Problem with a conversion cylinder

Centurion · September 12, 2017, 05:18 PM

Bought a new pietta new army remington copy. With the conventional cylinders it functions normally...but when I use the conversion cylinder from my pietta bison it doesn't move. And only with the conversion cylinder because the standard one does function very well.
Standard cylinders are six shooters, conversion one is for five.
Wich could be the problem? Maybe have to change the bolt? In any case it is very strange that all cylinders work in my bison but only the C&B ones function in this NMA...

Any suggestion?

Trum4n1208 · September 12, 2017, 05:20 PM

I can't help you with your issue, but if that Pietta Bison is a brass frame then I HIGHLY recommend you not use a conversion cylinder in it. That brass frame won't stand up to much cartridge use, ESPECIALLY with smokeless ammunition. At best you'll ruin your gun, and at worse, you'll hurt yourself or someone else.

noelf2 · September 12, 2017, 05:46 PM

Probably not the bolt. More likely, the hand. Try swapping hands with the bison.

Centurion · September 12, 2017, 05:56 PM

I did it...and the problem remains...

noelf2 · September 13, 2017, 07:53 AM

There could be several things all contributing to the problem. Bolt issues usually create a lockup/timing problem, but the cylinder should still rotate as long as the bolt isn't engaging a stop notch when the hammer is down. If the bolt isn't causing a lockup problem with one cylinder, it shouldn't be a problem with another. Is the conversion cylinder a Howell type, or Kirst? If the cylinder is a much tighter fit, it's ratchet face is probably binding the hand. You may want to send it off to be fitted by Howell, Taylors, Kirst, depending on who made it.

EphraimKibbey · September 13, 2017, 10:41 AM

Is the conversion cylinder not moving in that:
1. it is stuck by binding inside the frame?
2. it is loose and slides forward away from the hand?
3. the bolt stop is stuck in a too narrow notch?
If you have a newly made Pietta, I hear they reconfigured the colt grip tail so maybe they changed something else as well in their NMA's.
Measure the cylinders and compare their rear ratchets.
When you find the difference, you will know where to seek a remedy.

As was mentioned above, all conversion cylinders come with a warning that they are not to be used in brass frames!!!

Centurion · September 13, 2017, 12:04 PM

Below my answers colleague:

1. Nope, because it is the same length of the C&B ones.

2. No, if I put it into the revolver with the hammer at half position, it cycles as normal. Then, I get the hammer to cocking position and the cylinder moves and engages the bolt notch on time. But after the hammer fall and shot, the cylinder gets stuck and cocking again the hammer is totally impossible. I suppose if the problem is the bolt, it shouldn't function with any other cylinder.

3. the bolt stop is stuck in a too narrow notch? Nope, this is not the problem, the bolt stop measures the same of that in the Bison. And installed in the Bison, the cylinder functions...

If you have a newly made Pietta, I hear they reconfigured the colt grip tail so maybe they changed something else as well in their NMA's. Mine is an old one, 1988 made. Maybe the RD cylinder it is not intended to be used with older revolvers.

Measure the cylinders and compare their rear ratchets. This could be the problem, since the C&B cylinders have 6 ratchets, and only 5 the RD. But I disregard this issue because the Bison makes both kind of cylinders to cycle normally.

noelf2 · September 13, 2017, 01:31 PM

So, your "new" Pietta 1858 was made in 1988?

Centurion · September 13, 2017, 01:40 PM

It is new for me...and the initial owner never made a shot with it...so it is new, even being manufactured in 1988...LOL

noelf2 · September 13, 2017, 01:54 PM

Howells makes the 5 shot remmy cylinder. On their website they ask if your gun is over 10 years old. There must be some differences in tolerance with older guns, so they have options for new and old guns. Maybe you got the wrong option.

Centurion · September 13, 2017, 02:02 PM

Then...that must to be the point!

Centurion · September 13, 2017, 02:03 PM

I'll write them directly...many thanks!

45 Dragoon · September 13, 2017, 06:35 PM

I think your problem is the bolt not resetting. The lock notches in the conversion cyls are not as deep as the cap cyls. Since that leaves the bolt arm at a lower angle, it can't reset on top of the hammer cam and thus, the cylinder stays locked.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

TruthTellers · September 13, 2017, 07:48 PM

Dragoon is right, the problem is the bolt/cylinder stop, not the hand.

I bought a Pietta NMA couple years ago and a Taylor's conversion cylinder. Yes, different cylinder, but the issue is the same regardless. The slots on the conversion cylinders are not milled as deeply as the c&b cylinders because the .45 Colt cartridge's diameter is about .480" while the hole diameter for the Pietta C&B cylinders is a bit over .450", thus to keep the slot from breaking through into the chamber, it has to be shallower than normal.

The bolt needs to be modified. I paid Taylor's to send me a proper bolt to use with their cylinder, that way I still had the bolt for the percussion cylinder for when I want to shoot a lot of black powder. The modified bolts will still work with the percussion cylinder, so you don't have to switch back and forth every time.

Centurion · September 14, 2017, 08:12 AM

Finally fixed it by reducing the bolt head height. Now it is functional with both cylinders.

Thanks all for your help on open my eyes to possible solutions!

45 Dragoon · September 14, 2017, 08:35 AM

Care should be taken doing that. The bolt head should fully engage the notch which may be minimal now in the cap cyls. Throw-by and even "un-locking" from hammer fall could be a result.
I run into that sometimes with ancient ASM Dragoons/Walkers that have been "doctored". Adding material back the the bolt head is needed at that point.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Centurion · September 14, 2017, 08:48 AM

I considered that and will test functioning of C&B cylinders with small powder charges...

Centurion · September 14, 2017, 09:02 AM

Anyway tried to move it once in place and it is impossible

noelf2 · September 14, 2017, 09:35 AM

I had the shallow cylinder stop notch issue with a remmy conversion cylinder a while back. The cylinder would rotate, but would backtrack during hammer fall. That was a 6 shot R&D. That was fixed by shaping the bolt leg. Total lockup after hammer fall? I havent seen as a bolt issue but modding the bolt fixed it, so marking down that knowldge. A month ago I bought a fluted conversion cylinder from Howells, 5 shot, and had no problem with it in a newer remmy. It's hit and miss with the conversions.

September 12, 2017, 05:18 PM	#1
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Problem with a conversion cylinder Bought a new pietta new army remington copy. With the conventional cylinders it functions normally...but when I use the conversion cylinder from my pietta bison it doesn't move. And only with the conversion cylinder because the standard one does function very well. Standard cylinders are six shooters, conversion one is for five. Wich could be the problem? Maybe have to change the bolt? In any case it is very strange that all cylinders work in my bison but only the C&B ones function in this NMA... Any suggestion?

September 13, 2017, 07:53 AM	#5
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	There could be several things all contributing to the problem. Bolt issues usually create a lockup/timing problem, but the cylinder should still rotate as long as the bolt isn't engaging a stop notch when the hammer is down. If the bolt isn't causing a lockup problem with one cylinder, it shouldn't be a problem with another. Is the conversion cylinder a Howell type, or Kirst? If the cylinder is a much tighter fit, it's ratchet face is probably binding the hand. You may want to send it off to be fitted by Howell, Taylors, Kirst, depending on who made it. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

September 13, 2017, 01:31 PM	#8
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	So, your "new" Pietta 1858 was made in 1988? Last edited by noelf2; September 13, 2017 at 01:52 PM.

September 13, 2017, 01:54 PM	#10
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Howells makes the 5 shot remmy cylinder. On their website they ask if your gun is over 10 years old. There must be some differences in tolerance with older guns, so they have options for new and old guns. Maybe you got the wrong option. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

September 13, 2017, 07:48 PM	#14
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,889	Dragoon is right, the problem is the bolt/cylinder stop, not the hand. I bought a Pietta NMA couple years ago and a Taylor's conversion cylinder. Yes, different cylinder, but the issue is the same regardless. The slots on the conversion cylinders are not milled as deeply as the c&b cylinders because the .45 Colt cartridge's diameter is about .480" while the hole diameter for the Pietta C&B cylinders is a bit over .450", thus to keep the slot from breaking through into the chamber, it has to be shallower than normal. The bolt needs to be modified. I paid Taylor's to send me a proper bolt to use with their cylinder, that way I still had the bolt for the percussion cylinder for when I want to shoot a lot of black powder. The modified bolts will still work with the percussion cylinder, so you don't have to switch back and forth every time. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

September 12, 2017, 05:20 PM	#2
Trum4n1208 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2013 Posts: 173	I can't help you with your issue, but if that Pietta Bison is a brass frame then I HIGHLY recommend you not use a conversion cylinder in it. That brass frame won't stand up to much cartridge use, ESPECIALLY with smokeless ammunition. At best you'll ruin your gun, and at worse, you'll hurt yourself or someone else.

September 12, 2017, 05:46 PM	#3
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Probably not the bolt. More likely, the hand. Try swapping hands with the bison.

September 12, 2017, 05:56 PM	#4
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	I did it...and the problem remains...

September 13, 2017, 10:41 AM	#6
EphraimKibbey Member Join Date: December 1, 2010 Posts: 23	Is the conversion cylinder not moving in that: 1. it is stuck by binding inside the frame? 2. it is loose and slides forward away from the hand? 3. the bolt stop is stuck in a too narrow notch? If you have a newly made Pietta, I hear they reconfigured the colt grip tail so maybe they changed something else as well in their NMA's. Measure the cylinders and compare their rear ratchets. When you find the difference, you will know where to seek a remedy. As was mentioned above, all conversion cylinders come with a warning that they are not to be used in brass frames!!!

September 13, 2017, 12:04 PM	#7
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Below my answers colleague: 1. Nope, because it is the same length of the C&B ones. 2. No, if I put it into the revolver with the hammer at half position, it cycles as normal. Then, I get the hammer to cocking position and the cylinder moves and engages the bolt notch on time. But after the hammer fall and shot, the cylinder gets stuck and cocking again the hammer is totally impossible. I suppose if the problem is the bolt, it shouldn't function with any other cylinder. 3. the bolt stop is stuck in a too narrow notch? Nope, this is not the problem, the bolt stop measures the same of that in the Bison. And installed in the Bison, the cylinder functions... If you have a newly made Pietta, I hear they reconfigured the colt grip tail so maybe they changed something else as well in their NMA's. Mine is an old one, 1988 made. Maybe the RD cylinder it is not intended to be used with older revolvers. Measure the cylinders and compare their rear ratchets. This could be the problem, since the C&B cylinders have 6 ratchets, and only 5 the RD. But I disregard this issue because the Bison makes both kind of cylinders to cycle normally.

September 13, 2017, 01:40 PM	#9
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	It is new for me...and the initial owner never made a shot with it...so it is new, even being manufactured in 1988...LOL

September 13, 2017, 02:02 PM	#11
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Then...that must to be the point!

September 13, 2017, 02:03 PM	#12
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	I'll write them directly...many thanks!

September 13, 2017, 06:35 PM	#13
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	I think your problem is the bolt not resetting. The lock notches in the conversion cyls are not as deep as the cap cyls. Since that leaves the bolt arm at a lower angle, it can't reset on top of the hammer cam and thus, the cylinder stays locked. Mike www.goonsgunworks.com Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

September 14, 2017, 08:12 AM	#15
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Finally fixed it by reducing the bolt head height. Now it is functional with both cylinders. Thanks all for your help on open my eyes to possible solutions!

September 14, 2017, 08:35 AM	#16
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Care should be taken doing that. The bolt head should fully engage the notch which may be minimal now in the cap cyls. Throw-by and even "un-locking" from hammer fall could be a result. I run into that sometimes with ancient ASM Dragoons/Walkers that have been "doctored". Adding material back the the bolt head is needed at that point. Mike www.goonsgunworks.com Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

September 14, 2017, 08:48 AM	#17
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	I considered that and will test functioning of C&B cylinders with small powder charges...

September 14, 2017, 09:02 AM	#18
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Anyway tried to move it once in place and it is impossible

September 14, 2017, 09:35 AM	#19
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	I had the shallow cylinder stop notch issue with a remmy conversion cylinder a while back. The cylinder would rotate, but would backtrack during hammer fall. That was a 6 shot R&D. That was fixed by shaping the bolt leg. Total lockup after hammer fall? I havent seen as a bolt issue but modding the bolt fixed it, so marking down that knowldge. A month ago I bought a fluted conversion cylinder from Howells, 5 shot, and had no problem with it in a newer remmy. It's hit and miss with the conversions. Last edited by noelf2; September 14, 2017 at 09:42 AM.