Cecil the lion - Page 3

lot12001 · August 1, 2015, 04:49 AM

Quote:

My idea of hunting is 1) an actual need, 2) using some level of skill to hunt, 3) taking a precision kill shot with the right equipment to eliminate unethical suffering, and 4) utilizing the meat and carcass, and 5) ensuring it's all legal, necessary, and above board and not just for pure thrill.

Hear, hear. IMO, the traditional hunter demonstrates self-reliance and thoroughness before and beyond the kill. They recognize not just the animal's value for their living but their weapon's purpose as a valued tool. They can take pride in their proficiency but there is also respect and humility.

This other hunter kills for sport, the one synonymous with amusement. The kill is what they really seek for the rush and vigor the moment provides as well as any memento to their glory. To get to that moment when they can point and pull with deadly intent, they'll follow those who have the skill and knowledge to track an outmatched creature they never needed to kill in the first place. People do take pleasure with their firearms at target ranges but the value for one's weapon here is purely as an instrument of death rather than sustenance.

All hail the mighty hunters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRljaYxhVks

**Tom Servo** · August 1, 2015, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Lots of people have tried to be nice here, but pure and simple; this is bloodlust and at best, to be able to hang a picture up in his office and brag to his friends.

Let's be careful how we draw the lines, here.

In my area, we have deer hunters. City folks and northern transplants find the very idea disgraceful.

"Bloodlust! Savages!" come the catcalls from folks who see a buck's head mounted on the living room wall. What those people don't get is this:

the deer population in my area is out of control
this leads to starvation, disease, overgrazing, and car accidents
hunters are the only control for that
every deer hunter I know puts the meat and hide to good use

So, we could argue that it's OK to keep the head as a trophy in this case, right? What if he didn't make use of the meat? Is it still OK because of population control? Who decides?

There are plenty of folks right now who are more than willing to equivocate the deer hunters I know with Walter Palmer.

olddav · August 1, 2015, 06:20 AM

Let me start with a shocking revelation, "I don't care about the Lion"!
What I do care about is the undisclosed number of people murdered every day by ISIS, 50 million + aborted babies, a government that seems to consist of people who have no concept of right or wrong without an accompanying public opinion pole. The lion in question is like every other lion on this earth, a predator that can and will kill men.
In closing let me say, "I don't care about the lion"!

Husqvarna · August 1, 2015, 07:22 AM

Unfathomable that people writing on a gun forum shows such ignorance.

how about showing, if not support, atleast don't -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- on hunters, even the trophy kind, they/we are brothers in arms after all.

gun activists always speaks about logic and rational thinking, well then apply that to this issue dontcha.

More and more info is trickling out that there wasn't even anything illegal about this hunt.

And trophy hunting helps conservation considerably

If hunting in africa isn't managed whole swats of lands are left barren. by having trophy hunting you bring money into the region. the animals are worth more having a pricetag than as just food for the locals, the locals are employed in the industry and africa isn't as wild as you imagine, the populations needs management, ranchers/farmers needs their livestock and produce protected.

And beloved Cecil? how beloved do you think the name of a white imperialist conquerer was by the local population?

leadcounsel · August 1, 2015, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Let me start with a shocking revelation, "I don't care about the Lion"!
What I do care about is the undisclosed number of people murdered every day by ISIS, 50 million + aborted babies, a government that seems to consist of people who have no concept of right or wrong without an accompanying public opinion pole. The lion in question is like every other lion on this earth, a predator that can and will kill men.
In closing let me say, "I don't care about the lion"!

So you only have the capacity to care about human plight, but not animal suffering? How about when the earth is depleted of majestic creatures that future generations never get to experience, directly due to man's greed and selfishness? Yes, I also care about the issues you referenced, but 1) it's irrelevant to this topic and 2) it doesn't mean I also can't care about the plight of the species struggling for survival.

Quote:

More and more info is trickling out that there wasn't even anything illegal about this hunt.

Funny, I was just thinking the opposite. I've been reading more and more damaging and illegal activities surrounding this hunt. From what has been reported even by his guide, this appears highly illegal. For instance, it was reported the land owner did not have permission or a "tag" to hunt a lion on that land. That, my friend, stinks of poaching which carries a 10 year prison sentence in Africa, according to my casual reading and understanding. Not to mention the highly questionable ethics and frowned upon tactics (baiting, luring out of the sanctuary, underpowered bow, shining, etc.) he used in killing Cecil. And he knew immediately what he did was wrong, they tried to hide the evidence, and then he wanted to kill an elephant under questionable ethics.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · August 1, 2015, 08:50 AM

Just a thought or two.
News media refocusing of its citizens: Wag the dog __again.

How silly the US population is to worry over the killing of one lion poached or not in Zimbabwe. (cecil wasn't the last male loin on the planet.)

Seems to me there are better subject matters to focus on:

Freshly murdered human fetus's being chopped up and sold for their body parts. Illegal aliens shooting US citizens at whim. Muslim jihadist on the prowl to kill everyone. Mentally ill finding ways to arm themselves so's to kill others when wanting too. And this country is hung up on the demise of poor old Cecil. Wow!!___Such is life I guess.

waveslayer · August 1, 2015, 08:54 AM

I like how some on here comment I am all for hunting but not just to kill an animal, use all the meat etc... I hope those that have commented haven't shot any animals that are more than 1 to 2 years old... that's when the meat is nice and tender.

as for shooting poor old Cecil, nice good job! and yes to those don't know anything about game management. .. you need to reduce some of the old dominate males to increase reproduction of that species, just like elephants. give the young guys a chance!

As far as how much he paid, he over paid by about 15K in my opinion. but if anything was done illegally then yes he should be held accountable, if it was his guide and he didn't know... then the guide should go down.

rickyrick · August 1, 2015, 08:57 AM

I'll keep my opinions about certain people out of this then. I know the hearts of all aren't noble and I'll stop there.

We all agree, it seems, that the sport of trophy hunting is acceptable as long as some other purpose exists. I have seen no evidence that anyone here feels otherwise.

I fully support anyone's chosen activity that is allowed within the law and does not intentionally extend any suffering of the animal. I support rights of all, whether I agree or not.

This story is not even high on my priority list.

jdscholer · August 1, 2015, 09:27 AM

I don't personally know leadcouncil, but you sound like the "Lead Council" for any anti hunting organization. Your tactics and rhetoric fit the MO.

You've taken an inflammatory news story of questionable truthfulness, and used it to paint the image of sport hunting and sport hunters. Hell, you've come here on a hunting forum, and regurgitated your somewhat skewed definition of sport hunting. You say you are a hunter, and of that I am skeptical. You seem to have no love for the "sport", and your love for certain "majestic creatures" seems based more in Disney than in reality.

The reality is that "Sport Hunting" is a legal and honorable tradition that is responsible for the enhancement of game and non-game species throughout the world. For the last century, legal sport hunting has not been responsible for the endangerment of any species. As a matter of fact the best thing that could happen for the welfare of a species is usually to manage it as a legally hunted animal.

No one is more anti-poaching or against habitat destruction than us despicable "sport hunters". People like you, and your moral outrage do a lot to endanger sport hunters, and little to protect the majestic creatures you claim to love.

Many times in the above posts, the criteria for ethical hunting has mentioned "the need", as if there are tons of people who must fill their larder with the ethically killed bounty of mother nature. Most of us "sport hunters" know what a crock that is, and that the delicious creatures that we fry in our skillets usually come in at about $50 per pound.

This whole "need" claim is a fine tool for defining and removing our rights and activities on several levels. God save me from the do gooders who presume to know what I "need".

I have no actual need of the fine collection of weapons that I own, and I've often heard someone like leadcouncil say "Heck, I'm a gun owner, but no one needs that many." -- Kind of like "Even as a hunter, I find this incident deplorable."

This entire incident may be the incredible fiasco that it is painted to be, but it's way too soon to judge, based upon the sources that the "evidence" comes from. It has certainly provided the fuel to further burn the reputation of hunters and hunting, much the same as a mass murder is used to trash the reputation of gun owners in general.

I find it very troubling to see this thing exploited here on a hunting forum, among responsible and ethical hunters, in a way that undermines the activity that we love. The closest I'll ever come to killing a lion will be with an American cougar, and there are plenty of "bunny huggers" (yeah I said it), who would deny me of that privilidge based upon it's "majestic creature" status. I suppose that if I'm ever successful in that hunt and come here to post pics, I'll be equated to the kid who set the neighborhood cat on fire.

And by the way, I've eaten cougar, and it is very good.

Happy hunting. jd

Art Eatman · August 1, 2015, 09:51 AM

We've done the round-and-round thing with the information at hand, suspect that much of it is. Enough for now. Give it a couple of weeks or so and if worthwhile apparently-factual info shows up, start a new thread.

As far as discussions of hunting ethics, too often those are mostly, "Two, four six, eight: I wanna vent my hate!" That was fine in junior high school, but it's not rational discussion among adults.

August 1, 2015, 06:20 AM	#53
olddav Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Lower Alabama Posts: 727	Let me start with a shocking revelation, "I don't care about the Lion"! What I do care about is the undisclosed number of people murdered every day by ISIS, 50 million + aborted babies, a government that seems to consist of people who have no concept of right or wrong without an accompanying public opinion pole. The lion in question is like every other lion on this earth, a predator that can and will kill men. In closing let me say, "I don't care about the lion"! __________________ Never beat your head against the wall with out a helmet

August 1, 2015, 08:57 AM	#58
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	I'll keep my opinions about certain people out of this then. I know the hearts of all aren't noble and I'll stop there. We all agree, it seems, that the sport of trophy hunting is acceptable as long as some other purpose exists. I have seen no evidence that anyone here feels otherwise. I fully support anyone's chosen activity that is allowed within the law and does not intentionally extend any suffering of the animal. I support rights of all, whether I agree or not. This story is not even high on my priority list. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

August 1, 2015, 09:27 AM	#59
jdscholer Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jefferson State Posts: 1,197	I don't personally know leadcouncil, but you sound like the "Lead Council" for any anti hunting organization. Your tactics and rhetoric fit the MO. You've taken an inflammatory news story of questionable truthfulness, and used it to paint the image of sport hunting and sport hunters. Hell, you've come here on a hunting forum, and regurgitated your somewhat skewed definition of sport hunting. You say you are a hunter, and of that I am skeptical. You seem to have no love for the "sport", and your love for certain "majestic creatures" seems based more in Disney than in reality. The reality is that "Sport Hunting" is a legal and honorable tradition that is responsible for the enhancement of game and non-game species throughout the world. For the last century, legal sport hunting has not been responsible for the endangerment of any species. As a matter of fact the best thing that could happen for the welfare of a species is usually to manage it as a legally hunted animal. No one is more anti-poaching or against habitat destruction than us despicable "sport hunters". People like you, and your moral outrage do a lot to endanger sport hunters, and little to protect the majestic creatures you claim to love. Many times in the above posts, the criteria for ethical hunting has mentioned "the need", as if there are tons of people who must fill their larder with the ethically killed bounty of mother nature. Most of us "sport hunters" know what a crock that is, and that the delicious creatures that we fry in our skillets usually come in at about $50 per pound. This whole "need" claim is a fine tool for defining and removing our rights and activities on several levels. God save me from the do gooders who presume to know what I "need". I have no actual need of the fine collection of weapons that I own, and I've often heard someone like leadcouncil say "Heck, I'm a gun owner, but no one needs that many." -- Kind of like "Even as a hunter, I find this incident deplorable." This entire incident may be the incredible fiasco that it is painted to be, but it's way too soon to judge, based upon the sources that the "evidence" comes from. It has certainly provided the fuel to further burn the reputation of hunters and hunting, much the same as a mass murder is used to trash the reputation of gun owners in general. I find it very troubling to see this thing exploited here on a hunting forum, among responsible and ethical hunters, in a way that undermines the activity that we love. The closest I'll ever come to killing a lion will be with an American cougar, and there are plenty of "bunny huggers" (yeah I said it), who would deny me of that privilidge based upon it's "majestic creature" status. I suppose that if I'm ever successful in that hunt and come here to post pics, I'll be equated to the kid who set the neighborhood cat on fire. And by the way, I've eaten cougar, and it is very good. Happy hunting. jd __________________ "We're all dummies, just in different ways." Old Okie Philosopher

August 1, 2015, 07:22 AM	#54
Husqvarna Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2012 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,000	Unfathomable that people writing on a gun forum shows such ignorance. how about showing, if not support, atleast don't -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- on hunters, even the trophy kind, they/we are brothers in arms after all. gun activists always speaks about logic and rational thinking, well then apply that to this issue dontcha. More and more info is trickling out that there wasn't even anything illegal about this hunt. And trophy hunting helps conservation considerably If hunting in africa isn't managed whole swats of lands are left barren. by having trophy hunting you bring money into the region. the animals are worth more having a pricetag than as just food for the locals, the locals are employed in the industry and africa isn't as wild as you imagine, the populations needs management, ranchers/farmers needs their livestock and produce protected. And beloved Cecil? how beloved do you think the name of a white imperialist conquerer was by the local population?

August 1, 2015, 08:50 AM	#56
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Just a thought or two. News media refocusing of its citizens: Wag the dog __again. How silly the US population is to worry over the killing of one lion poached or not in Zimbabwe. (cecil wasn't the last male loin on the planet.) Seems to me there are better subject matters to focus on: Freshly murdered human fetus's being chopped up and sold for their body parts. Illegal aliens shooting US citizens at whim. Muslim jihadist on the prowl to kill everyone. Mentally ill finding ways to arm themselves so's to kill others when wanting too. And this country is hung up on the demise of poor old Cecil. Wow!!___Such is life I guess.

August 1, 2015, 08:54 AM	#57
waveslayer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2013 Posts: 246	I like how some on here comment I am all for hunting but not just to kill an animal, use all the meat etc... I hope those that have commented haven't shot any animals that are more than 1 to 2 years old... that's when the meat is nice and tender. as for shooting poor old Cecil, nice good job! and yes to those don't know anything about game management. .. you need to reduce some of the old dominate males to increase reproduction of that species, just like elephants. give the young guys a chance! As far as how much he paid, he over paid by about 15K in my opinion. but if anything was done illegally then yes he should be held accountable, if it was his guide and he didn't know... then the guide should go down.

August 1, 2015, 09:51 AM	#60
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	We've done the round-and-round thing with the information at hand, suspect that much of it is. Enough for now. Give it a couple of weeks or so and if worthwhile apparently-factual info shows up, start a new thread. As far as discussions of hunting ethics, too often those are mostly, "Two, four six, eight: I wanna vent my hate!" That was fine in junior high school, but it's not rational discussion among adults.