Working on a Wildcat...Any Input?

Christchild · December 6, 2009, 11:32 AM

While the .260 Rem. and 7mm-08 Rem. are both very effective cartridges, I've "drawn up" the dimensions for what I'm calling the ".27 Tyler" (my son's name is David Tyler). Based on the 7mm-08 case (.308 Win., essentially) with a few modifications of my own, this will allow someone like me who loads .270 Win. to use the same bullets, powder (and some powder a bit faster than AA4350, like AA2700), primers and shellholder that's used for .270 Win...

I'll be using 7mm-08 brass since that'll only be necking down 0.007", BUT, the more "major" change will be the Shoulder Angle. Where the shoulder starts on the 7mm-08 is where the shoulder will start on the Wildcat, but the Shoulder Angle will be 35 degrees, as opposed to the 20 degree shoulder of the 7mm-08.

I'll be using a rifle chambered in either .308 Win. or 7mm-08 Rem. so the action (of course) is right for the case and the magazine conforms to Cartridge Dimensions, I'll just rebarrel/rechamber for the Wildcat.

My main "concern" is, changing the shoulder angle this much, will the Overall Case Length lengthen or shorten? If it lengthens, no problem, I'll just trim back to 2.025"... But if the case/case neck shortens, I'd want to make sure the chamber is cut correctly to accomodate the shorter case neck length...

I'd like a fair amount of case neck length, similar to the .270 Win., so there's more case neck "available" to grip the bullet shank. I'm hoping to keep the case length 2.035" (max), but losing a little length (as a result of increasing the shoulder angle) would still be very acceptable, as there would still be more than enough case neck length. I've already sent my info/dimensions to Pacific Tool & Gauge for review and I received an email from them letting me know it's being reviewed. I can always shorten the case length/case neck length specs if need be, before they start cutting the Chamber Reamers/Cutters.

Any facts, opinions, criticism, experience and knowledge is Greatly Appreciated, Bro's!

Thank You All in Advance!

HiBC · December 6, 2009, 12:37 PM

As far as the cartridge design you have created,t sounds perfectly reasonable.
And,I think guns and shooting are a place a person ought to be free to explore preferences.
IMHO,return on investment is worthy of consideration.

Check prices on custom dies.Wild guess,$180 or so.That reamer,$120 or so?
I'm not knocking the .270 cal,but the bullet mfg's have put more effort into 7mm and 6.5.Time you pay a smith and buy a bbl,$750 dollars buys a lot of bullets,and,don't forget,you have to make fireform loads.

Page 166 of PO Acley's Handbook for shooters vol 2 shows a .270/308 improved.You might look at a Redding or Huntington or RCBS listing of semi-custom dies,you will get some break.

If you are looking at a Mauser action you might consider the mauser case designs,one being a .257 Ackley necked up to.277,a variation of this is the .277 ICL Flying Saucer.They feed easier than .308 cases in a mauser.

Q? Long way around the barn,are you trying to build a special rifle for your son?

If he'll read Karamojo Bell's books about hunting in Africa,A 7x57 in a Mauser is pretty special.It has a long neck.,and you'll probably have at least $500 left to go hunting.

Christchild · December 6, 2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Q? Long way around the barn,are you trying to build a special rifle for your son?

Not necessarily wanting to build a complete custom rifle, more so a "semi-custom" like my Browning A-Bolt .270 Win. A good rifle to begin with but rebarreled. In the case of a Wildcat Cartridge, rechambered, as well. Maybe a Browning A-Bolt or X-Bolt, maybe an all stainless Savage, or something similar. I'm extremely pleased with my rifle, more so since it received the Douglas Air Gauge #4, I'd just need something much lighter for my little man. And I'd like to stay with the .270 cal so I can use the same bullets. I think "using the same bullets as Dad", using a rifle very similar to Dad's, would have a certain value to a youngster, You know?

I will definitely look into the .270/308 Improved. That's pretty much what I'm aiming for, but I didn't want to "step on anyone's toes" by utilizing a 40 degree shoulder in drawing up the Wildcat. If I can find something, such as what You've mentioned, I'd definitely rather go that way as long as I could get the brass to work right...

As far as the Case Neck Length, and wanting to keep it fairly long... I like the length of the neck on .270 Win. because it offers alot of grip, and I feel (just my opinion) that extra neck length can help keep the bullet aligned, as long as everything else is straight. In the same sense, I don't like how short the neck is on the 25-06 Rem. It IS enough, I just think it should've been kept a little longer...

But special.....for my son.....definitely.

B78-22250 · December 6, 2009, 07:19 PM

Why not change your .270 to .280AI and set jr up with a 7-08AI.

Christchild · December 6, 2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Why not change your .270 to .280AI and set jr up with a 7-08AI.

'Cuz then I'd have to start from scratch with bullets, brass and dies...not to mention I'd have to RE-rebarrel my .270... all THAT would truly be expensive...

impalacustom · December 7, 2009, 02:12 AM

If your starting the shoulder in the same place as the other but increasing the angle you will end up with a longer neck, but the case length will stay the same. If you were wanting to keep from trimming the necks to length you could bump the sholder forward a little and keep the sharper angled neck and then end up with a neck that is the same length as the 270. The cartride length will stay the same as the parent no matter what you do to the shoulder angle, only the neck will grow or shrink, depending on the angle and where the shoulder starts.

What you need to do is talk to Dave Kiff at PTG and tell him what your doing and see if he has made a reamer for it and get the number and take a look at the reamer and see if it's what you want.

Custom dies are not cheap at all, I just had some made from Hornady and they will run you about $260.

Another option is to take a look at the 270 Gibbs, which is almost exactly what you are talking about. It is a 270 with a 35 degree shoulder and a max length of 2.5 inches with a .250 neck. It will go right at 3,300 fps with a 130gr bullet. Gibbs used a 30-06 case though.

Contact Roy Romain at Romain's Custom Guns 1-814-265-1948, he has all of the Gibbs reamers and could help you too.

w748 · December 7, 2009, 02:40 AM

There is a .270/.308 improved in Vol #2 of P.O. Ackleys handbook ; also a bit of load data in Vol#1. No mention of sholder angle.
My experience with improved cartriges is the case shortens during fireforming , not sure all would be the same , but , 7 TCU , .250-3000AI , .30-30AI and .35 Whelen AI all do.

Christchild · December 7, 2009, 11:25 PM

Well, after MUCH looking/researching/comparing Dollars to Sense (yes, sense, not cents

)...

It would take ALOT of money, ALOT of work/time, with not enough gain, IMHO, to pursue a Wildcat...when I'm no Bill Gates...

I even looked around at another uncommon, seemingly effective but obsolete cartridge, the .25 Remington, which You CAN get brass for, but at $2 per brass case, and $80-$90 per Die, plus an Oddball .419" CaseHead which would require a matching Oddball BoltHead...still not really worth it.

I think I'm going to go the "easy" route and utilize the vast effectiveness of an already existing, readily available, Youth-Friendly cartridge...the .243 Winchester. The money saved on dies, brass, rechambering, Custom-This and Custom-That, will buy a Trainload of components many times over, with money to spare.

Thank You, Fella's, for Your Input on this Short Lived subject. Your posts on this Thread lead me to much research, and in turn, put my brain back where it should be... On the bench, at the range and in the field.

Thank You All! Merry Christmas!!!

HiBC · December 8, 2009, 02:26 PM

Nothing wrong with having a fertile imagination!

I do think a standard,off the shelf ,cartridge is a wise choice for a starter cartridge for a new shooter.Wally-world ammo might make the difference between going shooting and staying home for lack of loads.The money you save will allow you to get him a top quality scope.Cheap ,short eye relief scopes hurt new shooters).

Merry Christmas,back at you.

Scorch · December 8, 2009, 03:08 PM

Sounds like you are trying to re-invent the 270 IHMSA or 270 Savage, both wildcats based on the 300 Savage case.

Christchild · December 8, 2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

The money you save will allow you to get him a top quality scope. Cheap ,short eye relief scopes hurt new shooters)

Roger! I'm thinkin' Nikon Monarch 3-12x42mm BDC. The rifle, I'm kind of undecided, but I know what I'm leaning towards...... Fine Quality and Lightweight... I want it stainless, fairly lightweight, 22" barrel (maybe 20" if I found the right one), popular enough to find parts and "accessories" for and with some selection, good quality (longevity, durability, accuracy)...not to mention Good Looking. Browning is #1 on my list, with Savage being #2.

When the time comes, I'm thinkin' Browning A-Bolt Mountain Ti ($2k) .243 Win...

It IS pricey, but God willing, we've got plenty time to work on it. The mentioned A-Bolt is 5 lbs. 8 oz. without a scope, I'll just need to have the Length-of-Pull modified. I think that'll be special enough to get him started with Centerfire Rifle.

I HAVE thought about a Ruger M77 Hawkeye LC, though... I like that little rifle.

radom · December 10, 2009, 06:17 AM

If you look around a bit I think you will find that someone did that 50-60 years ago and with any shoulder angle you may dream of.

Christchild · December 10, 2009, 11:58 AM

Radom,

I've thought about this idea quite a bit, over the last several years, and always figured there HAD to be someone who did this before, but why didn't it stick? The .243 Win., .260 Rem., 7mm-08 Rem. and .308 Win. all made it, but why not the same case with a .277" bullet???

It wouldn't "fill a niche", by any means, but many of the commercial cartridges we have today don't much fill any niche, either. I'm a fan of the .270 Win., .243 Win. and 7mm-08...all very fine cartridges... One of the thoughts/concerns in my mind about the .270/308 have been, was it INaccurate? Just not a good enough balance to produce accuracy?

You can bet Your finest rifle, that if I had the funds I'd have a rifle chambered in it!

I'm just convinced, without seeing any published ballistics, that the .270/308 would be a hot little cartridge......and accurate. I'd have to prove it to myself to believe otherwise.

I'm only 31 years young, so I've got time (GOD Willing).

Jim Watson · December 10, 2009, 12:17 PM

It is hard to trace the logic of the manufacturers when they come out with stuff... or don't. I would not ask why there is not a regular .270/308 but rather why did Winchester originally look at the 7x64 Brenneke, conclude they wanted something of the sort, but change the bullet diameter just a smidgen? It could just as easily have been the .280 Winchester with a .284" bullet as a .270 Win with .277" bullet; a diameter not previously used except by the obscure 6.8mm Chinese Mauser.

December 8, 2009, 03:08 PM	#10
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,249	Sounds like you are trying to re-invent the 270 IHMSA or 270 Savage, both wildcats based on the 300 Savage case. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

December 6, 2009, 11:32 AM	#1
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	Working on a Wildcat...Any Input? While the .260 Rem. and 7mm-08 Rem. are both very effective cartridges, I've "drawn up" the dimensions for what I'm calling the ".27 Tyler" (my son's name is David Tyler). Based on the 7mm-08 case (.308 Win., essentially) with a few modifications of my own, this will allow someone like me who loads .270 Win. to use the same bullets, powder (and some powder a bit faster than AA4350, like AA2700), primers and shellholder that's used for .270 Win... I'll be using 7mm-08 brass since that'll only be necking down 0.007", BUT, the more "major" change will be the Shoulder Angle. Where the shoulder starts on the 7mm-08 is where the shoulder will start on the Wildcat, but the Shoulder Angle will be 35 degrees, as opposed to the 20 degree shoulder of the 7mm-08. I'll be using a rifle chambered in either .308 Win. or 7mm-08 Rem. so the action (of course) is right for the case and the magazine conforms to Cartridge Dimensions, I'll just rebarrel/rechamber for the Wildcat. My main "concern" is, changing the shoulder angle this much, will the Overall Case Length lengthen or shorten? If it lengthens, no problem, I'll just trim back to 2.025"... But if the case/case neck shortens, I'd want to make sure the chamber is cut correctly to accomodate the shorter case neck length... I'd like a fair amount of case neck length, similar to the .270 Win., so there's more case neck "available" to grip the bullet shank. I'm hoping to keep the case length 2.035" (max), but losing a little length (as a result of increasing the shoulder angle) would still be very acceptable, as there would still be more than enough case neck length. I've already sent my info/dimensions to Pacific Tool & Gauge for review and I received an email from them letting me know it's being reviewed. I can always shorten the case length/case neck length specs if need be, before they start cutting the Chamber Reamers/Cutters. Any facts, opinions, criticism, experience and knowledge is Greatly Appreciated, Bro's! Thank You All in Advance!

December 6, 2009, 12:37 PM	#2
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	As far as the cartridge design you have created,t sounds perfectly reasonable. And,I think guns and shooting are a place a person ought to be free to explore preferences. IMHO,return on investment is worthy of consideration. Check prices on custom dies.Wild guess,$180 or so.That reamer,$120 or so? I'm not knocking the .270 cal,but the bullet mfg's have put more effort into 7mm and 6.5.Time you pay a smith and buy a bbl,$750 dollars buys a lot of bullets,and,don't forget,you have to make fireform loads. Page 166 of PO Acley's Handbook for shooters vol 2 shows a .270/308 improved.You might look at a Redding or Huntington or RCBS listing of semi-custom dies,you will get some break. If you are looking at a Mauser action you might consider the mauser case designs,one being a .257 Ackley necked up to.277,a variation of this is the .277 ICL Flying Saucer.They feed easier than .308 cases in a mauser. Q? Long way around the barn,are you trying to build a special rifle for your son? If he'll read Karamojo Bell's books about hunting in Africa,A 7x57 in a Mauser is pretty special.It has a long neck.,and you'll probably have at least $500 left to go hunting.

December 6, 2009, 07:19 PM	#4
B78-22250 Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Location: Eden NC Posts: 56	wildcat Why not change your .270 to .280AI and set jr up with a 7-08AI.

December 7, 2009, 02:12 AM	#6
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	If your starting the shoulder in the same place as the other but increasing the angle you will end up with a longer neck, but the case length will stay the same. If you were wanting to keep from trimming the necks to length you could bump the sholder forward a little and keep the sharper angled neck and then end up with a neck that is the same length as the 270. The cartride length will stay the same as the parent no matter what you do to the shoulder angle, only the neck will grow or shrink, depending on the angle and where the shoulder starts. What you need to do is talk to Dave Kiff at PTG and tell him what your doing and see if he has made a reamer for it and get the number and take a look at the reamer and see if it's what you want. Custom dies are not cheap at all, I just had some made from Hornady and they will run you about $260. Another option is to take a look at the 270 Gibbs, which is almost exactly what you are talking about. It is a 270 with a 35 degree shoulder and a max length of 2.5 inches with a .250 neck. It will go right at 3,300 fps with a 130gr bullet. Gibbs used a 30-06 case though. Contact Roy Romain at Romain's Custom Guns 1-814-265-1948, he has all of the Gibbs reamers and could help you too.

December 7, 2009, 02:40 AM	#7
w748 Member Join Date: February 19, 2008 Location: High in the Rockies Posts: 89	There is a .270/.308 improved in Vol #2 of P.O. Ackleys handbook ; also a bit of load data in Vol#1. No mention of sholder angle. My experience with improved cartriges is the case shortens during fireforming , not sure all would be the same , but , 7 TCU , .250-3000AI , .30-30AI and .35 Whelen AI all do.

December 7, 2009, 11:25 PM	#8
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	Well, after MUCH looking/researching/comparing Dollars to Sense (yes, sense, not cents )... It would take ALOT of money, ALOT of work/time, with not enough gain, IMHO, to pursue a Wildcat...when I'm no Bill Gates... I even looked around at another uncommon, seemingly effective but obsolete cartridge, the .25 Remington, which You CAN get brass for, but at $2 per brass case, and $80-$90 per Die, plus an Oddball .419" CaseHead which would require a matching Oddball BoltHead...still not really worth it. I think I'm going to go the "easy" route and utilize the vast effectiveness of an already existing, readily available, Youth-Friendly cartridge...the .243 Winchester. The money saved on dies, brass, rechambering, Custom-This and Custom-That, will buy a Trainload of components many times over, with money to spare. Thank You, Fella's, for Your Input on this Short Lived subject. Your posts on this Thread lead me to much research, and in turn, put my brain back where it should be... On the bench, at the range and in the field. Thank You All! Merry Christmas!!!

December 8, 2009, 02:26 PM	#9
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	Nothing wrong with having a fertile imagination! I do think a standard,off the shelf ,cartridge is a wise choice for a starter cartridge for a new shooter.Wally-world ammo might make the difference between going shooting and staying home for lack of loads.The money you save will allow you to get him a top quality scope.Cheap ,short eye relief scopes hurt new shooters). Merry Christmas,back at you.

December 10, 2009, 06:17 AM	#12
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,379	If you look around a bit I think you will find that someone did that 50-60 years ago and with any shoulder angle you may dream of.

December 10, 2009, 11:58 AM	#13
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	Radom, I've thought about this idea quite a bit, over the last several years, and always figured there HAD to be someone who did this before, but why didn't it stick? The .243 Win., .260 Rem., 7mm-08 Rem. and .308 Win. all made it, but why not the same case with a .277" bullet??? It wouldn't "fill a niche", by any means, but many of the commercial cartridges we have today don't much fill any niche, either. I'm a fan of the .270 Win., .243 Win. and 7mm-08...all very fine cartridges... One of the thoughts/concerns in my mind about the .270/308 have been, was it INaccurate? Just not a good enough balance to produce accuracy? You can bet Your finest rifle, that if I had the funds I'd have a rifle chambered in it! I'm just convinced, without seeing any published ballistics, that the .270/308 would be a hot little cartridge......and accurate. I'd have to prove it to myself to believe otherwise. I'm only 31 years young, so I've got time (GOD Willing).

December 10, 2009, 12:17 PM	#14
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,175	It is hard to trace the logic of the manufacturers when they come out with stuff... or don't. I would not ask why there is not a regular .270/308 but rather why did Winchester originally look at the 7x64 Brenneke, conclude they wanted something of the sort, but change the bullet diameter just a smidgen? It could just as easily have been the .280 Winchester with a .284" bullet as a .270 Win with .277" bullet; a diameter not previously used except by the obscure 6.8mm Chinese Mauser.