SIG 1911 Quality?

[Model12Win]

Well hi, gang!

Guys I am wondering about the overall quality and reliability of the SIG 1911s. I am in the market for a new "tactical" 1911 to compliment my GI style Springfield. The SIG TACOPS looks like a very cool gun for sure and has all the features I want and seems competitively priced compared to say for example Colts.

So anyone have anything to say on the subject of SIG 1911s, good or bad? Should I get one?

Thanks and THANK YOU to all veterans, past and present, for everything. It is because of you that I can have guns in the first place!

M12

[WVsig]

They are ok. I am not a fan of the external extractor. It is not a user serviceable part. If it fails you have to send it into the factory. Over Sigs quality is pretty good but they would not be my first choice in a 1911. They are not bad guns but there are better in the same price range IMHO.

What are they going for? What is your budget for the gun and maybe we can make other recommendations.

[JKP]

I have about 2000 rounds through my ultra 1911 in 9mm without a hitch. Much better than the first 2000 rounds through my Colt 45acp. Trigger is better than the Springfield I was originally looking at.

[presspics]

I've owned a few of the SIG 1911's. In my opinion they are by far the best bang for the buck that you can get and the quality, fit and finish is beautiful.All have been accurate and reliable My last 1911 I was determined to own a Colt. I shopped around and looked at 6 or 7 Colt's in my area. Every single one of them had something wrong with it. All little things like lousy triggers or loose grip safeties. I bought the best one and I kept it for all of 2 weeks before selling it and getting another SIG.

[WVsig]

Sig 1911s are like Kimbers, Cohen is behind that, they are full of MIM and cast parts. Things like hammer, mag release, slide stop etc... are all MIM or cast. Ever since Sig got into the 1911 game they have been replacing barstock parts with MIM in a race to the bottom in terms of cost while maximizing profits. This does not make them bad. MIM and cast can and does work.

IMHO their internal quality does not meet the price point. You are paying a lot for the name and the flash. There are fancy finishes, grips and names for what are all essential the same pistol. They are selling you the sizzle and delivering a mediocre steak. YMMV

The Sig Tacops sells for about $1000-$1100 depending on where you get it. If I were buying a $1000 1911 right now it would not be the Tacops. The best value in 1911s these days is Dan Wesson IMHO.

[mikejonestkd]

If I had a choice between a Sig TACOPS or a Colt Combat Elite I would choose the Colt. Dan Wesson is a very nice 1911 for the money too

WVsig's post pretty much mirrored what I would have posted about Sig 1911.

[JDBerg]

Although the idea of a 1911 with an accessory rail just doesn’t do it for me personally, I had a chance to try out a Springfield TRP Operator a short while ago and I could definitely live with the rail on this one;

http://www.springfield-armory.com/pr...sponse-pistol/

[SA1911]

If Sig's name is on it, it'll be of excellent quality.

Another poster posted of external extractor. I have a few Sigs, all with eternal extractors. Not a single one has ever failed to do a darn thing except shoot with 100% reliability.

This is merely an opinion in the form of a guess: the most reliable handgun ever manufactured, including revolvers, is the Sig P229. The Sig P229 has an external extractor.

I have an S&W 1911, the model right after the Billboard model. I'd pit it against ANY 1911 regardless of cost. When S&W introduced its 1911 rendition with external extractor, many "experts" who were expert in some nebulous object other than handguns predicted extractor failures. It never happened!!!

Just a guess: 80% of cops' handguns have external extractors, and that's all Western countries' cops. If external extractors weren't reliable, cops wouldn't carry handguns with external extractors.

I've recently bought a Springfield Armory 1911 Loaded Model. It has an internal extractor. So far, it's been flawless. But I could never write that it's superior in any way to a 1911 with an external extractor.

Browning's 1911 prototype had external extractor.

Quality of gun more than extractor location will determine reliability.

If you like the Sig that has caught your eye, buy it.

I wish you best of luck.

[SA1911]

WVsig,

The P229 & P239 have forged slides. I believe the P220 does as well, but don't quote me on that one.

The P226 used to have stamped slides. Big deal. They were good for 40K 9MM rounds before some showed stress cracks. Now I believe the Sig P226 slide is milled from stainless steel stock.

[Safestuffer]

I am not impressed with my tacpac railed 1911. It had to be sent back to Sig to have the extractor adjusted and still failed to feed reloads that my colt 1991a1 and usp45 eat just fine. A 50% ftf rate is embarrassing. My 200gr swc reloads pass the plunk test fine in the tacpac, it just chokes miserably on them.

[glockman55]

Attachment 106151 My Sig Ultra 1911..45acp is one of my favorite 1911's...Colt. Para, Springfield. are very nice as well.. but the Ultra is nice to carry..plus I have over 800 rds through it, likes everything I feed it.

[rodfac]

My Sig 1911RCS is as good as any Colt I've ever owned,,,,over a dozen in the last 50 years, and that includes a pair of Series 70 Gold Cups.

The RCS model, sadly now discontinued, sports an alloy frame, checkered on the front and rear of the grip, an Officer's model grip length (1/4" shorter than the standard for 1911's), novak sights, a match stainless bbl, and all the good things you'd want in a carry gun. Accuracy runs to ~2" at 25 yds with any good ammunition. It's my day to day pick if going to the big city...Rod

[dgludwig]

Dollar for dollar, in terms of quality of workmanship, material and finish, reliability, accuracy and durability; all the things that really count; in my experience, SIG makes the very best 1911 style pistol you can buy. They also have a better than average history of customer service, imo.

[JDBerg]

Originally Posted by dgludwig:

Dollar for dollar, in terms of quality of workmanship, material and finish, reliability, accuracy and durability; all the things that really count; in my experience, SIG makes the very best 1911 style pistol you can buy. They also have a better than average history of customer service, imo.

In my experience with 7 different 1911 model pistols, 4 of which I still own, I’m still not qualified to judge who makes the best 1911 in all the things that really count. I do have a Dan Wesson Valor and an STI Trojan 9mm and I think these are both pretty good pistols all things considered.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by SA1911

If Sig's name is on it, it'll be of excellent quality.

Another poster posted of external extractor. I have a few Sigs, all with eternal extractors. Not a single one has ever failed to do a darn thing except shoot with 100% reliability.

This is merely an opinion in the form of a guess: the most reliable handgun ever manufactured, including revolvers, is the Sig P229. The Sig P229 has an external extractor.

I have an S&W 1911, the model right after the Billboard model. I'd pit it against ANY 1911 regardless of cost. When S&W introduced its 1911 rendition with external extractor, many "experts" who were expert in some nebulous object other than handguns predicted extractor failures. It never happened!!!

Just a guess: 80% of cops' handguns have external extractors, and that's all Western countries' cops. If external extractors weren't reliable, cops wouldn't carry handguns with external extractors.

I've recently bought a Springfield Armory 1911 Loaded Model. It has an internal extractor. So far, it's been flawless. But I could never write that it's superior in any way to a 1911 with an external extractor.

Browning's 1911 prototype had external extractor.

Quality of gun more than extractor location will determine reliability.

If you like the Sig that has caught your eye, buy it.

I wish you best of luck.

My original GSR's extractor pin walked out on me. I had to send it back to the factory to have it replaced. The P series Sigs have no bearing on the Sig 1911. The P series was developed long before Sig got into the 1911 game. Also if you know your P series history you know that as soon as Cohen became the CEO they have also taken every possible step to cheapen the production of those pistols as well.

I am not sure if you know your 1911 history but the hate of the external extractor comes from Kimber not S&W. Kimber switched to the external extractor and it failed so bad they had to move back to the internal because their rep was so damaged and their CS could not handle the flow of issues. Guess who ran Kimber when that happened????

Also the 1911 as developed and produced under JMB direction had and internal extractor. It is a user serviceable and user replaceable part. It has served people well for over 100 years.

There were several other guns which lead to the the gun which we call the M1911. Some had internal extractors others had internal extractors but the pistol which was adopted and produced as the M1911 has and internal extractor.

The Model 1910 .45 ACP (12 produced (http://www.coltautos.com/1910cigc.htm)) had an internal extractor.



The Model 1909 .45 ACP (23 produced (http://www.coltautos.com/1909_cigc.htm)) had an external extractor.



The Model 1907 .45 ACP (207 produced (http://www.coltautos.com/1907cigc.htm)) had an external extractor.



There is nothing wrong with the concept of an external extractor but they are not needed in a 1911. They are an solution looking for a problem. Companies like S&W & Sig use them for parts commonality and economy of scale not because they are better.

You do know that Sig P series guns used to have internal extractors but it was cheaper to put external extractors into milled stainless steel slides. If you don't know you history then you don't know your future. You seem not to know your past.... If you are going to try to teach people a history lesson you should probably get your facts straight.

It is great you like your S&W but it is a mid to low level 1911 when you compare it to the full spectrum of what is available. The same holds true for the Sig. They are decent mid level guns but they are nothing special.

The Sig of today is not the Sig of old. They still make pretty good guns but they can not justify the high cost when you look closely at the materials that are used and the products that are produced.

[Fishbed77]

If Sig's name is on it, it'll be of excellent quality.

Well... except for the SIG 556, SIG 556xi, early Cohen-era US-made P-series pistols, etc...

In that price range, I'd be looking hard at the Colt Rail Gun. More forged parts, better QC, and better resale (though I never sell my guns). Right now Colt is making some of the best 1911s in their history, and their prices are lower than they've been in many years.

[marine6680]

A friend owns one. It seems well made from what I have seen.

They don't fit standard 1912 holsters, at least not kydex or Ridgid leather... As the slide is more squared off on top than rounded.

[presspics]

WVSig, I'd have to take issue with a couple of your points. The 1911 had an internal extractor but that doesn't mean that it's superior. Many 1911 issues are traced back to an extractor that has lost it's adjustment or worn out. It's also not truly an end user serviceable part because it does take a bit of knowledge and a little voodoo to tune it properly. The external extractor is more end user serviceable because there is no tuning involved.

Kimber did indeed screw up their external extractor design. Cohen was in charge of Kimber at the time. However you fail to recognize that the SIG extractor is a completely different design from Kimbers. The SIG extractor is also known to be well designed and reliable. Some people don't like that they are MIM but there have been no issues and if you don't like the MIM one then a tool steel version is readily available from EGW. It wasn't a solution looking for a problem. It really was a solution to a long known 1911 weakness.

I understand that you don't like Cohen. Neither do I. He's made some crappy decisions at SIG. Their 1911 line is NOT one of them.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by presspics

WVSig, I'd have to take issue with a couple of your points. The 1911 had an internal extractor but that doesn't mean that it's superior. Many 1911 issues are traced back to an extractor that has lost it's adjustment or worn out. It's also not truly an end user serviceable part because it does take a bit of knowledge and a little voodoo to tune it properly. The external extractor is more end user serviceable because there is no tuning involved.

Kimber did indeed screw up their external extractor design. Cohen was in charge of Kimber at the time. However you fail to recognize that the SIG extractor is a completely different design from Kimbers. The SIG extractor is also known to be well designed and reliable. Some people don't like that they are MIM but there have been no issues and if you don't like the MIM one then a tool steel version is readily available from EGW. It wasn't a solution looking for a problem. It really was a solution to a long known 1911 weakness.

I understand that you don't like Cohen. Neither do I. He's made some crappy decisions at SIG. Their 1911 line is NOT one of them.

Sig had trouble with the extractors on the GSR and to this day has issues here and there which require the gun to go back to the factory. They will not allow the end user to install an external extractor.

The also had trouble with the external extractor on the P series guns when they switch the classic guns like the P220 and P226 to the external design. Your statement that the Sig external extractor is a proven reliable design came at a cost. Ask anyone who owned and early GSR or P2220 stainless. They will tell you where issues with the design which paying customers beta tested for Sig. All of this under Cohen.

The internal extractor in the 1911 is not perfect but with a little bit of knowledge most end users can tweak the extractor or replace it without help of the factory. For me this is a huge upside to the internal design. It allows you to get a part quickly swap it out and move on. Clearly YMMV.

For you to say that the 1911 was not a crappy Cohen decision I would agree that todays guns are pretty good, but over priced. They were original pieces of crap. They either ran great and were tack drivers or they sucked. Mine was a tack driver but the extractor had to be replaced because the pin was walking out. There were no holsters for them back then and I let it go. It took years for them to get the platform to a reliable line. A Sig was a good idea poorly executed in the beginning by Cohen Sig.

As I said in the beginning they are decent 1911s but are overpriced for what you get when you did down beneath the pretty grips and finishes. Kind of just like Kimber.

[dgludwig]

It's probably time that some of us get past the supposed "evil Cohen era" and deal with what is instead of what once might have been. That horse has been beaten into equine glue long enough now; move on I say, nothing of contemporary relevance worth seeing anymore.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by dgludwig

It's probably time that some of us get past the supposed "evil Cohen era" and deal with what is instead of what once might have been. That horse has been beaten into equine glue long enough now; move on I say, nothing of contemporary relevance worth seeing anymore.

Right because there was not just a massive recall of their most popular polymer pistol? Yeah Sig is running on all cylinders. They are no longer beta testing guns on paying consumers like the, GSR, P250, P320, MPX, P238, 556xi, 556 the list goes on an on. Name one product introduced in the Cohen era that did not have a hiccup that resulted in a modification of the platform in order to get it to run properly. Name one Sig product that has not been cheapened from its original form in order to maximize profits not make the gun better.

Sorry but the philosophy that drives Sig these days is 100% relevant. Look at how they run their factory these days. Ask people who live in the area what it is like to work for Sig. Ask them about the care and craftsmanship that goes into the pistols flying down the assembly line. All of these things are Cohen's doing. I give him credit he saved the company but today's Sig is not the Sig of old. They are still trading on the old reputation while cranking middle of the road product at a premium price.

You can choose to turn the other cheek but lots of other people are not as willing. I waited almost a year after their intro to buy a P320. Even then I was subject to a recall. I broke my own personal rule no more new Sig products and guess what I got burned but I guess you are right.

[dgludwig]

My only point is that your ongoing, years long vendetta against the "new" SIG and its minions has been duly noted countless times but is becoming a mite tiresome for some of us to hear ad infinitum. You don't like the "new" SIG, fine. You blame Cohen for its perceived shortcomings, we get it and have for some time. I'm only suggesting that you try to get past your apparent heartfelt grievances and take up a new cause.
You want to keep stirring the pot and waste no opportunity to further malign SIG pistols, that's your business of course. Just know that you are not always preaching to the choir and, predicated on the positive experiences some of us have had with SIG products through the years and up to the present time, never will.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by dgludwig

My only point is that your ongoing, years long vendetta against the "new" SIG and its minions has been duly noted countless times but is becoming a mite tiresome for some of us to hear ad infinitum. You don't like the "new" SIG, fine. You blame Cohen for its perceived shortcomings, we get it and have for some time. I'm only suggesting that you try to get past your apparent heartfelt grievances and take up a new cause.
You want to keep stirring the pot and waste no opportunity to further malign SIG pistols, that's your business of course. Just know that you are not always preaching to the choir and, predicated on the positive experiences some of us have had with SIG products through the years and up to the present time, never will.

So I should just not post my thoughts on Sig because they run counter to yours? IF you actually read what I write 99/% of the time I say that Sigs are decent guns. That the chances of getting a good running Sig is higher than getting a bad one, unless its got a polymer lower and you drop it at a 30 degree angle on the back of the slide. LMAO.

What I do preach is do not believe the hype. There was a time when Sig made an superior product but those days are long gone. It is not that Sig are bad. I still have tons of the in the safe, most likely more than you, but I look at them objectively not as a fan anymore. They are above avg guns selling at a premium price. When people like you claim they are the best in their class I take issue with it because that has simply not been my experience with their current offering and if you look at this thread and other like it you will find that my experience is not the outlier you are attempting to portray it as.

Again name a one Sig release in the last 10 years that did not have teething issues. That was not beta tested on paying consumers. Please name one because off the top of my head I cannot think of a single one. The OP asked about Sig 1911 quality. I have offered my opinion just as you have offered yours.

What I find is that often those who started shooting Sigs in the Cohen era are happy with them and believe that they are still premium product and that they are getting good value for the money. People who have shot Sigs for 20+ years do not see it that way. They have seen the trend and call Sig out for their short comings because they know what the name Sig Sauer used to represent. Clearly YMMV

[dgludwig]

What I do preach is do not believe the hype.

Well, keep on preaching (ranting) if that makes you feel better. But continuing to say the same thing over and over and over again might serve your purpose but it doesn't necessarily add to validating your opinion.

And, following my own advice, I won't keep repeating myself here so, adios, my friend. As an aside, my wife and I will be traveling to your fine state later today to celebrate the Thanksgiving holidays with our daughters, son-in-laws and grandchildren, living outside of Raleigh (Apex) and outside of Charlotte (Waxhaw).

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and to all of the many fine people who frequent The Firing Line!

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by dgludwig

Well, keep on preaching (ranting) if that makes you feel better. But continuing to say the same thing over and over and over again might serve your purpose but it doesn't necessarily add to validating your opinion.

And, following my own advice, I won't keep repeating myself here so, adios, my friend. As an aside, my wife and I will be traveling to your fine state later today to celebrate the Thanksgiving holidays with our daughters, son-in-laws and grandchildren, living outside of Raleigh (Apex) and outside of Charlotte (Waxhaw).

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and to all of the many fine people who frequent The Firing Line!

Honestly what brings out my “standard rants” are comments are statements like “If Sig's name is on it, it'll be of excellent quality.” They are not based in reality. The Sig name is on a lot of mediocre stuf these days. Rant over.

I am not tooo far from Charlotte a little longer from Apex. Not too far from Asheville. Enjoy your holiday and safe travels.