Are Dupont 4064 and IMR 4064 the same?

NorCal Hal · August 10, 2009, 06:38 PM

I have a red steel / tin 16 oz can of Dupont # 4064 "Dupont Improved Military Rifle Powder". Is this the same as the IMR 4064 power available today? I assume the IMR stands for Improved Military Rifle and somewhere along the way the abreviation took over.

oneounceload · August 10, 2009, 06:47 PM

Dupont was the original powder maker.

Here's the history of the company:

http://www.imrpowder.com/history.html

From that:

Quote:

Hodgdon Powder Company purchased IMR® Powder Company in October 2003. Hodgdon Powder Company offices are located at 6231 Robinson in Overland Park, Kansas. IMR powders continue to be manufactured to the same exacting performance criteria and quality assurance standards that shooters have come to expect.

**Unclenick** · August 10, 2009, 06:50 PM

The current version will still be fairly close to the old DuPont if it is in good condition? Watch out for acid smell (not to be confused with ethyl ether smell that is normal outgassing) and red dust either on the powder or that appears on the bottom of a piece of paper if you shake it with some of the powder on it. You want to knock any current load down 10% and work it back up.

NorCal Hal · August 10, 2009, 06:57 PM

Thank you that was an interesting history. So, I guess I can ASSUME the powders are the same ??? I wonder how old this red and white can of powder is ? The article says they started using "IMR" in 1920's.

UncleNick's response came in while I was slowly pecking away. The can is like new, the powder dry and loose and no unusual smell.i

Slamfire · August 10, 2009, 08:19 PM

Got any internal rust to the can?

Gun 4 Fun · August 10, 2009, 08:25 PM

The old and new versions are the exact same, with no more variation between them than you would find from one lot to another.

NorCal Hal · August 11, 2009, 02:00 PM

Nope no rust or other signs of aging...Thanks for all the responses.

oneounceload · August 11, 2009, 03:19 PM

Start with loads on the low side and look for signs of pressure as you slowly work up. Then, you can probably sell the can to a collector depending on its age

NorCal Hal · August 11, 2009, 11:17 PM

I DEFINATELY need to back off a little. I loaded some 30-06 with 52.5 grains, which is the maximum load and I had some barn burners. Firing 165 gr Nosler partitions. Not bad group at 200 yds but significant recoil and distinctive crack sound and a ten shot average of 3,018 FPS.... I am going to try 51.0, 51.5, and maybe 52.0 and see how they do. I think I need to keep it below 2950-2975.

The strange thing is that I loaded and fired five 52.5 loads last week and got a respectable 2916 FPS and none of the different recoil & sound.

I double weight all my charges. Pick the tray / ladle up off the scale each time to verify it zero's and that I get the same weight when I place the tray / ladle back on the scale and I am still not sure I don't get different weights.

I am using an RCBS digital scale that measures to the tenth of a grain and I zero and calibrated it be each use.

I look for case cracks along the neck and base. Check the primer. What else should I look for. My rifle is a ten year old Winchester model 70 in like new condition. Is there anything on the rifle itself I should be looking for regarding overpresure?

Longdayjake · August 11, 2009, 11:56 PM

I have noticed that my guns dont like max loads of 4064. First time I loaded my .25-06 that way I had 6 split necks after the first firing. I have since started low and worked up from there.

NorCal Hal · August 12, 2009, 12:26 AM

Longdayjake - when you say started "LOW" how much below max to you start? A lot of people say 10% but 10% of 52.5 gr would be 5.2 gr which means 47.3 gr which seems like a lots of load to work back to what should be a good recipe.

I would seem to me that 5% or 2.6 gr is a significant decrease...

Comments?

darkgael · August 12, 2009, 05:51 AM

NorCal: What load book did you use? I ask because 52.5 grains just seemed too much powder when I read it. The Hodgdon manual lists 52.5 as a max load but I just looked in the Lyman, Sierra, Speer, Nosler, and Hornady manuals. Lyman lists a max load of 52 grains of 4064 for a 165 grain bullet. ALL the other manuals are at 50 grains or less (Sierra is at 48 and change) for a max load.

Quote:

I would seem to me that 5% or 2.6 gr is a significant decrease..

That 2.6 grain decrease still leaves you at what four different data sets rate as a max load.
What do your primers look like? Is the bolt hard to open?
Pete

Longdayjake · August 12, 2009, 10:45 AM

As was stated before, several places list max a little differently. I have started looking for the lowest max load to base what I go off when starting a new load. I take that max and drop it 1 or 2 grains and see if that works for me. Also, I am one of those strange guys that doesn't care if his bullets go 3500 fps when he can get ones that go 3300 fps to hit in the same hole every time. (speeds from .25-06 loads)

NorCal Hal · August 12, 2009, 06:44 PM

Primers look OK, but them I'm not EACTLY sure what I should be looking for. Bolt opens fine. The manual I used had 52.5 as the max load. I also saw other publications with lower maximums.

I guess I am hung up on equating velocity with energy on target. Energy (when properly absorbed) = shock. I agree that a slower, but more accurate, load would be better but at this point I was looking for the best five shot group at the HIGHEST velocity.

Harold

August 10, 2009, 06:38 PM	#1
NorCal Hal Member Join Date: July 29, 2009 Posts: 90	Are Dupont 4064 and IMR 4064 the same? I have a red steel / tin 16 oz can of Dupont # 4064 "Dupont Improved Military Rifle Powder". Is this the same as the IMR 4064 power available today? I assume the IMR stands for Improved Military Rifle and somewhere along the way the abreviation took over.

August 10, 2009, 06:50 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The current version will still be fairly close to the old DuPont if it is in good condition? Watch out for acid smell (not to be confused with ethyl ether smell that is normal outgassing) and red dust either on the powder or that appears on the bottom of a piece of paper if you shake it with some of the powder on it. You want to knock any current load down 10% and work it back up. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 10, 2009, 08:25 PM	#6
Gun 4 Fun Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2008 Posts: 956	The old and new versions are the exact same, with no more variation between them than you would find from one lot to another. __________________ S&WCA member NRA member NAHC Life member

August 10, 2009, 06:57 PM	#4
NorCal Hal Member Join Date: July 29, 2009 Posts: 90	Thank you that was an interesting history. So, I guess I can ASSUME the powders are the same ??? I wonder how old this red and white can of powder is ? The article says they started using "IMR" in 1920's. UncleNick's response came in while I was slowly pecking away. The can is like new, the powder dry and loose and no unusual smell.i

August 10, 2009, 08:19 PM	#5
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Got any internal rust to the can?

August 11, 2009, 02:00 PM	#7
NorCal Hal Member Join Date: July 29, 2009 Posts: 90	Nope no rust or other signs of aging...Thanks for all the responses.

August 11, 2009, 03:19 PM	#8
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Start with loads on the low side and look for signs of pressure as you slowly work up. Then, you can probably sell the can to a collector depending on its age

August 11, 2009, 11:17 PM	#9
NorCal Hal Member Join Date: July 29, 2009 Posts: 90	I DEFINATELY need to back off a little. I loaded some 30-06 with 52.5 grains, which is the maximum load and I had some barn burners. Firing 165 gr Nosler partitions. Not bad group at 200 yds but significant recoil and distinctive crack sound and a ten shot average of 3,018 FPS.... I am going to try 51.0, 51.5, and maybe 52.0 and see how they do. I think I need to keep it below 2950-2975. The strange thing is that I loaded and fired five 52.5 loads last week and got a respectable 2916 FPS and none of the different recoil & sound. I double weight all my charges. Pick the tray / ladle up off the scale each time to verify it zero's and that I get the same weight when I place the tray / ladle back on the scale and I am still not sure I don't get different weights. I am using an RCBS digital scale that measures to the tenth of a grain and I zero and calibrated it be each use. I look for case cracks along the neck and base. Check the primer. What else should I look for. My rifle is a ten year old Winchester model 70 in like new condition. Is there anything on the rifle itself I should be looking for regarding overpresure?

August 11, 2009, 11:56 PM	#10
Longdayjake Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2009 Posts: 619	I have noticed that my guns dont like max loads of 4064. First time I loaded my .25-06 that way I had 6 split necks after the first firing. I have since started low and worked up from there.

August 12, 2009, 12:26 AM	#11
NorCal Hal Member Join Date: July 29, 2009 Posts: 90	Longdayjake - when you say started "LOW" how much below max to you start? A lot of people say 10% but 10% of 52.5 gr would be 5.2 gr which means 47.3 gr which seems like a lots of load to work back to what should be a good recipe. I would seem to me that 5% or 2.6 gr is a significant decrease... Comments?

August 12, 2009, 10:45 AM	#13
Longdayjake Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2009 Posts: 619	As was stated before, several places list max a little differently. I have started looking for the lowest max load to base what I go off when starting a new load. I take that max and drop it 1 or 2 grains and see if that works for me. Also, I am one of those strange guys that doesn't care if his bullets go 3500 fps when he can get ones that go 3300 fps to hit in the same hole every time. (speeds from .25-06 loads)

August 12, 2009, 06:44 PM	#14
NorCal Hal Member Join Date: July 29, 2009 Posts: 90	Primers look OK, but them I'm not EACTLY sure what I should be looking for. Bolt opens fine. The manual I used had 52.5 as the max load. I also saw other publications with lower maximums. I guess I am hung up on equating velocity with energy on target. Energy (when properly absorbed) = shock. I agree that a slower, but more accurate, load would be better but at this point I was looking for the best five shot group at the HIGHEST velocity. Harold