7.7 Japanese and Imr 4895

sfwusc · November 28, 2016, 09:06 PM

Is 42 gr behind 174 gr bullet ok. My manual doesn't have the load listed. The .303 Brit is a lot less and I know they are close. I found that data online but I am not sure I want to try it.

I don't want to split the brass so I want a mild load.

**44 AMP** · November 28, 2016, 11:13 PM

1970s era Lyman manual
7.7Japanese
180gr bullet
42.0gr IMR 4895 is the listed starting load

2304fps from a 25" barrel "Japanese Service Rifle"

Data for information and comparison only. I make no claim to its suitability in YOUR rifle.

I have used IMR 4895 in 7.7mm Jap, .303 Brit, 8mm Mauser and 7.62x54R,, its my go to powder for those milsurp rounds.

T. O'Heir · November 29, 2016, 12:48 PM

This is out of my 80's vintage Lyman manual. The 180 grain data should be fine for a 174 grain bullet. There is Hodgdon powder data on their site too.

Bullet diameter cast and jacketed: .311" or .312".(Barrels need slugging.)
Max Case Length: 2.269"
Trim-to: 2.260"
Max OAL w. bullet: 3.150"

150 grain Jacketed
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
IMR3031 42.0 2444 46.0 2717
IMR4895 43.0 2386 48.0 2754
IMR4064 43.0 2267 48.0 2666
IMR4320 45.0 2421 49.0 2717
IMR4350 49.0 2304 54.0 2659
H380 47.0 2375 52.0 2695

Accuracy Load: 43.0 grains IMR4064 2267 fps.

180 Grain Jacketed
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
IMR3031 39.0 2202 43.0 2444
IMR4895 42.0 2304 46.0 2564
IMR4064 42.0 2227 46.0 2512
IMR4320 43.0 2302 47.0 2590
IMR4350 47.0 2207 51.0* 2538
H380 45.0 2237 50.0 2525

Accuracy Load: 47.0 grains IMR4350 2207 fps
Factory duplication Load: 44.8 IMR4895 2500 fps.
'*' indicates a compressed load.

215 grain Jacketed(Woodleigh makes 'em. Midway sells 'em.)
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
IMR3031 35.0 1992 39.0 2178
IMR4895 39.0 2127 43.0 2352
IMR4064 39.0 2053 43.0 2293
IMR4320 41.0 2178 44.0 2347
H380 43.0 2123 48.0 2352

Accuracy Load: 49.0 grains IMR4350 2375 fps.
Factory Duplication Load: 40.0 IMR4895 2197 fps.

155 grain Cast w. Gas Check
Lyman mold #311466 #2 alloy
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
Unique 11.0 1470 15.0 1739
2400 22.0 1821 24.0 1953

205 grain Cast w. Gas Check
Lyman mold #311299 #2 alloy
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
Unique 10.0 1250 14.0 1524
2400 21.0 1607 24.0 1792
IMR4227 28.0 1923 30.0 2049

213/214 grain Cast w. Gas Check
Lyman molds #311290 and #311284 respectively(Montana Bullet Co makes the 213 at least)
Powder Start Vel Max Vel
Unique 10.0 1214 13.0 1423
2400 21.0 1595 24.0 1739
IMR4227 28.0 1865 30.0 1992

Accuracy Load: 30.0 grains IMR4227 1992 fps.

sfwusc · November 29, 2016, 09:05 PM

Thanks.

I might start at 40 gr and work up from there. No need to take chances. I just want to shoot it a few times. I got 40 cases and dies.

sfwusc · December 24, 2016, 03:23 PM

The bullet is falling to the brass casing. Is .303 projectile not correct?

ireload2 · December 24, 2016, 10:10 PM

>>>The bullet is falling to the brass casing. Is .303 projectile not correct? <<<

Do you have calipers or a micrometer?

Check the diameter of the bullet and check the diameter of the expander in the FL die.

The neck of the FL die could be too large also.
The case neck after sizing should be about .002 smaller than the bullet.

Gunplummer · December 25, 2016, 12:20 AM

There is no "Neck" in a full length die, unless it is a real oddball die. Probably the bullets or the expander ball.

mkl · December 26, 2016, 01:07 PM

Quote:

There is no "Neck" in a full length die, unless it is a real oddball die.

Well, what do you call that part of the die that reduces the case neck inside diameter below the diameter of the expander ball?

gwpercle · December 26, 2016, 01:51 PM

!970 Speer manual : 7.7 mm Japanese
180 grain RN jacketed bullet .311" dia. , with 4895 powder .
Starting Load : 38.0 grains - 2240 fps
Maximum load: 42.0 grains - 2425 fps

Nothing like conflicting data . Seek a third and maybe even a fourth source , average the data and err on the side of caution. Start low and work up !

Geezerbiker · December 26, 2016, 04:42 PM

I've used .308 Win loading data for hunting rounds with my Arisaka rifles.

The Type 99 Arisaka is a strong rifle and the 7.7x58mm case is larger than a .308 Win so the pressure will be less than a .308 Win.

Tony

Gunplummer · December 26, 2016, 05:13 PM

MKL, I don't know what YOU call it, but it is not a neck sizer. There is nothing there to resize the neck to the original dimensions. The expander ball does that. RCBS often includes two different size expander balls for one die, depending on what bullet you want to use.

tangolima · December 26, 2016, 06:32 PM

If the bullet falls out of a sized brass, it is likely you have 0.308" bullet, instead of the correct diameter of 0.310" - 0.312".

Although it is possible, it is rather improbable that the expander ball is oversized.

I handload for my 2 t99s.

-TL

rklapp · December 27, 2016, 03:11 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErFaJlUVs1Y

Get yourself some lead weights from a fishing store.

mkl · December 27, 2016, 11:31 AM

Gunplummer said:

Quote:

MKL, I don't know what YOU call it, but it is not a neck sizer. There is nothing there to resize the neck to the original dimensions. The expander ball does that.

I always called that portion of a full length die the neck sizing portion of the die. I asked the question on the chance that there was another and more appropriate name for it. It does not reduce the neck diameter to factory dimensions, but to below factory dimensions. Then the expander ball sizes the ID of the neck to the appropriate size as it is extracted from the case. An expander ball will not resize to the correct ID if the case neck has not been run into the "neck sizing" portion of the die.

Not looking to start an argument, just was wondering if perhaps there was a better term than I was using for that portion of the die that reduces the neck diameter.

F. Guffey · December 27, 2016, 11:45 AM

Quote:

I always called that portion of a full length die the neck sizing portion of the die.

MKL, there is a lot of this going around, members trying to reinvent reloading, all of my full length sizing dies have a neck sizing feature. The one thing I do not agree with is the neck pulling when the sizer ball is pulled through. I know it sounds cool but I have never found another reloader that wanted to go through the trouble of testing. And then there is that part that just exhaust me; that is the part about convincing someone it can be done.

F. Guffey

RC20 · December 27, 2016, 05:54 PM

Quote:

MKL, I don't know what YOU call it, but it is not a neck sizer. There is nothing there to resize the neck to the original dimensions. The expander ball does that. RCBS often includes two different size expander balls for one die, depending on what bullet you want to use.
Gunplummer is offline Report Post

Well, when I shoot a round, my mouth is really really loose.

If I ran just an expander through it, that would not tighten it up.

Actually it would do nothing.

By definition an expander EXPANDS. Ergo it is a neck expander, not a neck sizer (though granted it is a form of sizing but after not before) .

So, when you run a case into an FL die, the expander goes through the neck with no resistance, then the die compresses the case including shoulder and neck, and then as to bring it back out, the expander ball expands it just a bit (you can feel that)

You can actually re-size them without it.

Gunplummer · December 28, 2016, 05:15 PM

I can not imagine the top of the die being that "Oversize". Maybe it is not even the right die. Let's all call it "The neck undersizer" part of the die.

F. Guffey · December 30, 2016, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Well, when I shoot a round, my mouth is really really loose.

If I ran just an expander through it, that would not tighten it up.

I will assume you are talking about the mouth of the case; after that I will do some more assuming. I assume you got confused because my expanders expand. If I am going to reduce the diameter of the case neck I must size it down. There are several dies designed to reduce the outside diameter of the case neck, after that it gets complicated.

With discipline a reloader could determine if he had enough clearance between the outside of the case neck and chamber after his first firing.

F. Guffey

ireload2 · January 2, 2017, 02:43 AM

Gun plummer
You should improve your reading comprehension. No one called it a neck sizer or neck sizing die. I referred to the neck section of a FL sizing die. You know it is that section of a FL die that some people actually use as a neck sizer for a longer round.

I can assure you that every FL die that I own (and the number exceeds a 100) has a neck section that sizes the neck diameter just like the body of the sizing chamber sizes the body of the case. I call it neck section even when the case has no proper bottle neck shape.

If you have never tried it is perfectly possible to size a case with the die and NO expander.
The famous Lee Whack A Mole die does that, bushing dies do that too and you can even hone out the neck of a die to size the neck with no expander.
The way you check for inadequate sizing is to check the neck section of the FL die. They can actually be oversize and it makes no difference if you have the right expander ball when the neck is oversize. Comprehende????

>>>>MKL, I don't know what YOU call it, but it is not a neck sizer. There is nothing there to resize the neck to the original dimensions. The expander ball does that. RCBS often includes two different size expander balls for one die, depending on what bullet you want to use.

November 28, 2016, 09:06 PM	#1
sfwusc Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2013 Posts: 231	7.7 Japanese and Imr 4895 Is 42 gr behind 174 gr bullet ok. My manual doesn't have the load listed. The .303 Brit is a lot less and I know they are close. I found that data online but I am not sure I want to try it. I don't want to split the brass so I want a mild load.

November 28, 2016, 11:13 PM	#2
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,853	1970s era Lyman manual 7.7Japanese 180gr bullet 42.0gr IMR 4895 is the listed starting load 2304fps from a 25" barrel "Japanese Service Rifle" Data for information and comparison only. I make no claim to its suitability in YOUR rifle. I have used IMR 4895 in 7.7mm Jap, .303 Brit, 8mm Mauser and 7.62x54R,, its my go to powder for those milsurp rounds. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

November 29, 2016, 12:48 PM	#3
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	This is out of my 80's vintage Lyman manual. The 180 grain data should be fine for a 174 grain bullet. There is Hodgdon powder data on their site too. Bullet diameter cast and jacketed: .311" or .312".(Barrels need slugging.) Max Case Length: 2.269" Trim-to: 2.260" Max OAL w. bullet: 3.150" 150 grain Jacketed Powder Start Vel Max Vel IMR3031 42.0 2444 46.0 2717 IMR4895 43.0 2386 48.0 2754 IMR4064 43.0 2267 48.0 2666 IMR4320 45.0 2421 49.0 2717 IMR4350 49.0 2304 54.0 2659 H380 47.0 2375 52.0 2695 Accuracy Load: 43.0 grains IMR4064 2267 fps. 180 Grain Jacketed Powder Start Vel Max Vel IMR3031 39.0 2202 43.0 2444 IMR4895 42.0 2304 46.0 2564 IMR4064 42.0 2227 46.0 2512 IMR4320 43.0 2302 47.0 2590 IMR4350 47.0 2207 51.0* 2538 H380 45.0 2237 50.0 2525 Accuracy Load: 47.0 grains IMR4350 2207 fps Factory duplication Load: 44.8 IMR4895 2500 fps. '*' indicates a compressed load. 215 grain Jacketed(Woodleigh makes 'em. Midway sells 'em.) Powder Start Vel Max Vel IMR3031 35.0 1992 39.0 2178 IMR4895 39.0 2127 43.0 2352 IMR4064 39.0 2053 43.0 2293 IMR4320 41.0 2178 44.0 2347 H380 43.0 2123 48.0 2352 Accuracy Load: 49.0 grains IMR4350 2375 fps. Factory Duplication Load: 40.0 IMR4895 2197 fps. 155 grain Cast w. Gas Check Lyman mold #311466 #2 alloy Powder Start Vel Max Vel Unique 11.0 1470 15.0 1739 2400 22.0 1821 24.0 1953 205 grain Cast w. Gas Check Lyman mold #311299 #2 alloy Powder Start Vel Max Vel Unique 10.0 1250 14.0 1524 2400 21.0 1607 24.0 1792 IMR4227 28.0 1923 30.0 2049 213/214 grain Cast w. Gas Check Lyman molds #311290 and #311284 respectively(Montana Bullet Co makes the 213 at least) Powder Start Vel Max Vel Unique 10.0 1214 13.0 1423 2400 21.0 1595 24.0 1739 IMR4227 28.0 1865 30.0 1992 Accuracy Load: 30.0 grains IMR4227 1992 fps. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 29, 2016, 09:05 PM	#4
sfwusc Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2013 Posts: 231	Thanks. I might start at 40 gr and work up from there. No need to take chances. I just want to shoot it a few times. I got 40 cases and dies.

December 24, 2016, 03:23 PM	#5
sfwusc Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2013 Posts: 231	The bullet is falling to the brass casing. Is .303 projectile not correct?

December 24, 2016, 10:10 PM	#6
ireload2 Junior member Join Date: December 23, 2016 Posts: 30	>>>The bullet is falling to the brass casing. Is .303 projectile not correct? <<< Do you have calipers or a micrometer? Check the diameter of the bullet and check the diameter of the expander in the FL die. The neck of the FL die could be too large also. The case neck after sizing should be about .002 smaller than the bullet.

December 25, 2016, 12:20 AM	#7
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	There is no "Neck" in a full length die, unless it is a real oddball die. Probably the bullets or the expander ball.

December 26, 2016, 01:51 PM	#9
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	!970 Speer manual : 7.7 mm Japanese 180 grain RN jacketed bullet .311" dia. , with 4895 powder . Starting Load : 38.0 grains - 2240 fps Maximum load: 42.0 grains - 2425 fps Nothing like conflicting data . Seek a third and maybe even a fourth source , average the data and err on the side of caution. Start low and work up !

December 26, 2016, 04:42 PM	#10
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	I've used .308 Win loading data for hunting rounds with my Arisaka rifles. The Type 99 Arisaka is a strong rifle and the 7.7x58mm case is larger than a .308 Win so the pressure will be less than a .308 Win. Tony

December 26, 2016, 05:13 PM	#11
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	MKL, I don't know what YOU call it, but it is not a neck sizer. There is nothing there to resize the neck to the original dimensions. The expander ball does that. RCBS often includes two different size expander balls for one die, depending on what bullet you want to use.

December 26, 2016, 06:32 PM	#12
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,829	If the bullet falls out of a sized brass, it is likely you have 0.308" bullet, instead of the correct diameter of 0.310" - 0.312". Although it is possible, it is rather improbable that the expander ball is oversized. I handload for my 2 t99s. -TL

December 27, 2016, 03:11 AM	#13
rklapp Member Join Date: September 5, 2016 Posts: 58	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErFaJlUVs1Y Get yourself some lead weights from a fishing store.

December 28, 2016, 05:15 PM	#17
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I can not imagine the top of the die being that "Oversize". Maybe it is not even the right die. Let's all call it "The neck undersizer" part of the die.

January 2, 2017, 02:43 AM	#19
ireload2 Junior member Join Date: December 23, 2016 Posts: 30	Gun plummer You should improve your reading comprehension. No one called it a neck sizer or neck sizing die. I referred to the neck section of a FL sizing die. You know it is that section of a FL die that some people actually use as a neck sizer for a longer round. I can assure you that every FL die that I own (and the number exceeds a 100) has a neck section that sizes the neck diameter just like the body of the sizing chamber sizes the body of the case. I call it neck section even when the case has no proper bottle neck shape. If you have never tried it is perfectly possible to size a case with the die and NO expander. The famous Lee Whack A Mole die does that, bushing dies do that too and you can even hone out the neck of a die to size the neck with no expander. The way you check for inadequate sizing is to check the neck section of the FL die. They can actually be oversize and it makes no difference if you have the right expander ball when the neck is oversize. Comprehende???? >>>>MKL, I don't know what YOU call it, but it is not a neck sizer. There is nothing there to resize the neck to the original dimensions. The expander ball does that. RCBS often includes two different size expander balls for one die, depending on what bullet you want to use.