Thoughts on a few bull pup rifles - Page 2

tulsamal · May 4, 2014, 11:12 AM

Quote:

but I assume the AUG is pretty refined by now

I'll agree with that one. I'm interested in the newer designs but the AUG has been around longer and been adopted by various militaries. The new A3's are very nice. CDNN is even selling new A3's with five mags and a sling for $1799.99. Downright decent price. I should probably pick up another one!

Personally, I prefer the AUG with the standard AUG mags. It was a very innovative and ground breaking design when it was released. They are still very durable and reliable mags. Widely available for a low price. And with the bullpup design, the factory 42 round mag is much handier than an AR-15 would be with that length. I've got a bunch of 30 round mags but the 42's are very nice.

Gregg

Gbnk82 · May 4, 2014, 11:29 AM

It seems like price would be my biggest thing the tavor and aug seem to be close to the same however it seems I find more deals on the tavor..the ps90 seems to be the cheapest so far and another reason I like it above the rest so far..if I could find a good deal on a fs2000 I think I would almost most definetly go with it.it has the Same shape of the ps90 I love but IMO fires a much better all around round..I really need to find a range that rents out rifles

barnbwt · May 4, 2014, 12:04 PM

As much as I like the concept, the PS90 is grossly overpriced for a direct blowback carbine. I'd almost sooner buy a non-bullpup B&T TP9 and SBR it to an MP9 for a near-bullpup size unit. They seem to be steady or falling in price at around 1200$, and seeing how even a CX4 is creeping up north of 600$ and rising, the deal might not be so relatively bad before long (both will be bad deals due to inflation

)

TCB

chadio · May 4, 2014, 12:49 PM

I'll never try to convince anyone that the PS90 is the best design, or that it is a lot of rifle for the price, or that the 5.7x28 cartridge is the best thing since sliced bread, etc.

However, if you are a left-handed shooter or if a friend / family member is lefty: just remember that the PS90 needs nothing to fire left or right hand. No parts, bolts, changes, etc. The rifle works exactly the same on either side.

JD0x0 · May 4, 2014, 01:19 PM

I've been taking a good long look at the MSAR .300 Blackout Bullpup (also available in .223/5.56 but I'm not a fan of .22 centerfires.)

HKFan9 · May 4, 2014, 01:59 PM

I owned a PS90 before, the round is great, specially out of the rifle barrel, however I could not fall in love with the Ergo's of the PS90. I kept the FiveseveN and sold my PS90.

The AUG is a good gun, a little awkward but I think all bull pups are.

The FS2000... again the Ergos are an issue for me, along with the fact with the forward eject, jams can be a nightmare, not something I would favor for much more than an expensive range toy.

The Tavor I have been shooting lately, I still prefer a conventional M4 platform, however the Tavor is rather comfortable, definitely handy like all bull pups, the trigger on it is about on par with most bull pups in the fact is they are never the best, however after market drops in are now being made. What I like best is the mag release and bolt lever being intuitive on it. Makes that awkward bull pup mag change pretty manageable.

Bart Noir · May 5, 2014, 08:05 PM

Quote:

It uses standard AR aluminum magazines, 30 rounds and larger. 20 round magazine won't protrude far enough below the stock to remove them.

The newest Magpul 20-rounders are even longer than the first model Magpul 20-rounders, which in turn are longer than the original GI metal 20-rounders. I have been wondering if the lengthening of Magpul magazines has been due to use in bullpup carbines. I suspect that was one factor.

Quote:

I found my particular one does not like Lancer magazines.

Spyderdude, which generation of Lancers gave you trouble? The earlier generation was the one where the steel only exists at the feed lips and the notch for locking in the carbine is only plastic. Second generation, called the AWM, looks like this (and I like them in 20 and 30 rounds):

Lancer AWM

Bart Noir

armoredman · May 5, 2014, 10:52 PM

It's too bad that the cost for such wonderful rifles is so incredibly high. I handled a PS 2000 once, interesting in it's stock configuration, but I felt like I was handling a space marine issue plasma rifle.

I'd really like a chance to try a Tavor sometime, see if it's worth saving up my pennies...

armoredman · May 5, 2014, 11:15 PM

Question for Tavor owners...well, two actually.
Number one - how IS it pronounced?

Number two, more serious - watching videos of the rifle being used, it almost looks like the shooting hand could very easily trip the mag release paddle. Considering it's an in-service military design, it probably doesn't do that, but I am curious. I might have to start saving pennies now...

spyderdude · May 5, 2014, 11:17 PM

I have the Lancer L5 AWM mags and for some reason my Tavor does not like them. It had a few malfunctions on both the 20 and 30 rounders. I'll just leave those to run in my AR15s.

Armoredman - The Tavor is pronounced Tuh-Voor (best way I can put it LOL)

As for accidentally hitting the mag release, there is a chance it could happen but it would almost require you to remove your shooting hand off the grip to do it.

filthy phil · May 6, 2014, 05:34 AM

With near 40 ar mags I want a nato aug

SR420 · May 6, 2014, 10:15 AM

Quote:

skizzums

its basically a way of having the dimensions of an SBR w/o the paperwork.

FYI, if you put a SOCOM 16 in a bullpup conversion kit (Rogue) you will need the SBR paperwork/tax stamp. The 16.25" barrel on the SOCOM renders an OAL of less than 26.0" ... the M14/M1A conversion kit is best suited to rifles with 18.0" to 22.0" barrels.

Microgunner · May 6, 2014, 10:40 AM

^ That's why the FS2000 has a 17.25" barrel. To meet the minimum allowed OAL.

cmdc · May 6, 2014, 11:47 AM

HKFan: I did the very same thing you did, i.e. I ditched the PS90, because I couldn't warm up to it, and kept the pistol. I have an AR 5.7 upper that I like much better.

armoredman: It is pronounced like TahVOR, emphasis on the last syllable. As to the mag release being inadvertently activated, I had my Tavor, a left-hand version, out for a range session yesterday, during which we put about 300 rds through it, and there were no issues with that.

Gbnk82 · May 6, 2014, 12:16 PM

We'll it seems like most favor the tavor..if I find a deal on one I might pick it up.i still really like the ps90 even with all it's quirks and shortcomings I may just end up getting myself one eventually anyway just to satisfy the itch I have for it..but all in all I think my favorite listed so far has been the fs2000..when I go shopping for one it is going to come down to which feels better in my hands the tavor or the fs2000...I'd love to have the aug but it seems like they are priced a lot higher from what I found and that kind of killed those for me..

armoredman · May 6, 2014, 12:27 PM

Atlantic Firearms is advertising the Tavor FDE 16.5" for $1689...I see to have forgotten to get a major credit card.

Gbnk82 · May 6, 2014, 12:33 PM

If I had the cash today I might just snatch that up..I love the fde finish also my 6920 is fde..unfortunately this isn't in the budget for about 3 more months

ttarp · May 6, 2014, 02:27 PM

The AUG isn't significantly more than a Tavor, unless perhaps the Nato stocks are more expensive. I picked up an A3 for $1725 at buds.

HKFan9 · May 6, 2014, 03:09 PM

IWI has released 9mm conversion units for the Tavor as well... I have not had a chance to fire one yet however. Kind of on the price side of things, but it would make a nice addition.

tirod · May 9, 2014, 10:13 AM

Looked at the AUG in the day, with HK91's selling for $200 there wasn't any reason to bother.

With AR's selling for $650, there still isn't. What we tend to forget is that the firearm is just a launching tube for the bullet, which does all the work. Given the same ammo and target, the results are the same.

If you need to spend 2X on the gun for the same result, it's not about technical superiority or it's abilities. So the pro's and con's of owning one due an incremental ability to put, or not, a round on target have more to do with pride of ownership than it's primary purpose.

In that regard, get the Tavor, it's cheaper. In any case, it's a gun based on a single source 'contract', you can't get parts for it much. Just like the HK, there wasn't a wide number of sources to get all sorts of goodies like the AR. You had a choice of tropical or Euro handguards, an expensive scope mount, and magazines were $20 each in the '70s. Ouch.

If your bullpup uses proprietary mags and you plan on shooting it a lot, figure in the cost of those, and research what parts you may need to replace at whatever interval is recommended. Springs, a firing pin, bolt, etc are all part of the running costs - and like a lot of cars these days, the parts are NOT on the shelf. Ask me how I know, I have a 99 Subaru . . .

May 4, 2014, 12:04 PM	#28
barnbwt Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2012 Posts: 1,085	As much as I like the concept, the PS90 is grossly overpriced for a direct blowback carbine. I'd almost sooner buy a non-bullpup B&T TP9 and SBR it to an MP9 for a near-bullpup size unit. They seem to be steady or falling in price at around 1200$, and seeing how even a CX4 is creeping up north of 600$ and rising, the deal might not be so relatively bad before long (both will be bad deals due to inflation ) TCB __________________ "I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater

May 4, 2014, 12:49 PM	#29
chadio Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2011 Posts: 931	I'll never try to convince anyone that the PS90 is the best design, or that it is a lot of rifle for the price, or that the 5.7x28 cartridge is the best thing since sliced bread, etc. However, if you are a left-handed shooter or if a friend / family member is lefty: just remember that the PS90 needs nothing to fire left or right hand. No parts, bolts, changes, etc. The rifle works exactly the same on either side. __________________ Ex - Navy, Persian Gulf Veteran. Loved shooting the M14, 1911, M60, M2

May 6, 2014, 05:34 AM	#36
filthy phil Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2013 Location: Tomball Tejas Posts: 105	With near 40 ar mags I want a nato aug __________________ glocks gen4 :21, gen 3 17tb, 19, 30s (×2) , sig tacpac 1911, colt 6920(x2), cia underfolder ak, npap underfolder

May 6, 2014, 10:40 AM	#38
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	^ That's why the FS2000 has a 17.25" barrel. To meet the minimum allowed OAL. __________________ *Proud NRA Benefactor Member*

May 4, 2014, 11:29 AM	#27
Gbnk82 Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 293	It seems like price would be my biggest thing the tavor and aug seem to be close to the same however it seems I find more deals on the tavor..the ps90 seems to be the cheapest so far and another reason I like it above the rest so far..if I could find a good deal on a fs2000 I think I would almost most definetly go with it.it has the Same shape of the ps90 I love but IMO fires a much better all around round..I really need to find a range that rents out rifles

May 4, 2014, 01:19 PM	#30
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	I've been taking a good long look at the MSAR .300 Blackout Bullpup (also available in .223/5.56 but I'm not a fan of .22 centerfires.)

May 4, 2014, 01:59 PM	#31
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	I owned a PS90 before, the round is great, specially out of the rifle barrel, however I could not fall in love with the Ergo's of the PS90. I kept the FiveseveN and sold my PS90. The AUG is a good gun, a little awkward but I think all bull pups are. The FS2000... again the Ergos are an issue for me, along with the fact with the forward eject, jams can be a nightmare, not something I would favor for much more than an expensive range toy. The Tavor I have been shooting lately, I still prefer a conventional M4 platform, however the Tavor is rather comfortable, definitely handy like all bull pups, the trigger on it is about on par with most bull pups in the fact is they are never the best, however after market drops in are now being made. What I like best is the mag release and bolt lever being intuitive on it. Makes that awkward bull pup mag change pretty manageable.

May 5, 2014, 10:52 PM	#33
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	It's too bad that the cost for such wonderful rifles is so incredibly high. I handled a PS 2000 once, interesting in it's stock configuration, but I felt like I was handling a space marine issue plasma rifle. I'd really like a chance to try a Tavor sometime, see if it's worth saving up my pennies...

May 5, 2014, 11:15 PM	#34
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	Question for Tavor owners...well, two actually. Number one - how IS it pronounced? Number two, more serious - watching videos of the rifle being used, it almost looks like the shooting hand could very easily trip the mag release paddle. Considering it's an in-service military design, it probably doesn't do that, but I am curious. I might have to start saving pennies now...

May 5, 2014, 11:17 PM	#35
spyderdude Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Posts: 579	I have the Lancer L5 AWM mags and for some reason my Tavor does not like them. It had a few malfunctions on both the 20 and 30 rounders. I'll just leave those to run in my AR15s. Armoredman - The Tavor is pronounced Tuh-Voor (best way I can put it LOL) As for accidentally hitting the mag release, there is a chance it could happen but it would almost require you to remove your shooting hand off the grip to do it.

May 6, 2014, 11:47 AM	#39
cmdc Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2010 Location: Florida Gulf Coast Posts: 721	HKFan: I did the very same thing you did, i.e. I ditched the PS90, because I couldn't warm up to it, and kept the pistol. I have an AR 5.7 upper that I like much better. armoredman: It is pronounced like TahVOR, emphasis on the last syllable. As to the mag release being inadvertently activated, I had my Tavor, a left-hand version, out for a range session yesterday, during which we put about 300 rds through it, and there were no issues with that.

May 6, 2014, 12:16 PM	#40
Gbnk82 Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 293	We'll it seems like most favor the tavor..if I find a deal on one I might pick it up.i still really like the ps90 even with all it's quirks and shortcomings I may just end up getting myself one eventually anyway just to satisfy the itch I have for it..but all in all I think my favorite listed so far has been the fs2000..when I go shopping for one it is going to come down to which feels better in my hands the tavor or the fs2000...I'd love to have the aug but it seems like they are priced a lot higher from what I found and that kind of killed those for me..

May 6, 2014, 12:27 PM	#41
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	Atlantic Firearms is advertising the Tavor FDE 16.5" for $1689...I see to have forgotten to get a major credit card.

May 6, 2014, 12:33 PM	#42
Gbnk82 Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 293	If I had the cash today I might just snatch that up..I love the fde finish also my 6920 is fde..unfortunately this isn't in the budget for about 3 more months

May 6, 2014, 02:27 PM	#43
ttarp Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2013 Posts: 888	The AUG isn't significantly more than a Tavor, unless perhaps the Nato stocks are more expensive. I picked up an A3 for $1725 at buds.

May 6, 2014, 03:09 PM	#44
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	IWI has released 9mm conversion units for the Tavor as well... I have not had a chance to fire one yet however. Kind of on the price side of things, but it would make a nice addition.

May 9, 2014, 10:13 AM	#45
tirod Junior member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Posts: 1,672	Looked at the AUG in the day, with HK91's selling for $200 there wasn't any reason to bother. With AR's selling for $650, there still isn't. What we tend to forget is that the firearm is just a launching tube for the bullet, which does all the work. Given the same ammo and target, the results are the same. If you need to spend 2X on the gun for the same result, it's not about technical superiority or it's abilities. So the pro's and con's of owning one due an incremental ability to put, or not, a round on target have more to do with pride of ownership than it's primary purpose. In that regard, get the Tavor, it's cheaper. In any case, it's a gun based on a single source 'contract', you can't get parts for it much. Just like the HK, there wasn't a wide number of sources to get all sorts of goodies like the AR. You had a choice of tropical or Euro handguards, an expensive scope mount, and magazines were $20 each in the '70s. Ouch. If your bullpup uses proprietary mags and you plan on shooting it a lot, figure in the cost of those, and research what parts you may need to replace at whatever interval is recommended. Springs, a firing pin, bolt, etc are all part of the running costs - and like a lot of cars these days, the parts are NOT on the shelf. Ask me how I know, I have a 99 Subaru . . .