CZ Scorpion for home defense purposes?

liv4spd · February 12, 2024, 09:48 AM

Is it a good idea to buy a CZ Scorpion for home defense purposes? That thing seems to be a little chunky compared to a regular pistol.

IDbound · February 12, 2024, 01:44 PM

But with a red dot and 20 round mags, you can more accurately place a great deal of lead, precisely and quickly on your target!

TunnelRat · February 12, 2024, 06:07 PM

I think it depends on how you’re going to use it. If you mean with a brace or potentially a stock, I’ve found that it’s a lot easier to shoot one of these pistol caliber carbines (PCC) than a handgun. I can get a novice proficient with one pretty quickly, and a more experienced shooter can make shots that are hard with a typical handgun seem easy with a PCC. You have more mass to mitigate the recoil and more points of contact for control.

If, however, you mean something without a brace or stock, then I think the utility is reduced a lot. But if you go the braced pistol route then you need to consider recent rulings on pistol braces, how those might change, and your thoughts on how all of that relates to the NFA. I think there are a number of threads on here about that.

liv4spd · February 12, 2024, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I think it depends on how you’re going to use it. If you mean with a brace or potentially a stock, I’ve found that it’s a lot easier to shoot one of these pistol caliber carbines (PCC) than a handgun. I can get a novice proficient with one pretty quickly, and a more experienced shooter can make shots that are hard with a typical handgun seem easy with a PCC. You have more mass to mitigate the recoil and more points of contact for control.

If, however, you mean something without a brace or stock, then I think the utility is reduced a lot. But if you go the braced pistol route then you need to consider recent rulings on pistol braces, how those might change, and your thoughts on how all of that relates to the NFA. I think there are a number of threads on here about that.

I wasn't aware of those rulings. So if the government considers such weapons illegal, we would have to turn them in and get nothing for compensation?

When full automatic rifles were banned in 1986, the government did not take guns away from people, instead, they just made it illegal to produce and sell that kind of weapons, am I right?

TunnelRat · February 12, 2024, 08:57 PM

There’s a lot to unpack when it comes to pistol braces, and I am by no means an expert.

Edit: there are threads on the legal subforum that may interest you, and some members here are actually lawyers (though not your lawyer as they might say), and you may be interested in reading their thoughts. Lots of videos online, too, just be mindful of who makes the video.

A short summary might be that some initial brace designs were ruled fine by the ATF, with the understanding that they were meant for people who are disabled. SB Tactical, which I believe stands for SIG Brace Tactical as SIG was the first to use them, was the original producer of the braces, though other companies showed up. SB Tactical started making other variants that could be argued to be much more like stocks than braces. The popularity of these “pistols” exploded from what they once were, with estimates of how many were bought being as high in some cases as millions.

Some would argue people were buying these as a way to get around the NFA, and over time the ATF took notice and made some comments, though stopped short of saying they were illegal (this lead to a period of time where some wouldn’t shoulder a brace, but instead prop it in their cheek because they thought the distinction would matter, some people got very nuanced). The ATF then came out with a ruling and a points system to determine whether a given brace and firearm combination was legal, as well as allowing for an amnesty period during which a braced firearm could be registered without needing the NFA tax stamp. That ruling was stayed in court, originally just for members of the plaintiff organizations that fought in court, with that being extended nationally afterwards. To my knowledge that is where it sits now.

Why this matters with the Scorpion is if you are buying say a 8” or shorter barrel variant, you are buying what is legally a pistol and have a few options. You can shoot it without a brace, with a brace, or go through the NFA process and make it a SBR. How you view all of that may impact how much the Scorpion appeals to you.

liv4spd · February 12, 2024, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Why this matters with the Scorpion is if you are buying say a 8” or shorter barrel variant, you are buying what is legally a pistol and have a few options. You can shoot it without a brace, with a brace, or go through the NFA process and make it a SBR. How you view all of that may impact how much the Scorpion appeals to you.

Many thanks for the detailed reply. Not sure if I understood your last paragraph. I do plan to buy the 3+ Micro with a barrel length of 4.2 inch. So in that case, it will be classified as a pistol and I will be alright?

TunnelRat · February 12, 2024, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liv4spd

Many thanks for the detailed reply. Not sure if I understood your last paragraph. I do plan to buy the 3+ Micro with a barrel length of 4.2 inch. So in that case, it will be classified as a pistol and I will be alright?

It will be a pistol as purchased. My point is how you use it, whether you buy it with a brace, attach a brace to it, or SBR it, all of that can come into play. Despite being currently legal, some people are leery of using say a braced pistol for home defense because of the gray area it currently occupies. The ATF ruling is stayed, but not indefinitely stopped. That may not matter to you, I just wanted you to have some information to make a decision (and again I am not the definitive source of information on this).

liv4spd · February 12, 2024, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

It will be a pistol as purchased. My point is how you use it, whether you buy it with a brace, attach a brace to it, or SBR it, all of that can come into play. Despite being currently legal, some people are leery of using say a braced pistol for home defense because of the gray area it currently occupies. The ATF ruling is stayed, but not indefinitely stopped. That may not matter to you, I just wanted you to have some information to make a decision (and again I am not the definitive source of information on this).

Many thanks for sharing the information! Much appreciated.

Pumpkin · February 12, 2024, 11:52 PM

I have a Scorpion 3+ with the 4.2” barrel and I use a single point sling. It is almost as good as the wrist brace and maybe as good with practice. As far as I know, it’s completely legal.

TunnelRat · February 13, 2024, 06:11 AM

And that’s another option entirely (and yes I don’t think the slings have ever been questioned).

Destructo6 · February 13, 2024, 08:07 AM

As a pistol, yes, the Scorpion is large, chunky, and unwieldy.

As a shoulder fired weapon, it is excellent.

jetinteriorguy · February 13, 2024, 02:03 PM

If you’re only getting one with that short of a barrel the only thing you’re gaining is a high cap mag. You can get pretty much the same advantage by sticking a high cap Glock mag in a Glock 17 and it would be easier to handle.

Screwball · February 13, 2024, 02:56 PM

When the brace thing popped off (rule change), I just got a full size PTR MP5 clone with SB brace. Being I wanted to SBR it… no engraving and no $200 made the decision easy. I actually did 6 braced pistols that way. Completely happy with my decision.

That being said, I SBRed another lower (after the period closed) which I’m waiting to engrave and SBSed a TAC-14 (was caught up in the same brace crap, as I ran it with one).

With the injunction, I built another pistol lower. I really don’t use it, but it is nice to know if I travel to somewhere that I can’t get a 5320.20 back quick enough, I can pop the two pins and go to AR pistol somewhat easily. Being I felt the brace ruling wouldn’t stand up… that is why I Form 1ed my other pistols (saved me $1,200 on tax, as well as shipping/engraving costs).

If I were late to the party, and getting a CZ… I’d do a pistol brace. Worst case, you might have to get rid of it if the ruling is upheld (which… in this reality… could go either way; however, I still can’t see it being upheld with recent firearm rulings). I would say to consider NFA, if it works with your situation. Braced pistols are fun… SBRs are way more funner. But look into the pros/cons before making a decision.

**44 AMP** · February 13, 2024, 10:10 PM

TO be clear, the "brace ruling" which is currently being held under a stay by the courts is NOT a ruling that pistol braces are illegal.

And it is focused primarily on AR pistol braces which are being used as stocks. Using a brace (any brace) as a stock has never been legal, but isn't something that can be practically enforced, as you'd literally have to be "caught in the act".

What the ATF tried to do was reclassify braces that were legal as braces, into stocks, because some people were using them that way, and rather than try and catch and prosecute people doing that, their "solution" was to make the brace legally a stock, and therefore making the pistol with one an NFA item.

This did not apply to all guns or all braces, and the ATF was going to reclassify some of them by an internal ATF rule change, not an actual change in the Federal law. That is what got the stay applied to the action.

ANY pistol variant of a SMG design is at a disadvantage as a home defense weapon over a regular pistol in the same caliber. Its bigger, less well balances, and, unless you're plan it to physically hit someone with the gun the standard handgun is a better choice. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it, perhaps less....

Pumpkin · February 13, 2024, 11:24 PM

I will say this in reference to being no better than a Glock;
With a brace (not used as intended), SBR’d or single point sling, hits on target are essentially done with the same ease and speed as a 10/22 with a 20 round mag. In my opinion, that’s a little bit more effective than any Glock I know of.

bamaranger · February 15, 2024, 09:40 PM

There are some broadly based comments in post #14 that have gone unaddressed, concerning the year 1986. In question are elements of the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA). FOPA is usually viewed as largely firearms law reformation and gun owner positive.

Fully automatic firearms (machine guns) have been controlled by the US Gov't since 1934 with the National Firearms Act. The Gun Control Act of 1968 further addressed those weapons, as did suebsequently the passage of FOPA in 1986.

FOPA addressed several issues besides full auto. Concerning full auto, FOPA stated that "new" fully automatic weapons could only be supplied to police and military. Existing legal full auto weapons can still be possessed and sold to private individuals, but special tax, ATF ruling and skyrocketing costs have driven the price of purchase of a full auto firearm to astronomical levels. There are still 175,000 plus fully auto registered firearms in private hands in the US.

FOPA was largely gun owner friendly, and addressed heavy handedness of the gov't in dealing with dealers and citizens. As one might expect, it was opposed by all the usual anti-gun organizations, but passed anyhow.

**44 AMP** · February 15, 2024, 11:34 PM

Regarding FOPA the law as written was entirely protective of gun owners and did right some wrongs.

The "Hughes Amendment" was added at (nearly) the last minute, passed by (what some believe a questionable) voice vote and declared passed by the Speaker and added to the FOPA bill.

It was intended to be a "poison pill" to kill passage of the FOPA. The Hughes amendment set a date in May of 86 after which no more full auto firearms would be allowed to be added to the civilian registry.

The bill was passed, with the amendment attached, and signed into law by Reagan. Some people considered that a betrayal of our trust, others weren't happy about it, but considered it the greater good for the greater number of people.

highpower3006 · February 20, 2024, 11:48 PM

Don’t let the opinions of others stop you from trying it out for yourself. I have a few different firearms that are in my home defense arsenal, one of which is a MP5. Using the sling I can steady it well enough to make solid hits out to 100 meters using the red dot.

Drm50 · February 21, 2024, 04:24 PM

I just bought a S&W m39 NIB. Right away my boy wants one too. He called and said he found a CZ 75 like new for less than police trade in condition 39s. They are a well made pistol and when you think about it what choice you got today in 9mm pistol. S&W is done they are into plastic in that categories as well as Ruger, no Colt either except series 80 1911s. No more Brn HPs. Reasonably priced and solid built CZ is just about it in metal.

February 12, 2024, 08:57 PM	#5
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	CZ Scorpion for home defense purposes? There’s a lot to unpack when it comes to pistol braces, and I am by no means an expert. Edit: there are threads on the legal subforum that may interest you, and some members here are actually lawyers (though not your lawyer as they might say), and you may be interested in reading their thoughts. Lots of videos online, too, just be mindful of who makes the video. A short summary might be that some initial brace designs were ruled fine by the ATF, with the understanding that they were meant for people who are disabled. SB Tactical, which I believe stands for SIG Brace Tactical as SIG was the first to use them, was the original producer of the braces, though other companies showed up. SB Tactical started making other variants that could be argued to be much more like stocks than braces. The popularity of these “pistols” exploded from what they once were, with estimates of how many were bought being as high in some cases as millions. Some would argue people were buying these as a way to get around the NFA, and over time the ATF took notice and made some comments, though stopped short of saying they were illegal (this lead to a period of time where some wouldn’t shoulder a brace, but instead prop it in their cheek because they thought the distinction would matter, some people got very nuanced). The ATF then came out with a ruling and a points system to determine whether a given brace and firearm combination was legal, as well as allowing for an amnesty period during which a braced firearm could be registered without needing the NFA tax stamp. That ruling was stayed in court, originally just for members of the plaintiff organizations that fought in court, with that being extended nationally afterwards. To my knowledge that is where it sits now. Why this matters with the Scorpion is if you are buying say a 8” or shorter barrel variant, you are buying what is legally a pistol and have a few options. You can shoot it without a brace, with a brace, or go through the NFA process and make it a SBR. How you view all of that may impact how much the Scorpion appeals to you. Last edited by TunnelRat; February 12, 2024 at 09:11 PM.

February 13, 2024, 08:07 AM	#11
Destructo6 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 1999 Location: Nogales, AZ USA Posts: 4,001	As a pistol, yes, the Scorpion is large, chunky, and unwieldy. As a shoulder fired weapon, it is excellent. __________________ God gave you a soul. Your parents, a body. Your country, a rifle. Keep all of them clean.

February 15, 2024, 09:40 PM	#16
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,317	post 14, 1986 There are some broadly based comments in post #14 that have gone unaddressed, concerning the year 1986. In question are elements of the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA). FOPA is usually viewed as largely firearms law reformation and gun owner positive. Fully automatic firearms (machine guns) have been controlled by the US Gov't since 1934 with the National Firearms Act. The Gun Control Act of 1968 further addressed those weapons, as did suebsequently the passage of FOPA in 1986. FOPA addressed several issues besides full auto. Concerning full auto, FOPA stated that "new" fully automatic weapons could only be supplied to police and military. Existing legal full auto weapons can still be possessed and sold to private individuals, but special tax, ATF ruling and skyrocketing costs have driven the price of purchase of a full auto firearm to astronomical levels. There are still 175,000 plus fully auto registered firearms in private hands in the US. FOPA was largely gun owner friendly, and addressed heavy handedness of the gov't in dealing with dealers and citizens. As one might expect, it was opposed by all the usual anti-gun organizations, but passed anyhow.

February 15, 2024, 11:34 PM	#17
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,870	Regarding FOPA the law as written was entirely protective of gun owners and did right some wrongs. The "Hughes Amendment" was added at (nearly) the last minute, passed by (what some believe a questionable) voice vote and declared passed by the Speaker and added to the FOPA bill. It was intended to be a "poison pill" to kill passage of the FOPA. The Hughes amendment set a date in May of 86 after which no more full auto firearms would be allowed to be added to the civilian registry. The bill was passed, with the amendment attached, and signed into law by Reagan. Some people considered that a betrayal of our trust, others weren't happy about it, but considered it the greater good for the greater number of people. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 12, 2024, 09:48 AM	#1
liv4spd Member Join Date: January 28, 2024 Posts: 93	CZ Scorpion for home defense purposes? Is it a good idea to buy a CZ Scorpion for home defense purposes? That thing seems to be a little chunky compared to a regular pistol.

February 12, 2024, 01:44 PM	#2
IDbound Member Join Date: February 28, 2010 Posts: 52	But with a red dot and 20 round mags, you can more accurately place a great deal of lead, precisely and quickly on your target!

February 12, 2024, 06:07 PM	#3
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	I think it depends on how you’re going to use it. If you mean with a brace or potentially a stock, I’ve found that it’s a lot easier to shoot one of these pistol caliber carbines (PCC) than a handgun. I can get a novice proficient with one pretty quickly, and a more experienced shooter can make shots that are hard with a typical handgun seem easy with a PCC. You have more mass to mitigate the recoil and more points of contact for control. If, however, you mean something without a brace or stock, then I think the utility is reduced a lot. But if you go the braced pistol route then you need to consider recent rulings on pistol braces, how those might change, and your thoughts on how all of that relates to the NFA. I think there are a number of threads on here about that.

February 12, 2024, 11:52 PM	#9
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 433	I have a Scorpion 3+ with the 4.2” barrel and I use a single point sling. It is almost as good as the wrist brace and maybe as good with practice. As far as I know, it’s completely legal.

February 13, 2024, 06:11 AM	#10
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	And that’s another option entirely (and yes I don’t think the slings have ever been questioned).

February 13, 2024, 02:03 PM	#12
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,182	If you’re only getting one with that short of a barrel the only thing you’re gaining is a high cap mag. You can get pretty much the same advantage by sticking a high cap Glock mag in a Glock 17 and it would be easier to handle.

February 13, 2024, 02:56 PM	#13
Screwball Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2012 Location: ME Posts: 772	When the brace thing popped off (rule change), I just got a full size PTR MP5 clone with SB brace. Being I wanted to SBR it… no engraving and no $200 made the decision easy. I actually did 6 braced pistols that way. Completely happy with my decision. That being said, I SBRed another lower (after the period closed) which I’m waiting to engrave and SBSed a TAC-14 (was caught up in the same brace crap, as I ran it with one). With the injunction, I built another pistol lower. I really don’t use it, but it is nice to know if I travel to somewhere that I can’t get a 5320.20 back quick enough, I can pop the two pins and go to AR pistol somewhat easily. Being I felt the brace ruling wouldn’t stand up… that is why I Form 1ed my other pistols (saved me $1,200 on tax, as well as shipping/engraving costs). If I were late to the party, and getting a CZ… I’d do a pistol brace. Worst case, you might have to get rid of it if the ruling is upheld (which… in this reality… could go either way; however, I still can’t see it being upheld with recent firearm rulings). I would say to consider NFA, if it works with your situation. Braced pistols are fun… SBRs are way more funner. But look into the pros/cons before making a decision.

February 13, 2024, 10:10 PM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,870	TO be clear, the "brace ruling" which is currently being held under a stay by the courts is NOT a ruling that pistol braces are illegal. And it is focused primarily on AR pistol braces which are being used as stocks. Using a brace (any brace) as a stock has never been legal, but isn't something that can be practically enforced, as you'd literally have to be "caught in the act". What the ATF tried to do was reclassify braces that were legal as braces, into stocks, because some people were using them that way, and rather than try and catch and prosecute people doing that, their "solution" was to make the brace legally a stock, and therefore making the pistol with one an NFA item. This did not apply to all guns or all braces, and the ATF was going to reclassify some of them by an internal ATF rule change, not an actual change in the Federal law. That is what got the stay applied to the action. ANY pistol variant of a SMG design is at a disadvantage as a home defense weapon over a regular pistol in the same caliber. Its bigger, less well balances, and, unless you're plan it to physically hit someone with the gun the standard handgun is a better choice. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it, perhaps less.... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 13, 2024, 11:24 PM	#15
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 433	I will say this in reference to being no better than a Glock; With a brace (not used as intended), SBR’d or single point sling, hits on target are essentially done with the same ease and speed as a 10/22 with a 20 round mag. In my opinion, that’s a little bit more effective than any Glock I know of.

February 20, 2024, 11:48 PM	#18
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,220	Don’t let the opinions of others stop you from trying it out for yourself. I have a few different firearms that are in my home defense arsenal, one of which is a MP5. Using the sling I can steady it well enough to make solid hits out to 100 meters using the red dot.

February 21, 2024, 04:24 PM	#19
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,382	I just bought a S&W m39 NIB. Right away my boy wants one too. He called and said he found a CZ 75 like new for less than police trade in condition 39s. They are a well made pistol and when you think about it what choice you got today in 9mm pistol. S&W is done they are into plastic in that categories as well as Ruger, no Colt either except series 80 1911s. No more Brn HPs. Reasonably priced and solid built CZ is just about it in metal.