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August 3, 2008, 05:41 PM | #126 |
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Join Date: December 24, 1999
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BillCA,
Going back to your comment about keeping at it from in the context of discussion for the sake of furthering the understanding pool, all wrapped in good intentions... that's where I'm coming from too. I apologize if it (I) do not always come across that way. I find myself limited by the medium, as opposed to say, interpersonal conversation. Or just pepper spraying... Its a joke, people. Relax. Then there's having to deal with the seemingly ever present cop bashing, character assassinations, and general complete misconstruction of what LEOs do and for what reasons. Combine it all and at times I understand that my point/counter-points may leave incorrect impressions. Best, Erik
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Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective Last edited by Erik; August 3, 2008 at 08:52 PM. |
August 4, 2008, 06:08 AM | #127 | |||||||||||
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Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
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Not to worry, Erik. Sometimes this medium is awkward and clumsy when these kinds of discussions break out. It frustrates many of us at times.
So, let's begin with, essentially, the first "questionable" statement. Quote:
In short, I must drop a gun and nothing else, regardless of it being in an "unsafe" condition (i.e. a cocked weapon - such as a SA revolver). Or even to extend an arm (not towards the cops!) to drop it away from myself and/or the attacker. Is that what you are advocating? In the event the PD arrival is something of a surprise (speed, stealth, whatever) and the gun is at waist or chest level, the implication is that raising one's hands instead of dropping the weapon may result in being shot. Quote:
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Just for simplicity, in the above, moving any way at all means the arms or upper body only. I'm not talking about someone turning to face officers who are behind.
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BillCA in CA (Unfortunately) |
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August 4, 2008, 05:33 PM | #128 | |||||||
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Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
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August 4, 2008, 05:50 PM | #129 | |||
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Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
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August 4, 2008, 05:53 PM | #130 | |
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Join Date: May 16, 2000
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Then I would do whatever the heck he said, including to drop the weapon, regardless of my feelings on the matter. Because, you know, the risk to me from a dropped gun discharging in a random direction is considerably less than the risk to me from the officer shooting me deliberately and repeatedly. But I sure wouldn't make any other move with the weapon in hand. Not even in super slow motion. pax |
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August 4, 2008, 10:04 PM | #131 |
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Location: Southwestern Michigan
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Well I'm Back In Here Thanks To David Armstrong
Rather than rehash the entire thread I'll just address the comments made by David Armstrong with a little sidebar. #1 Common Sense is as old as time and you sir seem to have none. I'm sure that 99% of those viewing this thread have a complete understanding of common sense and I am here to point out that you are in that 1%. That is very bad for those in SW Louisiana who come into contact with you. #2 A LAPD officer that exhibits this type of behavior is proof positive that the selection process failed when they selected him. Are you going to tell me that this is the type of individual in such an important position is there to serve and protect the public? I think not! If that is true than the selection process you went through is also flawed! I expect a much higher standard of behavior from the police than from the general public. All of us should. #3 Apparently the rigorous selection process of the LAPD weeded you out as you profess to be an expert on it! Not good news if you didn't make it and the other clown did! #4 If you don't like the touchdown/pro football analogy how about this. I don't have to be a Pro Football General Manager to know what a poor performance on the football field is. That better. Use common sense. Oh, I forgot, you don't believe in that or posess it #5 If you lack common sense, you may be "inclined" to function poorly in these types of situations. All you have to do is watch the "Cops" program and you see all kinds of different orders being shouted at suspects. Which do they obey? Use common sense! If the guy is not showing any signs of a threat to you why put some guy who you have NO KNOWLEDGE has done anything wrong in the hospital or grave yard. If you harbor so much fear of the public you should not be on the street with a gun. Sure doesn't say much for the "brave" officers does it. Trigger happy, fearful individuals should not be on any department. Please explain how officers with your attitude are keeping the public safe? You can't. You are only killing an innocent person based on your unwarranted fear. Not good for the public is it? I am now starting to believe that some "cop bashing" may have some basis. Thank you guys for enlightening me and I pray that I'm never in your juristiction. As I stated in my first post. I am about as pro-law enforcement as someone can get and some of you guys are an ugly stain on an honorable profession. (I'll bet that I won't have to mention what guys I'm talking about. You know.) I now stand ready to take on all the bad cops and cop "worshippers". (not to be confused with those that hold law enforement in high esteme of which I am one) Bring it on.
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August 4, 2008, 10:50 PM | #132 |
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Sportdog
I thought you had withdrawn. or was that another flight of fantasy?
You have said twice; "I am about as pro-law enforcement as someone can get" I don't believe it for a second. There is no reason for deception here, It is O.K. to have a grudge toward LE, whether from an unfulfilled fantasy or from a BAD interaction. Your fixation with peace officers involved in assassination of an innocent person tells me that you have had a trauma either a fantasy or real concerning unwarranted force and the police, I feel sorry for you. Since you have failed to respond to my last post directed at you, I will exercise my God given right and press the ignore button on YOU, "be gone DAMM spot".
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August 5, 2008, 12:21 AM | #133 |
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Scatterbum Bob
I didn't engage with each one of your and others statements always in a direct manner as there are only so many hours in a day and so much of that time to engage with people that are so self conceited and so addicted to power and control that it becomes an excercise in futility. You judge me to not be a fan of law enforcement because I dare to call BS to men who discredit the uniform that they wear? I have judged them and you on the words you use. You are judging me on your preconceived notion based on no facts whatsoever!:barf: The more you defend police that are less than honorable (A nice way to say bad cops) the more foolish you look. Keep your pity for me. I have a very nice life. A life not tormented with fear and free from thinking that I am better that others. You don't believe that my father is a retired police officer and my son-in-law is currently serving as a Trooper for the Michigan State Police. Don't believe it. This is cyber space and doubter cyber space authors abound. You are not special. Just one of many. Just like me. If I can irritate you, I am pleased as punch. Anything that I can do to enlighten you? Just let me know. I stand ready to serve.
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August 5, 2008, 03:24 AM | #134 | |||||
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Join Date: November 28, 2004
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The real concern here, I guess, is what really constitutes the term "any move". Does rotating the gun to fall on it's side meet the qualification of "any move"? Quote:
The way I read your statement above, once the subject fails to comply in the expected manner, futher commands are useless. He only gets one chance. [Somewhat of an exaggeration to be sure, but it is to illustrate the point.] And Erik accused me of wanting to "what-if" the topic to death to support my disagreement, now you're doing the same thing. We can "what-if" it silly here. Quote:
Actor Wilford Brimley
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BillCA in CA (Unfortunately) |
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August 5, 2008, 10:24 AM | #135 |
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We still here. Amusing.
A couple of things. 1. If you are not an expert psychometrician, you might want to be a little more judicious on how screening processes can absolutely predict that someone won't crack up later. The idea that any testing battery can stop future bad behavior is hysterically funny and shows the poster knows nothing about that area. I do. 2. About drop free guns - given that we know what guns are drop free now and that non drop free guns are risky in a variety of contexts (including our beloved Drop the Gun one), unless constrained by pure financial circumstance, aren't you kind of stupd not to have one as the primary self-defense gun? 3. Again, folks are talking in absolutes. The whole idea of this thread is not that you will get shot based on noncompliance. It is that it is a risk factor that adds into the equation that predicts a shoot. So do you want that in the equation? When there is no reason to for most folks? The purpose of this exercise is for the lurkers and readers to consider what is a reasonable action plan. I propose that a reasonable action plan when faced with the law and holding a gun is to: 1. If one can, try to put the gun in a nonthreatening position. 2. Recall that stress makes the arriving officers a risk to you (bitch about it all you want, it's true). 3. Follow all commands without jawing about it except in extraordinary need. Auditory exclusion can predict that you are not even heard in some circumstances. 4. Drop the gun if told so. If it is not drop safe - well, that's your fault. 5. Have no ego involvement because you are not recognized as heroic, the good guy, the champion of truth, justice and the American way. This is not rocket science for an action plan - we see more ego involvement here. It is similar to the ongoing 'never carry a mouse gun debate' or the 'why the hell should I tell the officer I have a gun in my car' debate. All ego and little consideration of risk reduction.
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August 5, 2008, 11:30 AM | #136 |
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Join Date: August 5, 2008
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Staying armed until
the cops show up. Then and only then will I disarm.
I will let them tell me what to do and will comply completely, but they needn't handle me roughly. Hope springs eternal. :barf:
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August 5, 2008, 12:05 PM | #137 |
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Well, this thread's certainly been interesting, but it's getting (getting? ) repetitive and tempers are flaring.
I think it's safe to say this one's run its course. Closed.
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