XTP vs Elk

[1972RedNeck]

On my way home last night I came upon an elk that had been clipped by a 2 ton farm truck. Looked to have broken the elk's back as the elk was thrashing around and trying to crawl away on its front legs. No one else on scene had a gun but I had my 8" 460 S&W under the seat so I was the one to put it down. From about 15' I put one through the heart (or should have anyways). It knocked the elk over on it's side, but then it proceeded to get back up on it's front legs so I put another one in the same place which knocked it over again. The elk then swung it's head around to get up again so I put one between it's eyes, which was effective, but really ugly and gruesome.

I was using some hot handloads pushing 300 grain Hornady XTP mags a little over 2k FPS (supposedly - I don't have a chrono).

I am guessing the XTPs were just going so fast that they were fragmenting in the rib cage before they could reach the vitals?

I don't do any game hunting and know nothing about hunting bullet selection but I do get called on to put down large domestic and game animals on occasion. What bullet should I have used in this instance? 325 or 360 grain flat nose hardcast? Or XTPs running way slower?

[FrankenMauser]

Elk at this time of year are stupid tough and have very thick skin.
Their organs (skin included) eat bullets like they're powdered candy.

You were simply using a bullet that opened too quickly and failed to penetrate far enough. I don't think it 'blew up'. It probably just expanded and stopped too early. (Or was too slow to do major damage, if it/they made it to the heart.

But elk are also big animals that have a lot of blood, a lot of lung, and plenty of ability to keep the blood flowing from wounds that are fatal, but not instantly fatal.


I know it doesn't sound reasonable to people used to arguments about "stopping power" in self-defense situations, but I believe you would be better suited by a lower muzzle velocity that is more appropriate for a cartridge outside of the max velocity / tough guy realm. (I don't want to assume or stereotype, but there are stigma associated with .460 and .500 S&W.)

That same bullet probably would have dropped it the first time, at 1,200-1,400 fps.
Or, if you are dead-set on max .460 S&W velocities, start using a bullet that can handle it. The Barnes "expander" is, supposedly, up to the job. But the light weight and large hollow point make me wonder if it would do the job on elk.

"Hard cast" in the commercial cast bullet sense, is a death sentence in my mind. Such bullets tend to shear the nose and turn into conicals. That does result in penetration, but it means you get no expansion. After it shears, you have the equivalent of an FMJ.
Softer alloys are a better option for expansion, while maintaining penetration.

You must find the balance, back it off, or find a bullet designed for max velocity.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by 1972RedNeck

On my way home last night I came upon an elk that had been clipped by a 2 ton farm truck. Looked to have broken the elk's back as the elk was thrashing around and trying to crawl away on its front legs. No one else on scene had a gun but I had my 8" 460 S&W under the seat so I was the one to put it down. From about 15' I put one through the heart (or should have anyways). It knocked the elk over on it's side, but then it proceeded to get back up on it's front legs so I put another one in the same place which knocked it over again. The elk then swung it's head around to get up again so I put one between it's eyes, which was effective, but really ugly and gruesome.

I was using some hot handloads pushing 300 grain Hornady XTP mags a little over 2k FPS (supposedly - I don't have a chrono).

I am guessing the XTPs were just going so fast that they were fragmenting in the rib cage before they could reach the vitals?

I don't do any game hunting and know nothing about hunting bullet selection but I do get called on to put down large domestic and game animals on occasion. What bullet should I have used in this instance? 325 or 360 grain flat nose hardcast? Or XTPs running way slower?

Unless you're a bow hunter, you likely just put rounds through the lungs - Elk can take a couple minutes to expire that way.
And unless you rolled it over, you wouldn't have seen the exit holes.

Elk are big and tough.

[44 AMP]

Call Hornady and see what their upper velocity limit for that bullet is.

I doubt you're actually getting 2000 fps from an 8" revolver, and the Hornady data I have for that 300gr XTP mag bullet in .460 from the 8 3/8" S&W maxes out in the 1600fps range. But, I don't know you handloads, so you might be...

My experience is that to dispatch a crippled animal, you shoot the head (or neck) and you don't need expanding bullets to get the job done.

[FrankenMauser]

Hornady rates that one for 1,200-2,000 fps.

[44caliberkid]

A friend borrowed my Taurus Raging Bull 8” 44 Magnum for an elk hunt and dropped a bull with one shot to the heart/ lungs, my handload, 240 grain XTP at around 1375 - 1400 fps. As an LE I dispatched several deer injured by cars, with a 357 or 45 ACP. I started with the headshot. The public gets a little wigged out if you’re pumping rounds into an animal.

[44 AMP]

Hornady rates that one for 1,200-2,000 fps.

That being the case, then the "failure" was unlikely to be caused by the bullet being overdriven.

This leaves the most likely cause being bullet placement.

Hearts are where the books show them to be, but without study and some real world experience its easy to think you have the right spot when you don't.

Brain /cns is the best way to instantly turn off a suffering animal.

[1972RedNeck]

I doubt you're actually getting 2000 fps from an 8" revolver, and the Hornady data I have for that 300gr XTP mag bullet in .460 from the 8 3/8" S&W maxes out in the 1600fps range. But, I don't know you handloads, so you might be...

My experience is that to dispatch a crippled animal, you shoot the head (or neck) and you don't need expanding bullets to get the job done.

For some reason Hornady's 460 data is really conservative. Their max load for a 300 grain 460 is 50 fps slower than their max load for a 300 grain 454 Casull. Hodgdon's data lists over 2000 FPS at 56K PSI as a max load and is significantly hotter than Hornady's max load, but they don't say what barrel they use. I may or may not be a bit over Hodgdon's max loads as well...

I would have went for the head to start with, but it would never hold still enough for a good shot.

I have never had any intention of shooting a live animal with this pistol, but it was what I had in the truck from shooting that afternoon.

[1972RedNeck]

A friend borrowed my Taurus Raging Bull 8” 44 Magnum for an elk hunt and dropped a bull with one shot to the heart/ lungs, my handload, 240 grain XTP at around 1375 - 1400 fps. As an LE I dispatched several deer injured by cars, with a 357 or 45 ACP. I started with the headshot. The public gets a little wigged out if you’re pumping rounds into an animal.

I have had to put down more than enough bovidae - 38 special delivered via a headshot is plenty effective.

Luckily I am just a volunteer firefighter so I am not held to the same standards of marksmanship - I prefer quantity over quality when it comes to proper shot (water) placement.

[Unclenick]

The 2000 fps load Hornady has for the 8 3/8" S&W XVR is for a 240-grain XTP over 296. However, the list has a 0.7-grain heavier charge of H110, topping out at 1900 fps. As we all know, both 296 and H110 are canister-grade versions of St. Marks WC296. So these were apparently done with two lots of powder that were suffering from lot-to-lot variation in energy content. So, what you will get, exactly, is going to vary with a gun and your powder lot, as usual.

When Beartooth Bullets was still operating, they sold heat-treated hard cast (BHN 21) bullets of the LBT design profiles (WFN, LFN, etc.), and reports of them knocking elk and about everything else down were numerous. But Veral Smith, who designed the LBT molds, said himself that even regular wheel-weight metal, which is not that hard, would get brittle and shatter in cold Idaho winters. So, while I have confidence in the shape of these bullets to create a fast bleeding wound channel, I would be doing some testing for temperature-related integrity issues. Meanwhile, if you want the performance of those wide meplat shapes but are nervous about trusting lead alloys, take a look at the 300-grain WFN solid copper bullets from Lehigh. They only have load data for one of their funny front-finned bullets and 20" barrels, but you could probably get 1800 fps out of that 300-grain bullet by doing that, and with no expansion to slow it down, get exactly what you are looking for in a humane dispatch.

[bamaranger]

I never have dispatched an elk, but have had occasion to finish a LOT of whitetails. My own practice was to carry a .22lr rifle of some sort and to drill the unfortunate critter behind the ear. Oddly enough, the rifle that saw the most of that work and other similar tasks, was a tiny .22 Cricket that I bought (then borrowed) from bamaboy when he was young.

[buck460XVR]

Deer/elk once they have been injured, tend to be a lot harder to kill than when relaxed. I'm guessing the adrenaline. Anyone who has ever spined a deer with a bow, will have the same experience when trying to dispatch it with a lung shot.

I shoot, hunt and reload for my .460. The 300gr MAGs are a pretty tough bullet. Even at Point Blank range I doubt you are going to get bullet failure just hitting ribs.

[MarkCO]

I've shot several Elk with Handguns. I think adrenaline plays a part.

I shot a Cow Elk, that was grazing, at 80 yards with a 10mm (Yes, XTP) and it drop like a sack of potatoes, dead.

I shot a 6 Point Bull, in the same spot with my .41 Mag, also dropped dead right where it stood.

Then I hit a 4 point Bull with the Truck, I had to shoot it in the same way. Shot it in the same spot as the others, and it was still kicking around. Shot it in the Ear, flopped over dead.