1911a1 singer Q

[stuckinthe60s]

who was issued the singer pistols when they were made?

how many were blued and how many were parkerized?

[Mike Irwin]

The initial order of 500 was forwarded to the US Ordnance Dept. As far as I know, all of that batch were blued. As they were issued, used, and cycled through ordnance depots quite a few ended up being refinished and parkerized. I've never seen any specifics as to whom the Singers were issued. My guess is that most of them simply went into the wartime churn.

Blued Singers are now quite sought after as most of the surviving guns are parkerized.

There are some known NON Ordnance contract Singers without serial numbers or inspection marks. These were given to/taken by employees or were tool room samples.

Once the initial contract was concluded, no more orders were forthcoming as allegedly Singer's manufacturing was so precise that the government decided that they would better serve the war effort by manufacturing highly precise equipment like bomb sights.

The tooling Singer had ended up going to Remington Rand and was used, in part, to manufacture that company's nearly 1 million 1911s.

[stuckinthe60s]

ok, its a start. thanks.
know of any for sale?

[Aguila Blanca]

Be careful. There are far more counterfeit Singers around than there are genuine examples. There aren't that many real ones still in existence.

[stuckinthe60s]

800,000-800,500 range is what im looking for.

just curious...how one would fake a serial number or fake a factory mark on the slide without obvious signs of buffing or metal loss?

in other words, if you were buying one, how would you know fake from real?

from what im reading, the army air corps got the initial 500 issued.

[Jim Watson]

Scott Gahimer is a reputable authenticator, I would sure want him or equal to sniff any $50000 - $100000 gun I was considering.


There was a guy in Canada who "cloned" a Singer. He had to leave the donor gun's serial number so it would be recognizable, but the other features and marking were very sincere.

[stuckinthe60s]

im reading up on his posts on the net. im in touch with him as we speak.
thanks.

[Jim Watson]

I once asked a collector about putting out a database of known legitimate (and not) Singers but he said that would just be a guide and invitation to fakers.

[stuckinthe60s]

interesting point.

[Aguila Blanca]

Scott Gahimer used to be a moderator on the M1911.org forum. IMHO he's probably the most knowledgeable person alive regarding 1911s. I believe he owns (or owned) two authentic Singers.

Originally Posted by stuckinthe60s

800,000-800,500 range is what im looking for.

Of course -- because that's the serial number range that was assigned to them. Except they should start with an S ... as in S800001 thru S800500 (no commas in the numbers)

[stuckinthe60s]

im just waiting to hear back from him.
btw, not necessarily 'of course.'
im not interested in the lunch pail specials or gifted guns unserialized.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by stuckinthe60s

im not interested in the lunch pail specials or gifted guns unserialized.

You do realize that the Singer contract was cancelled after the first batch of 500 pistols, right? They didn't make any others. I don't believe Singer made any unserialized presentation pistols, and I seriously doubt there were any "lunchbox" Singers. After the 500 samples were completed, Singer's tooling was transferred to Remington-Rand and Ithaca. Singer went on to make bomb sights and M1 Carbine receivers during the war.

[Mike Irwin]

"You do realize that the Singer contract was cancelled after the first batch of 500 pistols, right? They didn't make any others. I don't believe Singer made any unserialized presentation pistols, and I seriously doubt there were any "lunchbox" Singers. After the 500 samples were completed, Singer's tooling was transferred to Remington-Rand and Ithaca. Singer went on to make bomb sights and M1 Carbine receivers during the war. "

Incorrect.

As I noted, there are some known.

Singer didn't get a contract on Monday, set up the machinery on Tuesday, bang out 500 fully complete 1911s on Wednesday, and on Thursday send the machinery to Remington.

Numerous pre-production guns were assembled to ensure that the manufacturing process was working as it should. Additionally, there were an unknown number of unserialized Singer 1911s produced and either given to, or taken by, employees, very possibly because, for one reason or another, that gun couldn't have passed Government inspection for one reason or another.

It could be that employees simply took guns. Remember, this was the 1930s. Taking a gun from the manufacturer wasn't the huge deal it might be now because, unless the company cared, the government really didn't care.

I found a picture of an unserialized Singer (also unblued and not particularly well polished) yesterday, and now I can't find it again.

[Jim Watson]

Singer went on to make bomb sights and M1 Carbine receivers during the war.

I was doubtful of that but found mention of Singer making 5000 carbine receivers. Only problem, they are stamped Underwood and you have to know what to look for to tell they were subbed out to Singer. Seems strange, 5000 parts when you are equipping a whole army does not seem very effective. But efficiency goes by the wayside when the shooting starts.

[Electrod47]

As a Tank Gunner cruising the borders of Czechoslovakia during 67-69 we were issued .45 sidearms. In our Armory at Ray Barracks, Friedburg Germany I was shown a .45 with the Singer markings. We all thought it was funny a sewing machine company making guns.
Armorer said the CO said don't issue it to nobody.....I wonder now, did he have eyes on it?

[RickB]

The guns were marked "S. MFG. CO."; I always wondered how people, especially in the '40s, knew they were made by Singer?

[Mike Irwin]

In the 1940s they likely didn't know, and didn't care.

[stuckinthe60s]

agree.
i know one thing for sure, if i was down to just a 45, id know i was in trouble and could care less who made it. id be praying it went bang every time.