over the current rifles.


Overall... If you have quality DI AR, and know how to maintain it properly... Meaning parts replacement as a preventative measure, rather than a reactionary repair measure... Understand how to clean and lubricate it properly... And use good mags... You will not have any more reliability issues than other rifle designs, piston or no...

Thing is... All that applies to any rifle, the HK included.


I will tell you that unless it has changed... The civilian HK 416 is a very poor imitation of the real deal, from what I have read. Corners cut... lower grade barrel... Things like that.

[RC20]

As stated, for Civilian use a wash.

Having seen the crud build up in an AR after a lot of firing, in a hot dirty place, not a good thing. Cleaning a gun in that arena(s) is not alwyas an option.

It seems the action system improves that a great deal.

DI not a problem if reasonably clean and you can (and do) clean it.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Looks like even budget DI rifles run just fine even when not reasonably clean and not cleaned. I’d be more inclined to share the view expressed earlier that the main thing the M27 has going for it is being new (for now).

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=412735

[marine6680]

Just Google filthy 14 if you think a DI gun needs to be anything like reasonably clean to function...

A well made DI gun can run for a long time even when very dirty.

[ttarp]

I think heat transfer and sustainable rate of fire are the biggest selling points for the 416 over an M4, the piston design can simply take more abuse and run longer than the DI can. There was a somewhat recent incident "over there", where that became a major issue. Does that alone warrant replacement? To many, yes it does, to more, absolutely not. Just my observations, not trying to pick a fight.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There was a somewhat recent incident "over there", where that became a major issue.

Surely, you aren't talking about the Battle of Wanat? That happened almost ten years ago and heat became an issue because they burnt up two piston-operated, belt fed M249s, lost one M240 and the .50 and were going cyclic with the M4 (going on memory).

Since that incident, the Army upgraded all M4s to the heavier M4A1 barrel profile, though I'm sure the M27 would do better still with its heavy 19.5" barrel; but if you are killing beltfeds with the rate of fire, an M27 isn't going to survive either. Were you referring to some other more recent incident?

[ttarp]

No I think that was the one, and I wasn't intending to suggest the 416's wouldn't have had issues as well, or that they would have been the solution to that situation, but it probably read that way. I didn't realize it was that long ago!

[Venom1956]

While I own piston guns they are a solution to a problem no one asked. The pros and cons of each are over blown. Quality rifles are gonna be able to go head to head. Pick your poison and enjoy.

[RC20]

I have seen what occurs with a DI in a clean and cooler environment. They do need cleaning and they need lubing. Lube attract stuff.

I am not dissing a DI for a low cost effective approach.

I have also seen the various pistons and how they function.

Definitely an improvement even in the lower applications.

M1, M1 Carbine, AK, SKS etc are a long proven cycling mechanism, the DI is the new one.

Of all the guns I got to shoot and examine in depth, I thought the RA XCR was by far the best both functionality and ergonomic. They have since gone to a short stroke system ala the HK 416 (have not had a chance to shoot one)

The AK is an atrocity in many ways but it sure woks.

In the case of a combat weapons, working and reliability go hand in hand.

The HK 416 looks to be a step in the right direction even if I don't care for the ergonomics.

[Fishbed77]

M1, M1 Carbine, AK, SKS etc are a long proven cycling mechanism, the DI is the new one.

Not really.

Gas operation was invented in 1883 by Karel Krnka, and the first direct impingement rifle was the Rossignol ENT from 1900. The direct impingement MAS 40 was designed in the 1930s and was developed into the very successful MAS 49. The Swedish adopted the direct impingement Ag m/42 in 1942.

Piston operation and DI gas operation have existed alongside one another pretty much since the birth of self-loading rifles.

[Big Shrek]

H&K 416 is simply a better mousetrap.
Leaps & bounds over an M16A2, which is where my "hands-on" knowledge
of modern issue Army Gear drops off...

Would prefer to see our guys with more 7.62 chambered stuff, but that's a
personal preference...

[RC20]

From what I have seen on the range and affect, the new 6.5s look to be a good in between answer.

Its long been a mainstay in Europe, its used to hung moose.

Japanese and Italians used it for their main arms (Japan did change but that seems to be for a medium machine gun purpose rather than rifle)

Granted the bullets are far more advanced now.

M1 was originally a 270. Brits Pattern 13(?) was a 270. Post WWII the Brits studied it a lot and 270 caliber came out as the best compromise.

6.5 these days is the 1000 yard cartridge and in the Creed or Lapua would not affect round carry much and return a lot in flexibility from short to as long as you can realistically shoot one sans a trained sniper.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The whole point of an assault rifle is to use an intermediate caliber so you aren’t killing your logistical capacity toting around a cartridge that 95% of your troops can’t effectively use past 300m anyway.

6.5 Creedmoor has the same logistical footprint as 7.62x51 (20 round mags, AR10 action, ~10 less rounds per pound, cost per round, heat load, etc).

Not to mention, there isn’t much point to switching to a piston because it runs marginally cooler and then using a caliber with almost twice the case capacity. That pretty well reverses any cooling gains even before we get into reliability and service life.

[marine6680]

If I had to choose between a high quality DI and a high quality piston AR...

I'm going DI...

[Sharkbite]

There are already a cpl countries in the mid-east using 6.8 AR pattern rifles

[jad0110]

The whole point of an assault rifle is to use an intermediate caliber so you aren’t killing your logistical capacity toting around a cartridge that 95% of your troops can’t effectively use past 300m anyway.

Exactly, and inside 300m is where most fighting takes place anyway, where the 5.56 works quite well. Low recoil, fast follow up shots, more rounds for the same amount of weight and for those that doubt it, just study the wounding characteristics of 5.56 at those ranges. Quite nasty. Supposedly, and this may just be an internet myth, the Soviets moved to the 5.45 in part because of the nasty wounds the 5.56 was creating in Vietnam. BS perhaps, I really don't know. But, for those few times when you need the extra reach, give your squad DMR a .308 AR-10 (for commonality in manual of arms with the M4). 6.5 Creedmoor is more attractive still, but, there is also the costs of a wholesale switch from .308 to 6.5 that in my mind just isn't worth it. Opportunity cost.

Good DI guns (or in the case of the AR, a semi DI gun ... remember, the bolt itself is actually the piston moving inside the carrier) run just fine dirty. They don't even have to be soaked with lube as most think either - just lightly damp. BCM Filthy 14 proved that. As always, bad mags are usually the culprit. Or ARs with an improper conglomeration of parts / specs (grossly over or under gassed). And the AR (and probably even more so the M4/M16 in the supply system) is absolutely "blessed" with a metric butt ton of crummy mags floating around in the ether.

As for sustained fire, the AR was never designed or intended to be a Squad Automatic Weapon ... but that's what everyone seems to want to turn it into. It was intended to be a lightweight, reliable, easy to carry and maneuverable rifle capable of short bursts of automatic fire ... not mag dump after mag dump after mag dump. Trying to turn your light rifle or carbine into a SAW seems to be a less than optimum solution, you end up with a heavy, slow, crummy handling carbine and a less than robust SAW. That's how it looks to this particular keyboard commando anyway LOL !

[RC20]

I don't know about keyboard commando, usually pretty informed gun owners is my take.

The 300 meter thing has been discussed a lot since the Russians went with PPS in WWII. Validity and justification in that time and date, hmmm. We don't need 2000 yards ala a 30-06, but something with a split that was effective would be a significant improvement.

We are not longer conscript army nor WWII.

The M series has kept getting shorter and shorter. Its not they don't need the velocity , its it won't fit inside a Bradley, Hummer MRAP etc. ergo the M4.

The wounding affect of the M16 round in Vietnam was due to the velocity, distance (close) and an unstable bullet (tumbling).

The 62 grain has lost that. One ballistics type has stated if you go to the 70+ grain rounds, that returns. But then..........

I don't know how many reports I have read of just straight through shots on insurgents and if not a vital hit, they go home until they heal up and then back at it.

I don't know a military 6.5 would change that.

I have followed the repots on the M4/16, its reliable if you can clean it and keep it lubed, but that is problematic in those conditions. Europe or a jungle not as bad, not nice but not the sand issue.

So yes I am a believer in short stroke or long stroke actions.

I think we can do better, I think we could do a lot better. I think the military is stuck in the rut much like they were for so long with single shot guns even after the Civil War (Custer comes to mind) - 1903 Cutoff so they did not waste ammo.

What I am reading from the Marines is that they agree, the Mk 27 can't replace the SAW in its entirety. It looks like it supplements it well.

The Marines still qualify at 600 yards and you will always have some long shots there no matter what the environment. If you can have a round that works in both situations that a plus.

The 6.8 SPC was not that far off a 6.5 Creed . It was a loss of 2 or 3 rounds in a 30 rounde magainze as I recall.
There would be a small loss in carrty, but a big gain in range and lehality (done right) .
Rather than 3 rounds to kill an insurgent, one or 2 and more ammo.
Back to I think we have better and can do better.

[marine6680]

New bullet designs like the 855A1 make the need to move up to larger calibers basically zero right now.

The problem with military rifles... They are poorly maintained.

They don't receive much preventive maintenance and part replacement.

They are abused and over cleaned to the point of damage, just to give the grunts some busy work.

Magazines are a mixed bag... But hopefully the recent change to pmags by several branches will help with that.

And worst of all... The average grunt on the ground is highly ignorant of their weapons. It's mostly surface level understanding. Combined with a lot of misinformation passed down since the early days in Vietnam, when the rifles first started having issues.

Most have no idea how to diagnose a malfunction, or what to look for to prevent issues. Maybe it has changed since I was in, but that is how it was when I was active duty.


Keep it dry, lube it heavy, lube it light... All are ideas that float around...

I talked to one guy who kept his rifle as dry as he could by wiping down every part with a clean dry rag after cleaning... He kept a small bottle of lube with a flip top on him in an easy to get spot.

In a firefight, he would fire his first mag, then get behind cover, and grab the bottle of lube and dump it in his rifle while the action was locked open. Reload and keep firing...

Basically you get all kinds of odd ideas revolving around the current issue rifles.

Reliability issues are bound to happen in that kind of haphazard environment.

Even the Mk27 isn't really much more reliable over there from the few first hand accounts I have read.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The 62 grain has lost that

According to Fackler, M855 62gr tumbles more or less identical to 55gr M193 (going from memory about 25% doesn’t tumble at all and another 15% or so tumble after a longer neck). This is somewhat related to the position of the nose at the time of impact and minor variations from barrel to barrel. It’s also why the successor to M855, 62gr M855A1 doesn’t rely on the same mechanism to be effective.

[Rob228]

The problem with military rifles... They are poorly maintained.

They don't receive much preventive maintenance and part replacement.

They are abused and over cleaned to the point of damage, just to give the grunts some busy work.

Magazines are a mixed bag... But hopefully the recent change to pmags by several branches will help with that.

And worst of all... The average grunt on the ground is highly ignorant of their weapons. It's mostly surface level understanding. Combined with a lot of misinformation passed down since the early days in Vietnam, when the rifles first started having issues.

Most have no idea how to diagnose a malfunction, or what to look for to prevent issues. Maybe it has changed since I was in, but that is how it was when I was active duty.

THIS.

Every time I had a magazine that was no good (I kept them all numbered, three double feeds with the same magazine meant it went away) I literally smashed it with a rock before taking it back to the armory. That way, it was 100% certain that it would not end up getting issued to someone else.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Yeah, magazines in military service are great when new; but when i was in, they would circulate the same dented, non-working aluminium Vietnam-era mags until you physically destroy them. That’s why I like PMAGs - they just crack and then you have a visual identifier the magazine is bad as well as an agency-acceptable reason to get rid of it.

With the metal mags, you never know what person has been “fixing” the feedlips or doing other helpful maintenance until you slap a magazine in the rifle and it burps up 10 rounds into the chamber.

That is one place magazine bans are unhelpful. Once normal sized magazines become restricted items, trying to remove bad ones from agency inventories becomes some kind of paperwork Anabasis.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

DI AR15s vs. HK416 at 20,000 to 30,000 rounds a month of full-auto (skip to 4:50):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PApRcRE-ft8

[Big Shrek]

Originally Posted by marine6680

New bullet designs like the 855A1 make the need to move up to larger calibers basically zero right now.

The problem with military rifles... They are poorly maintained.

They don't receive much preventive maintenance and part replacement.

They are abused and over cleaned to the point of damage, just to give the grunts some busy work.

Magazines are a mixed bag... But hopefully the recent change to pmags by several branches will help with that.

And worst of all... The average grunt on the ground is highly ignorant of their weapons. It's mostly surface level understanding. Combined with a lot of misinformation passed down since the early days in Vietnam, when the rifles first started having issues.

Most have no idea how to diagnose a malfunction, or what to look for to prevent issues. Maybe it has changed since I was in, but that is how it was when I was active duty....
(chopped)

Absolutely true...probably 60% of each squad are city boys that have never even
SEEN a rifle prior to Boot Camp! Lord knows most of 'em don't even have sense
enough to close their dust cover after firing/before moving...and then they
can't figure out why it jammed up until you crack it open and all the sand runs out...
At least it only happens ONCE...then they learn...

One would think that if someone was given something that can potentially save their life,
that one would actually learn as much as possible about that item & how it worked,
how to maintain it Properly for best function, and how to fix it fast if it malfunctions...
much of that which is taught in Boot & AIT...but only some of 'em retain it...
honestly seemed that most just learned enough to pass, then braintoot the info
right back out...

Of course the alternative is to turn into a total gun nut in the vein of Sgt Tackleberry
of the Police Academy movies...which really isn't that bad of a turn...at least the
gun nuts know how to deal with their rifles

[RC20]

Even the Mk27 isn't really much more reliable over there from the few first hand accounts I have read.

Thanks guys. The exchanges I have had were with grunts who took their guns seriously and what they went through to keep them functioning.

Lost track of them so don't know what branch they were with.

None mentioned people who did not maintain their guns, that is new and a head scratcher. Maybe I am nuts, but give me a new gun and I go through the details of how it should be taken care of.

The magazines had not come up, I can see that.

Can you take your own? When I was shooting 5.56 the Pmags were so impressive. I didn't bother to try any others. Metal ones were for backup only.