Do you really feel safe?

[Hayley]

"Do you really feel safe?"

Ironically, this sort of comment, and what follows it, indicates that one is pretty well wrapped-up in a security blanket.

[BobK]

Have'nt we gone over this enough already?!

[Lurper]

Do I really feel safe? Yes I do (actually 99% of the time I feel safe even without a firearm close by). Why even ask your question? Right from the beginning you state you don't believe what's probably the most recited answers. Carry what you are comfortable with and don't worry about what and why others may carry something different. It's obvious you aren't looking to do like others.

Yeah, "safe" was not a good choice of word - comfortable or confident would have been better.
I stated the reasons that I dismissed the most often recited reasons with what I thought was valid logic. And no, I'm not looking to do like others, but I do like looking at what others do and why. I was hoping to hear some new reasons.
When I look at it objectively, it almost seems like some people are placing more value on how much the gun weighs, etc. than on its effectiveness in saving their life. I want to know how they arrived at that decision and why.

Less powerful than the 9mm . . . Must mean the .45acp is out of the question then seeing that it has less power than the 9mm.

I did it now!

Now you're just trying to stir things up. But, last time I checked according to the tests, the .45 acp was more powerful than the 9mm, but the point is moot. They both fall into the acceptable category accorcding to the tests.

[Tokamak]

Quote:

I don't know about 6, that would be pushing my luck. But I'm pretty sure I can handle one or two in my chest. I mean, .32 is WAY below the "accepted" power factor so I should be ok.

After that would you mind taking one or 2 from my sub standard .380. You should be able to shake that off, too.

[bennnn]

.32 is WAY below the "accepted" power factor so I should be ok.

Way below,, but still unacceptable for this pound of flesh.......

some of us like .9mm
some of us like .45acp

some of us carry the "unacceptable's" I even considered a .380 one time..
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=233114

[JohnKSa]

Regarding "feeling safe".

Thought about this for awhile and have concluded that I carry more because I don't want to be unprepared than because it makes me feel safe.

There is a little voice that whispers in my ear while I tie my shoes, getting ready to leave the house. It says: "If you don't carry, today will be the day you could have made a difference." So I drop a spare mag in my pocket and put on my holster.

[Donovan655]

you could make the same argument that people who carry less than a .50 are using less than effective caliber. it becomes a slippery slope argument until you convince yourself the only really effective caliber is a nuclear weapon.

[Sturmgewehre]

As far as knowledge and experience go, I'll make you a deal. You post your shooting resume and I'll post mine. If your level of skill, training, experience and achievement exceed mine, I'll kiss you a$$ in the town square at noon and give you an hour to attract a crowd. I'll also refer any question I have about firearms from everyone to you as the foremost expert I know. How's that?

LOL. It looks like someone is dying to try and impress us with their "shooting resume". No one here could possibly know as much as him, I mean, he has his "shooting resume" prepared and everything!

Please, by all means, knock yourself out. Impress me.

[Sturmgewehre]

I would say that it depends on the range,,, C'mon,,, when you say .30 cal,, I read rifle.....

You can read anything you like, but that doesn't change the fact I'm talking about handgun calibers with a bore diameter in their 30's (9mm, .357 and .38 Special which we're talking about here). I didn't care to type 9mm, 357 and 38 Special again in my post, so I shortened it to "30 cal".

I'm sorry this offended you.

Or, perhaps you want to deny they're .30 caliber?

[tlm225]

These type of threads always interest me. Those who stand on Thompson and Fackler and declare that X caliber and below are inadequate overlook the advancements in ammo design in the past few decades.

Lurper you may have some absolutely stunning qualifications. Unfortunately your profile tells me nothing and a declaration that other unnamed people can speak for you tells me no more.

Do I feel safe? Yep, most of the time even when I'm not armed. Then again the have been times when I didn't feel safe when I held an AR-15 or 12 gauge. Prepared yes, absolutely safe, no (I guess that's why I had them in my hands).

All calibers fail to stop the adversary at some time, there is no magic caliber or bullet. Choose the gun and caliber that fits your needs and threat level, practice with it and remain aware and decisive.

[RoyJackson]

I suggest you carry what you want...I'll carry what I want. It's not your place to determine what is "substandard" for another person.

Your comment about "substandard" calibers is ludicrous and, frankly, a little insulting.

I've carried .38's and 9 mm handgun, but I've no problem carrying a mouse gun (.32ACP Tomcat) and feel quite protected.

The intent of CCW is to provide protection and stop a fight. Stopping a fight may result in a death...or maybe not. Once that fight is stopped, one had better stop firing unless you want to be arrested for a pretty serious crime.

[waynedm]

last time I checked according to the tests, the .45 acp was more powerful than the 9mm

According to the tests I've seen and read the 9mm has more power than the .45acp.

HA!

[Powderman]

As far as knowledge and experience go, I'll make you a deal. You post your shooting resume and I'll post mine. If your level of skill, training, experience and achievement exceed mine, I'll kiss you a$$ in the town square at noon and give you an hour to attract a crowd. I'll also refer any question I have about firearms from everyone to you as the foremost expert I know. How's that?

Sir, I must say that each post I read of yours, and each thread that I see you post in, has me perplexed. You seem to always challenge everyone, and always tout your "qualifications".

I'd like to point something out...

If you ever take a look--a LONG look--at the people who post on TFL, you'll notice people with a lot of different levels of shooting experience.

The people that post on here are novices seeking honest advice; everyday joes and janes sharing experiences; home makers talking about their favorite defensive calibers.

There are also master gunsmiths who post, as well as those who are picking up a file for the first time.

There are also law enforcement personnel from all levels, from rookie to seasoned patrol supervisors, chiefs of police and supervisory personnel, as well as tactical ops, SRT/SWAT/ERT and others.

Finally, there are military personnel; veterans of all ages who have served; some who have faced down Germans or Japanese soldiers across M1 Garands; others who have seen the elephant in the tunnels and jungles of Viet Nam; still others who have fought against relentless jihad in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan. Heck, some are STILL over there--and post actively from their theaters of operation!

There is one thing that is noteworthy about the members of this board, though....

NO ONE I HAVE MET ON THIS SITE HAS EVER CROWED OR BOASTED ABOUT THEIR QUALIFICATIONS OR EXPERIENCES.

Except you.

And, you quote numbers that are almost beyond comprehension. You state that you have fired MILLIONS of rounds. Do you shoot every single day? Who pays for your ammunition? Do you reload, and if so, where do you find the time?

In light of all of this, to me, there is only one answer.

I'm calling you out.

I'll start.

I am 47 years old, born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. I enlisted in the US Army in 1977, serving three years as an Infantryman, and twelve years in Air Defense Artillery. Along the way, I was a unit armorer three times.

I had the great good fortune and opportunities to work on ranges many times, in different capacities; thus, I got to play and fire up a LOT of ammunition, light off an awful lot of pyro, and blow things up in training. I also got some extracurricular training from some good folks from the SF groups and the Ranger Battalion where I was stationed for the longest amount of time (Ft. Lewis, WA).

I walked live patrols on the DMZ in the Republic of Korea with B Company, 1st Bn 31st Infantry Regiment (Bearcats!), and frequently saw North Koreans but never engaged any.

While in the Service, I took up gunsmithing on the side, and still do a bit today--on my own guns. Saves money.

After I left the Service, I started in the Gaming industry, first in Surveillance, and now as a Gaming Enforcement Agent.

I also started in police work in 1997; I am now a Level 1 Reserve Officer with the Puyallup Tribal Police. I am also their assistant Armorer and precision rifleman (sniper).

I compete regularly in Bullseye competition, and am currently rated Expert in outdoor pistol (hopefully, will make Master within the month).

I currently shoot at least twice a week; this has helped me ace my Department's qualifications 11 times in a row; I hold the Distinguished Master qual badge from my Department.

So there's mine. I can, and will submit to the staff, admins and owner of this board a copy of my DD214, and other certifications upon request.

Now it's your turn.

Please post your curriculum vitae that you are so quick to brag about.

On, and by the way--

You have posted that you are able to DRAW, from your holster, and shoot an assailant who is already covering you with a drawn gun. Here's a challenge.

Let's arrange a meeting. We will set up two full sized silhouettes, at a range of 5 to 7 yards. You pick the pistol and the holster you will use. I will use my Colt Enhanced service pistol; drawn and aimed at the silhouette.

In the interest of safety, you will hold a small stick--very thin, with a piece of paper on it--in your firing hand, out where I can see it.

Whenever you are ready, go for your weapon. When I see the paper drop, I'll start shooting.

Your job is to shoot your silhouette before I can shoot mine.

I guarantee that I will put a minimum of four rounds in my silhouette before you fire. Two of those rounds will impact my silhouette before you even clear your holster.

And, no wimpy minimum power factor ammo, either. I will load with 230 grain Federal HydraShok, .45 ACP.

How about it? Let's see some of that blazing mastery you talk about so much.

Sincerely,

Powderman

[Lurper]

Why do you guys insist on attacking me about the calibers? I am NOT the one who said they are substandard. The world's foremost experts in ballistics (Fackler, FBI, etc.) are the ones who say that. Whether I agree or not doesn't matter. And, how do you arrive at the conclusion that I care about what other people carry? This is a free country, you have the right to carry what you want and the responsibility for the consequences. It's all about choice. Hell, I halfway expected someone to say: "I think those tests are crap, my .32 is just fine for me." But, noone did. Instead several people used the Democrat approach: if you don't like the message, attack the messenger.
Thanks to those of you who provided thoughtful responses (humorous ones too).

StG: I have no need to impress anyone, least of all you. You are the one who went down this path by saying that I have a "lack of knowledge" and accusing me of being an internet ninja. I simply offered a counter to that argument. When it comes to technique, I am a 1%er. Does that make me an expert? In my book (and just about everyone else's) it does. Unfortunately, there is no way to say that without sounding like an arrogant pr*ck.
I don't post my background because sometimes my personal opinion is very different than my professional opinion and certain people deserve only my professional opinion. This isn't the first time this has come up and probably won't be the last. Sure, I could go and retrieve all of the posts in the past where someone has checked me out, but I won't. If it means that much to you, knock yourself out.

tlm: Good point. Especially vis-a-vis Hatcher/Thompson. I belive Fackler and the FBI both have adusted the results to accomodate changes in bullet design (I know some of the .32 cal bullets improved quite a bit).
I know there is no magic bullet. But the question makes no difference if it is not framed within the context of the tests mentioned.

RJ: Sorry you are offended, read the first paragraph above. It's not about what I think people should carry. I never used terms like "mouse gun", etc. I didn't determine that they were substandard calibers, the world's foremost experts on ballistics did based on historical data, statistics, evidence.

Wayne: You're just trying to stir things up - again. Remember it's based on Fackler, the FBI and Hatcher/Thompson, not Billy Bob's gun emporium test.

[Sturmgewehre]

Great post Powderman.

I can't wait to read master pistolsmith, and combat master Lurper's response.

[HiltonFarmer]

Obviously, I am biased - I have always carried a 1911, Officer's acp, or L frame S&W. I just want to understand the rationale behind your decision.

OK then. I read some of your data. Makes no difference to me. The rationale behind my decision for purchasing a sidearm is price, looks and how it feels in my hand. If I shoot someone - I know it will hurt and chances are - the attack will stop.

Peace out.

HiltonFarmer

[Lurper]

Very impressive PM. I will take your challange. But, right now I am going to climb a mountain (albeit not an incredibly huge one).
I agree with many of your contentions about other people on this board. What I don't agree with (and you didn't say this) is some person who owns a gun and shoots maybe 100 rounds a week trying to give "expert" advice to a novice. In my book, that is not right. Unfortunately, there is no way to point out that one is an expert without sounding like one is pounding their chest.

Yes, when I was actively competing I shot every single day (500 rounds) without fail. I had a range in my backyard in VA. Todd Jarret used to come over and practice with me. In fact, we traveled and shot together for several years. When I moved to AZ, I didn't have a range in my yard so my round count dropped to about 1500/week - except when I was director of leagues and competitions at Shooter's World which at the time was a brand new state of the art facility. Even held 2 AZ championships there. Oh, and those rounds are just through my competition guns, not my NFA (class 3) or any other guns.

I can save you the trouble of having to set up your test: I can film the exact technique which you find incomprehensible, in fact I have linked some films in prevous posts which will give you an idea of what is possible. I was one of the first shooters in USPSA to make Master class back when the classification system was implemented. It is quite easy to teach someone to get sub 1 second hits from the holster at 10 yards or less despite what you may think.
But, enough. I am off to Four Peaks.

[Sturmgewehre]

Just as soon as Lurper returns from scaling Mt. Everest, he'll share the rest of his adventures with us.

I can't wait!

Let's see what other names Lurper drops on his return.

Stay tuned!

P.S. Why do Lurpers posts bare a striking resemblance to those once offered up by the infamous "Gunkid"?

[JR47]

Lurper, I didn't mean to suggest that things don't happen beyond our control. However, if they've happened six or seven times, then tactical errors have been made, or perhaps strategic errors. Unless those people are involved in LE, or similiar agressive careers, the odds against even one personal defense incident are huge.

This is leaving the arena of information sharing, and heading into personal attacks. The thread has attracted the inevitable attention of the drive-by drivelers.

I applaud your decision to only carry major power weaponry, regardless of comfort. You obviously have made the decision that your dress-code will be designed to allow this. That's great for you.

I, on the other hand, and many other posters here, have also arrived at the minimum level of protection required to make us secure in our daily lives. Different experiences create different standards. I was in Fire/EMS for 35+ years. My home has more in the way of medical supplies than most. I also have 300' of 1.5" hose, and a nozzle located exteriorly. The hydrant is 120' away. My wife is also Fire/EMS. We can put that into operation in less than two minutes. Well before the arrival of the local department. I am also qualified to operate their pumps, so a short-handed response would be quickly solved. Now, with my experience as both a paramedic and firefighter/fire officer, I could expect everyone to be able to do this, as well. It would make the neighborhood a much safer place to live. I learned long ago, though, that not everyone is that interested in their ultimate safety, in that facet of it, anyways.

To me, your declarations aren't much different. You have chosen one facet of survival to excel at, and to formulate opinions on. The fact that you consider Major Power calibers to be the only sufficient ones is akin to my deciding that everyone should be capable of interior firefighting, and drug-intervention in cardiac and trauma cases. Think of the smaller weapons as household first aid kits and fire extinguishers. Most people are comfortable, based on experience, with a combination of the two. Could they do better? Of course, an Engine can be had for under $150,000. However, their current combination will handle their perceived needs, and their skill levels. Handguns aren't much different in these cases. Trust me, a heart attack is just as lethal as being shot. Being trapped in your burning home, or standing outside with a loved one in the flaming place, can easily be as devastating as failing to defend them successfully. Not everyone is a Fire Officer IV, or better. Not everyone is an IDPA Master grade shooter, either.

You asked why, that's my answer.

[HiltonFarmer]

JR47

Unless those people are involved in LE, or similiar agressive careers,

I prefer to use the term assertive rather than aggressive. Makes LEOs sound like gang busters rather than professionals.

HiltonFarmer

[Powderman]

I was one of the first shooters in USPSA to make Master class back when the classification system was implemented.

USPSA, eh?

Don't get me wrong....I have shot side by side with some IPSC/USPSA competitors, and they are impressive indeed. I have saved a clip of Travis Tomasie, and I'm still trying to do magazine changes as well as he can. I usually end up banging up my hand, and launching magazines across the room.

I can film the exact technique which you find incomprehensible,

With respect, no you can't. Why?

Because you won't be wearing your speed rig and staggered mag pouch on the street. You won't have a full blown race gun in 9x21, 9x23 or .38 Super, with the Schuemann hybrid barrel and 6 port comp, or a Leupold/Gilmore big dot.

And you won't be playing for points, either. You'll be playing and betting your LIFE.

You will be betting that you can draw from concealment and fire telling hits that will cause an assailant to drop his weapon and cease hostile intent BEFORE he puts a few somewhere in your body.

I don't have any fancy comp holsters. Nor do I have any race guns anymore. I don't shoot IPSC, USPSA or IDPA--I don't have the time. My Colt isn't fancy--it has a BMCS-2 rear and a dovetail front. The bluing is worn in a few places, and the rear sight blade is nicked. The grips are worn a bit, too.

But I can draw that Colt from a fully secured Level III Safariland 070 holster and crack off two rounds COM, followed by two rounds in the head in under 4 seconds. That's our minimum standard response for our Department, and it is taught by our CJTC. And, those two rounds will be in the X. Guaranteed. Distance is 5 yards.

My challenge still stands, just the way I wrote it. No fancy holsters or guns. You must carry the same way you would on the street. And, you must put a round in your silhouette before I shoot. I guarantee that my silhouette will catch at least four COM hits before you get your first round off.

How about it?

[ckd]

I always feel safe, regardless of what limitations to my CCW are. I am aware, train regularly with an without firearms and know my advesary expects me to be a sheeple.

Caliber of the man is more important than that of the gun.

[Lurper]

JR: Well articulated and thought out answer. Let me reiterate one thing if I may. I'm not saying that major caliber guns are the only ones worth carrying (except for my personal choice), I am just framing the question in the context of Hatcher/Thompson, Fackler and FBI tests. Your point about skill level expectations of others is noted as well.
FWIW, 4 of the incidents were employment related. All of the remaining 3 were forced upon me. Twice someone has tried to force their way thru my front door, the last one was someone trying to jump one of my friends. S.A. couldn't have avoided it with the possible exception of the last one. I do wholeheartedly agree however that situational awareness is most important and avoidance when possible is the best course.

I can accept that rationale, it is similar to saying "yes, I realize they are less than ideal, but I am willing to live with that because the chances of ever needing it are miniscule."

I also agree that we have passed into the personal attack zone. My apologies for feeding the situation.

HF: That is reasoned rationale as well.
No one's rationale has to meet my approval, I just thought it would be interesting to see. Part of the reason I carry my 1911's is because I am so familiar with them. Part of it is because I want to tip the odds in my favor.

ckd: Good reasoning, do you think all of them expect you to be sheeple?
I always figured that if someone were a professional or had already made the decision to kill you, they would just walk up behind you and cap your a$$. I also assume (and you know what they say about that) that since they didn't shoot me right off the bat, that means that they probably didn't intend to. However, I am aware of several people who have been injured or killed after complying.

[.22 shooter]

i always thought that its not how big a gun you carry,but where you place your shot. but lets hope it will never come to that.

[mordis]

Lurper i had a nasty responce all wrote up for you, involving sheep and middle fingers, but ill leave that out. Im not a expert, but with my sw m15-3 .38 wich i regularly carry for ccw, i have been able to put all 6 rounds in a nice hole about a 1.5" in size. I feel perfectly comfortable carrying it. I dont think those tests you keep spouting off about are relevent. they were made during a time when bullet tech sucked. Back then bigger was better. Not Now, now we have better bullet construction and better powder.

Case in point the speer gold dot short barrel .38spc +p is made for snubbies, will penetrate up to 13" after passing through heavy clothing, all the while expanding to well over .4 in diamater. If the .38 was good enough for alot of cops for almost half a century and for some time with the fbi then its not a substandard round, nor is it a poor manstopper. I thin k you need to go talk to a emergency room doctor and ask him what he thinks about bullet size and shot placement. I think youll find that bullet place ment is far more important then bullet size.

Of course youll completely dismiss my assertions becuause i have only shot about 30,000 rounds of ammo my whole life, am not a leo, not a doctor nor have i shot anyone. So i can pretty much count on my post being torn apart and denegraded.

What it boils down to is this, carry what makes you, the individual feel comfortable and safe. Not what some interweb self proclaimed commando who says he has fired off more then 3million rounds, but with no documented proof of doing such.

the .38 never has been and never will be a sup par manstopper.