358 winchester

[oldbear1950]

Does anyone have any experience with this caliber? I know is based on the 308 winchester case, like the 35 Whelen is based on the 06 case.
But that is about all I know

[44 AMP]

Same .35 cal bullets as the Whelen, .350 Rem mag and .35 Rem. 3-400fps faster than the .35Rem (200gr) and 1-200fps slower than the Whelen or Rem Mag with the same bullet. 3-400fps slower than the .358 Norma Mag.

Good round, higher pressure than .35 Rem, works in short actions (.308 length) standard, not magnum case head size. Bolt, pump semi, and some box magazine lever guns, so not restricted to blunt bullets like tube fed levers.

[FrankenMauser]

Snappy recoil, but effective on game.
Many bullets over 200-225 gr are difficult to fit into a standard short action magazine well. To get the most out of the cartridge, it is better off in a full length action with the magazine partially blocked. But, then you might as well go to .35 Whelen...

.

*.35 Whelen is based on .30-03 (or, arguably, .30-01), not .30-06.

[taylorce1]

I had one in a Savage 99, and only tried 200 grain SP bullets in it. I couldn't get it to shoot the way I wanted, and had several scope failures with the rifle. I really wanted to love the rifle, but couldnt. I really don't have enough experience with the cartridge to form anything but a neutral opinion of it.

[44 AMP]

*.35 Whelen is based on .30-03 (or, arguably, .30-01), not .30-06.

"arguably", everything with the common .473 head size is based on the 8mm Mauser, and everything with the .532" belted head size is based on the .375 H&H.

Some longer, some shorter, shouldered or straight, its the same family tree, and all can be considered "based on" the oldest member of that family.

[stagpanther]

I built an AR10 chambered in 358 win--225 gr sierra gameking is the best all-around bullet I ever used in the 358 win.

3....2....1 "But wait--there's 338 Federal!"

[stagpanther]

*.35 Whelen is based on .30-03 (or, arguably, .30-01), not .30-06.

This is a matter of some debate from what I understand. While Whelen Townsend's original wildcat effort may have used the other cases which are not 30-06-based (but they themselves may have given rise to the 30-06); it seems pretty well settled that Griffin & Howe finalized the 30-06 parented .358 which eventually became the commercial 35 whelen. No?

[stagpanther]

Back to the subject at hand--the 358 win like the 35 whelen delivers a huge punch for it's parent case, provided one understands the trajectory is going to arc and efficiency drops off pretty fast at moderate range, I personally wouldn't use it on large game anywhere past 250 yards. Here's some good info.

[FrankenMauser]

"arguably", everything with the common .473 head size is based on the 8mm Mauser

That level and avenue of pedantry ends up failing. The (rimless) x57 Mauser family has a .470" case head. (Or .471", depending upon data source.)
I understand the point, and agree. I have gone down that road in the past, while people argued parent cases. But the Mauser case head *is* a different size. Very close, but not the same.

it seems pretty well settled that Griffin & Howe finalized the 30-06 parented .358 which eventually became the commercial 35 whelen. No?

Colloquially? Yes.
Practically? No.
If you form .35 Whelen from .30-06, you don't get .35 Whelen proper. You get .35 Whelen with a short neck.
We can't really "stretch" a case, as people claim was done to .300 Savage to create .308W/7.62x51. (A lot of people need to do some reading. It isn't hard to find the information.)

That is why Remington was drawing their .35 Whelen brass as unmarked, cylindrical .280 Rem, before kicking it over to a final forming and stamping process for .35 Whelen. They needed that .30-03/.280/.270 neck length, but the volume was low enough to not justify a full set of tooling.
(Frank Zeglin measured several original Griffin & Howe chambers and verified that they were cut for .30-03 length necks.)


There is, however, no obvious alternative for .358 Win, and we know quite well what Winchester used for the parent case. If you neck .308 Win up for .358 Win, you get a short neck (by 0.010-0.014", in my experience). That's just life. For full-length cases, one must buy factory .358 Win brass or deal with the fun of finding a longer cartridge to cut down, ream, and deal with a likely disparity in case volume.

Reading about the problems that so many people have while forming .358 Win from old, abused range brass can be quite comical.
(Most of them just need to anneal, but that seems like black magic on many forums.)

[44 AMP]

We can't really "stretch" a case,...

We. as reloaders can't stretch a case, other than squeezing it down so its a little longer along with smaller diameter, but the factory drawing process can.

Which is why you get "full length" from new factory brass but a different length when you convert the "parent" case, up or down in caliber.

[Crankylove]

I’ve got a Ruger Hawkeye in .358 Win.

Had it 15 years or so, used it on Elk, and Antelope.

I’ve loaded 200, 220, and 225’s for it, settled on 250’s for two reasons.

1). My rifle does not like the shorter cartridge length of the 200 and 220’s. Feeds from one side of the magazine fine, but from the other they jump to the side, and the bullet gets hung up on the side of the barrel/chamber. Some 225’s (depending on bullet brand/design) feed fine, some don’t.

2). I have an ‘06 to shoot 165’s-180’s, if I want a “lighter” bullet, I’ll shoot that rifle. And, the 250’s I shoot (250 grain Cor-lokt) shoot very well in my rifle.

With the 250’s, pushed by W748, I get about 2,200-2,250 fps, and can shoot out to 200ish yards before they start dropping too quick. But, I bought it as a short range rifle, so that doesn’t bother me. I have other rifles for speed and/or longer distance.

I have 100 pieces of factory brass, but most is formed from .308/7mm-08 range pickup.

I bought it cause I was looking for a heavier big game cartridge, but didn’t want, or need some super-duper-ultra mag, with tons of recoil, long barrel, and expensive ammo. I specifically ruled out anything with a belted case, or “magnum” in the name. .358 Win also has the advantage or fitting in a short action rifle.

Frankenmauser dosent like the feel of the recoil on mine, but I don’t find it unpleasant at all.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Snappy recoil, but effective on game.
Many bullets over 200-225 gr are difficult to fit into a standard short action magazine well. To get the most out of the cartridge, it is better off in a full length action with the magazine partially blocked. But, then you might as well go to .35 Whelen...

.

*.35 Whelen is based on .30-03 (or, arguably, .30-01), not .30-06.

James Howe necked up a .30-06 case to make the .35 Whelen.

[FrankenMauser]

Measurements of surviving cases, reloading dies, and chamber casts all disagree.

[stagpanther]

I read an account someplace (can't remember where ) that Howe worked on 2 different configurations using different parent cases; but eventually settled on the 30-06 as the "final" parent. Not saying that's the gospel truth.

[Paul B.]

I don't have much experience with the .358 but I do have several rifles chambered to the cartridge. I haven't done much with it because a few .35 Whelens got in the way and I worked with them instead.

I did get interested in the .358 on and elk hunt in Western Washington. I was sitting on a stand next to a swamp hoping for a legal elk to pass by. No such luck. I did have lots of time to contemplate my sins and other thing a non-relative importance but one thing did stick in my mind. A short relatively lightweight rifle chambered to the .358 Win. with something like a 250 gr. bullet just might be the ideal round for where I was hunting that day. At no time on that stand could I see much farther that about 100 yards, if that far out. I decided that I would try to chase a rifle in .358 down when I got back home.

I lucked out about two weeks later and got a Ruger tang safety NIB for $250. Got dies and bullets as well and even got a supply of factory ammo which BTW, never did shoot well in any of my .258 rifles. (200 gr. Silvertips) I'm not sure is the twist rate in the two Ruger 77s at 1in16" twist is the problem but neither rifle will do better than 2.5 to 3.0" and much of the time not even that good. Surprisingly enough, the The Browning BLR after a bit of tinkering and the Savage M99 are both for the most part one inch shooters depending on the bullets used.

Most load work at the time was with W748 and some H4895. I really should get off the stick and try and see if I can find something that works better in the M77s.
Paul B.

[stagpanther]

In my AR 10 I have a very nice 358 win load of around 48 grs of AA 2520 driving a 225 gameking. It's very accurate for a big hunting bullet, and while not very sexy in velocity it leaves the muzzle with almost 3,000 ft lbs of energy; very respectable for anything in a 308 parented case. As with any internet load recommendation--work your way up to this (though QL shows 48 grs well under max pressure; though slightly compressed).

[Crankylove]

3....2....1 "But wait--there's 338 Federal!"
__________________

I have one of those too. Built an AR10 for it. Haven’t shot it much, but like it so far. Going lighter on that one, 185’s mostly, with formed cases. Won’t be ready for deer or elk hunt this year (haven’t got it sighted in with the suppressor, and won’t have time before the hunt, I leave in 2 days), but it’ll go next year. Maybe I can snag a speed goat with it as well.

[stagpanther]

I have one of those too. Built an AR10 for it. Haven’t shot it much, but like it so far. Going lighter on that one, 185’s mostly, with formed cases. Won’t be ready for deer or elk hunt this year (haven’t got it sighted in with the suppressor, and won’t have time before the hunt, I leave in 2 days), but it’ll go next year. Maybe I can snag a speed goat with it as well.

I built a 338 Fed AR as well--you mention 185 gr projectiles; the woodleigh hunting bullet I found was perfect in the 338 fed being able to fit nicely within the COL confines of the magazine (though I haven't shot game with it) and it cycles easily. The 200 gr hot cor was another one that I found ideal for a 338 fed AR.

[Crankylove]

you mention 185 gr projectiles; the woodleigh hunting bullet I found was perfect in the 338 fed being able to fit nicely within the COL confines of the magazine (though I haven't shot game with it) and it cycles easily. The 200 gr hot cor was another one that I found ideal for a 338

Right now I’m running some “factory overrun” 185 grain bonded soft points from midway. They look like a Speer bullet, but I have no idea who the manufacturer is. But, they were dirt cheap, and shoot/function well.

[stagpanther]

I looked at Midway and those appear to be a bonded softpoint of some sort--pretty unusual in that they have a cannelure as well. Hornady occasionally "drifts" interlocks in and out of production.

[Crankylove]

Not sure what they have now, but I picked mine up about about a year ago. 6 boxes of 185’s, for $13 each. Couldn’t say no to that.

Nobody local had anything under 200 grain that wasn’t a solid (Barnes or woodleigh), and I’m cheap, and didn’t want to pay for those bullets (as good as they are).

[Mike Irwin]

"*.35 Whelen is based on .30-03 (or, arguably, .30-01), not .30-06. "

Yeah.... decidedly NOT based on the .30-01.

The .30-01 was a complete and total dead end. It was never manufactured in quantity, it was never manufactured commercially, and it was extinct by the time the .35 Whelen was first designed.

The .30-01's primary characteristic was that the rim was substantially thicker than the rim that was finally adopted in the .30-03 cartridge.

As for whether Whelen based the case on the .30-03 or the .30-06 case... either could be the case, actually.

First, I personally subscribe to the theory that Whelen did NOT design the cartridge, James Howe did and it was named for Whelen. Whelen even said as much in his book "The Hunting Rifle: Design, Selection, Ballistics, Marksmanship."

But, I think it's more likely that Howe DID start with the .30-06 case, not the .30-03, because at the time the cartridge was designed, he was working at Frankford Arsenal (as was Whelen) and would have had TONS of .30-06 brass available to him with which to experiment.

.30-03 brass, on the other hand? Not so much. It had been out of government production for almost 2 decades at that point. Winchester (I believe) was still manufacturing .30-03 brass/cartridges to supply the Winchester Model 95 rifles so chambered (guess what case the .270 Winchester was based on?), but yearly production was tiny and the .30-03 would go extinct in a few years.

Yes, directly necking up .30-06 brass to .35 will shorten the case. But guess what Howe/Whelen had TONS of at hand when the .35 Whelen was being developed?

Arsenal produced formed .30-06 cases that hadn't had the final neck trim done.

Necking an untrimmed .30-06 case up to .35 caliber and then final trimming to 2.494 is a very simple thing.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

[Blue Duck]

I had one in a Browning BLR, an old one, made in Belgium, with the rounded mag. It was nicely accurate, but I gave up on it because it wasn't reliable in feeding from the magazine. If you was to buy a later BLR with the flat bottom mag, It will probably feed just fine.

I had and still have a Remington 700 Classic in 350 REM Mag and I like that caliber probably better, and you could load it down a little and get 358 balistics pretty easy. I have taken a lot of game with the 350 mag and it is a killer. Either caliber, you better plan on reloading for it, as factory ammo is scarce. In the 350 I liked the 200 grain Seirra round nose bullet, and the 180 grain Speer pointed soft point. My gun would place both on target with same point of impact at 200 yards. I would usually carry both with me, and slip a 180 grainer in there, if I had a 250 to 300 yard shot.

But I haven't used it much in the last few years, because I got lazy and I mostly just hunt deer and hogs anyway, and the plain old .308 Winchester with 180 grain bullets with kill anything I need to kill inside of 300 yards or even farther.

[Mike Irwin]

Friend had a Remington... 600? 660? in .350 Rem Mag.

The thing was absolute MURDER with full power ammo. Kicked like an SOB.

He downloaded it .358 Win. levels. It really tamed the recoil and he was highly successful with it as a deer rifle.


Edit in: It was a 660 Mohawk. It had the short carbine barrel. Muzzle blast was also quite unpleasant.

[jmr40]

The 350 Rem Mag duplicated 35 Whelen performance but from a short action rifle. I've never messed with the 350 RM nor the 358, but I have owned a 35 Whelen. The 35 Whelen exceeds 300 WM recoil. I'd imagine that can be pretty brutal in a lightweight rifle.