A-frame vs tsx

Roadkill2228 · January 26, 2016, 02:36 PM

What do you think the deepest penetrating expanding bullet for small bore calibers (.338 and under) is, the swift a frame or the Barnes tsx? Make it apples to apples and compare bullets of the same weight. Any real life experience is greatly appreciated but nothing wrong with speculation either so long as you explain your reason for believing what you do. No discussion of other bullets please, just these 2.

FrankenMauser · January 26, 2016, 02:49 PM

That's really an apples to pears comparison, to start with.
The A-frame uses a bonded lead core for nose expansion and weight retention, while the TSX has skived copper petals that will shear off and leave just the cylindrical base to continue penetrating.

So, while the TSX actively sheds it's front half to combat total bullet failure, the A-frame merely has to deal with erosion of the core and possibly small jacket fragments tearing off.

Both are good bullets, but they were designed to do completely different things upon impact.

Roadkill2228 · January 26, 2016, 02:57 PM

Yep I'm very familiar with the differences in construction. Both of these bullets are widely revered as the deepest penetrating expanding bullets out there. Just wanted to see if anyone's experiences or research led them to believe one "went deeper", as for petal shearing...I've heard of this, but have also heard its not really an issue anymore. Have you experienced this for yourself? There's a video on YouTube of a 130 grain .30 cal ttsx fired from a .30-378 at 4100 fps into Rubbermaid tub with a 2x4 and soaked newspaper in it from not far away at all...the bullet flattens out completely (a flying ashtray) but not one petal shears off. I thought it was pretty fascinating.

jmr40 · January 26, 2016, 04:15 PM

It would be extremely rare for a smaller caliber TSX to shed the petals. On larger calibers maybe. Virtually all of them retain 100% of their weight. The plastic tipped TTSX's lose the plastic tip, but that is about it. The smaller caliber TSX's developed a reputation for not expanding at all, that is why the plastic tips were added to them. They are different bullets for different purposes.

I've not seen any data to prove which is the best penetrating over all. I did see some data comparing early TSX's in 30 caliber to 200 and 220 gr Partitions. The 220 partitions out penetrated 180gr TSX's by a small margin.

Not true apples to apples, but when you can compare equal weight as in 30 calibers in 150 lead vs 150 copper or 165 lead vs 165 copper the copper always wins in every test I've seen. I would assume the same when you compare heavies.

Roadkill2228 · January 31, 2016, 05:53 PM

With bullets of equal weight the copper ones are generally much longer than the lead cores aren't they...so short action rounds might suffer with heavy Barnes but be fine with a frames. Let's compare another thing...minimum expansion velocity (because if you wanted to shoot an fmj it's much cheaper to buy an fmj). Anyone have any idea or experience on which bullets do more damage between aframe and tsx bullets out of small caliber (.338 and under) rounds in that marginal 1800-2400 fps regime? I know that the manufacturers probably both espouse their products as performing optimally at most any velocity but I think we all know in real life these super tough bullets don't always open up if they don't meet enough resistance. Thanks

January 26, 2016, 02:36 PM	#1
Roadkill2228 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2014 Location: Nipawin, Saskatchewan Posts: 311	A-frame vs tsx What do you think the deepest penetrating expanding bullet for small bore calibers (.338 and under) is, the swift a frame or the Barnes tsx? Make it apples to apples and compare bullets of the same weight. Any real life experience is greatly appreciated but nothing wrong with speculation either so long as you explain your reason for believing what you do. No discussion of other bullets please, just these 2.

January 26, 2016, 02:49 PM	#2
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,426	That's really an apples to pears comparison, to start with. The A-frame uses a bonded lead core for nose expansion and weight retention, while the TSX has skived copper petals that will shear off and leave just the cylindrical base to continue penetrating. So, while the TSX actively sheds it's front half to combat total bullet failure, the A-frame merely has to deal with erosion of the core and possibly small jacket fragments tearing off. Both are good bullets, but they were designed to do completely different things upon impact. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

January 26, 2016, 02:57 PM	#3
Roadkill2228 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2014 Location: Nipawin, Saskatchewan Posts: 311	Yep I'm very familiar with the differences in construction. Both of these bullets are widely revered as the deepest penetrating expanding bullets out there. Just wanted to see if anyone's experiences or research led them to believe one "went deeper", as for petal shearing...I've heard of this, but have also heard its not really an issue anymore. Have you experienced this for yourself? There's a video on YouTube of a 130 grain .30 cal ttsx fired from a .30-378 at 4100 fps into Rubbermaid tub with a 2x4 and soaked newspaper in it from not far away at all...the bullet flattens out completely (a flying ashtray) but not one petal shears off. I thought it was pretty fascinating.

January 26, 2016, 04:15 PM	#4
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	It would be extremely rare for a smaller caliber TSX to shed the petals. On larger calibers maybe. Virtually all of them retain 100% of their weight. The plastic tipped TTSX's lose the plastic tip, but that is about it. The smaller caliber TSX's developed a reputation for not expanding at all, that is why the plastic tips were added to them. They are different bullets for different purposes. I've not seen any data to prove which is the best penetrating over all. I did see some data comparing early TSX's in 30 caliber to 200 and 220 gr Partitions. The 220 partitions out penetrated 180gr TSX's by a small margin. Not true apples to apples, but when you can compare equal weight as in 30 calibers in 150 lead vs 150 copper or 165 lead vs 165 copper the copper always wins in every test I've seen. I would assume the same when you compare heavies.

January 31, 2016, 05:53 PM	#5
Roadkill2228 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2014 Location: Nipawin, Saskatchewan Posts: 311	With bullets of equal weight the copper ones are generally much longer than the lead cores aren't they...so short action rounds might suffer with heavy Barnes but be fine with a frames. Let's compare another thing...minimum expansion velocity (because if you wanted to shoot an fmj it's much cheaper to buy an fmj). Anyone have any idea or experience on which bullets do more damage between aframe and tsx bullets out of small caliber (.338 and under) rounds in that marginal 1800-2400 fps regime? I know that the manufacturers probably both espouse their products as performing optimally at most any velocity but I think we all know in real life these super tough bullets don't always open up if they don't meet enough resistance. Thanks