Flat tire scenario - Page 2

Double Naught Spy · July 7, 2007, 07:53 PM

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Is it just me, or did anybody else wonder why a guy who has been a member for less than a month, and with only 4 posts puts something like this on the board?

I think there is a footnote in chapter 8 of the gun-board netiquette handbook that says you don't post a "how'd I do" lethal-force-scenario thread until you have at least been around long enough for the hound to get used to your scent.

Of course, this comes from W.E.G. who has a grand total of 42 posts and has been a member less than 4 months.

W.E.G., this was not a lethal force scenario thread. If time on the board was a critical component, then your vast time here would have allowed you to realize that, right? As for Chapter 8, there are some rules for TFL that you could review and none say anything about requiring time on the board to post queries.

How did you do LATT? One school of thought says you did fine because nothing bad happened. The other school says that you were caught off guard and when the guy approached, didn't do anything to greatly better your position and even turned your back on the guy. Next time, you will better know what to do.

DeathRodent · July 8, 2007, 12:30 AM

You were right to be nervous...many years ago I wouldn't have suspected anything but...

around 20 yrs ago - this fall - was the last ticket I received (i am very lucky with driving) - I attended the taffic safety school California offerred - at that time if you attended a safety class you recieved no points for the speeding ticket - anyway I will always remember the CHP that taught the class and one story in particular he told us.

Seems him and a partner pulled up to a car on the side iof the freeway and noticed a man climbing up from the embankment that sloped downwards. They thought he was moving in a kind of stumbling manner so they got out and questioned him - he wasn't drunk and was not cooperating - to make a long story short - he had a flat and was changing it when another car stopped and 2 guys got out and asked if he needed help. He said "no I got it handled" and turned around to the tire - next thing he remembers is waking up down below with his pants off - you can guess what happened.

This was 20+ years ago and in California but now its 2007 and I wouldn't turn my back on anybody.

Glad it worked out OK but its better to be safe.

209 · July 8, 2007, 06:55 AM

It's sad that we have to worry about the motives of someone. But, in this day and age, we do. I subscribe to rule #5 in my list of Rules To Live By.

5. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

It doesn't mean you are always in code red. It simply means to assess every situation. If you use the basic senses we all have, you can usually figure out if you are a predator.... or if you are about to become prey.

I will usually stop to help a female who is broken down on the side of the road. I sometimes don't stop to help a guy. I've had mixed outcomes from stopping. Initially, the smart people are just a little bit worried about my intentions. They are the people who will probably not become a victim. IMO, they are the smart ones. The bubble-headed bleach blonde (sorry,but it is a good stereotype to emphasize my point) is likely to end up as a crime statistic. Pay attention to your surroundings. Don't be an easy mark. Alway assess the situation- if the hairs on your neck are standing up, you might be about to have a problem.

SatanzBountyHunter · July 8, 2007, 01:24 PM

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He said "no I got it handled" and turned around to the tire - next thing he remembers is waking up down below with his pants off - you can guess what happened.

That's it...I'll drive on the rim until I get home.

markj · July 9, 2007, 03:18 PM

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That is a rediculous question. That is the type of question that dumbs down these discussions.

If you guys want to change a flat, or stop to help someone UNARMED, just so you can relax, live relaxed, and not seem paranoid - GO FOR IT.

Life is full of choices, I choose to not live in fear, self induced especially. My question was valid, from the sound of his post I felt he was in fear, and might have done just that. I read these posts here and leave thinking there seems to be a lot of young guys that want violence so they can use their weapons on a living human. That scares me more than any BG, I know what to expect from a BG...

W.E.G. · July 9, 2007, 04:05 PM

My comment is based on my suspicious nature.

The idea that this flat-tire situation would implicate anything at all related to a lethal force issue, or that such a situation should induce a fearful reaction in any person of ordinary temperament makes me suspect that the question may be intended to elicit an inflammatory reaction by "gun nuts."

But, what would I know? Being such a newbie that I am.

Glad you got your tire changed and a cool drink of water.

mattro · July 9, 2007, 05:33 PM

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I read these posts here and leave thinking there seems to be a lot of young guys that want violence so they can use their weapons on a living human. That scares me more than any BG, I know what to expect from a BG...

Young guys? huh, I don't remember anyone mentioning their age. Nor has any advice here sounded immature. I am an accomplished professional and a father of 5. I imagine the rest of these gentlemen are not juveniles.

Just because I CCW into a convenient store does not mean I live scared. Just because we advocate that this guy would be safer if he CCW when changing a tire doesn't mean we live scared. It also doesn't mean we are looking for voilence or an excuse to use our guns.

I hate to bust your bubble, but just because I am packing doesn't mean I pull and shoot when someone looks or acts suspicious. If you don't know when to responsibly pull and shoot, you definetely should not CCW. I don't remember the last news article where a CCW pulled and shot soemone that wasn't warranted. If that is your mentality, I hope you do NOT ccw.

Asking if this guy would shoot the guy just because he stopped to help is absurd and shows complete ignorance regarding the responsibility of ccw. You are assuming because the guy is wondering if he should have been carrying a gun, that he would have been looking for a fight. That is how the anit-gun lobby thinks.

Also, Fear vs. cautious, not wanting to be a victim, are two entirely different things. I am in less fear when I am carrying because I feel I am MUCH less likely to become a victim.

You know what to expect from a bad guy?? You said a bad guy is more predictable than a CCW holder? Once again you're right inline with the anti-gun lobby (can you say Rosie O) That is like Rosie O saying Christians are far more dangerous than Muslims.

SeanShot · July 10, 2007, 12:55 PM

Not everyone's gonna kill you. Especially if they have an Australian accent (Teacher story). I think you were fine not reaching for the gun. Just don't get in his car, don't let him reach in any suspicious places, and don't let him have that strange creepy jumpy look.

easyG · July 10, 2007, 02:18 PM

If someone offers assistance, that's fine.
It shows that they are probably just a good samaritan.

But hanging around after you declined assistance...that's just a little suspicious.

markj · July 10, 2007, 04:08 PM

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Asking if this guy would shoot the guy just because he stopped to help is absurd and shows complete ignorance regarding the responsibility of ccw.

Call it how you wish pard, the post made it sound as if he was fearing for his life and wanted a gun. Glad I live here and not by you. I have guns, shoot ever yweek, just helped a pard get his CCW in Nebr. There is a time to throw down, this wasnt it.

Feel better when you carry? I dont, the weight throws me off.

Most folk are younger than I, been around a long time, plan on being around longer, been shot once, stabbed once shot at a few times. Dont CCW, but a weapon is always close to hand.

Dont call me ignorant either. I try to give gun folk a good name, not scare anyone that might just happen to read these posts. Some of these sure do sound crazy.

JunyTuck · July 10, 2007, 05:28 PM

Double Naught Spy,
You recent post is blatantly discriminating against low post count participants! You high post count makes you smarter HOW? Maybe you just have more time on your hands. Just because someone has a low post count, doesn't equate to inexperience or ignorance. It means they are new to the forum. Your arrogance to new members is counterproductive to growing this forum in a positive way.

chris in va · July 10, 2007, 05:28 PM

It's really very sad the first thing people think of in this situation is how to defend ourselves. Didn't used to be that way. Personally I can't stand to see someone on the side of the road trying to fix their car alone.

I don't think what happened should be a 'scenerio', but rather an opportunity to let someone help you.

Spade Cooley · July 10, 2007, 05:53 PM

I'm in the country and if someone is parked with car trouble, I will drive up and ask from my vehicle if they need anything, water, tools, a phone for tow, etc. If they need help I try to assist. If they are OK, I move on. If they need to walk to my home to borrow something for their repair like a floor jack, thats fine too.

I think next time I better just give the guy the bird and move on so I don't get shot.

mattro · July 10, 2007, 06:34 PM

998 times out of a thousand it will be safe to help or be helped. But I always plan to defend myself and others. That way when the 2 out of a thousand happens, I (and others) have a better chance to defeat evil and prevail. For me I consider it a duty, not John Wayne, but a duty I am willing to accept.

eltorrente · July 11, 2007, 03:29 AM

Based on the posts of people pulling their gun because they were "threatened", I feel that many of those people are too quick to pull the guns and I see this over and over on this forum and others.

Heck, you can't even argue with someone anymore. If that guy has a ccw, there's a good chance he's gonna pull his piece on you if he feels intimidated in the least bit. You always hear about a fist-fight breaking out, then some clown pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy.

If someone throws a punch at me, or pushes me in anger or something, he doesn't deserve to have a loaded gun leveled at his chest or killed. He would have to have a weapon and obviously about to use it on me in order for me to be threatened enough to pull my gun on him. I get the feeling that many ccw folks walk around scared to death of every guy that looks at him funny, and walking around on-the-edge, ready to pull it out at the slightest hint of trouble.

Johannes_Paulsen · July 11, 2007, 09:42 AM

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It's really very sad the first thing people think of in this situation is how to defend ourselves. Didn't used to be that way. Personally I can't stand to see someone on the side of the road trying to fix their car alone.

Didn't used to be that way? No, thus it always has been, and thus it ever shall be!

Why have a weapon in the first place if you're not, on some level, concerned for your safety?

Until the date that Human nature changes, the responsibility of personal security will, and should, always be an important concern.

easyG · July 11, 2007, 10:13 AM

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If someone throws a punch at me, or pushes me in anger or something, he doesn't deserve to have a loaded gun leveled at his chest or killed. He would have to have a weapon and obviously about to use it on me in order for me to be threatened enough to pull my gun on him.

I disagree.

Here's something to consider...

There is no such thing as a fair fight and there never was!
Unless the guy is pissing drunk he is not going to attack anyone who he thinks might kick his butt.
In other words...men assault those whom they are confident that they can beat.

And the only reason they might think that they can beat their opponent is if they have an advantage over that opponent...it might be strength, surprise, fighting skill, size or weight, an unseen weapon, or maybe even some friends nearby.
Keeping this in mind, only a fool will go toe-to-toe with someone who is physically aggressive toward them.

I'm just an average 40 year old guy.
And while I'm not in poor physical condition by any means, I'm not an UFC fighter either.
Why should I be expected to risk being beaten to death by someone bigger and stronger and faster than myself just because that person is unarmed?

I'm a radiologic technologist in a hospital and I image folks everyday who have been beaten.
And I can tell you with 100% certainty that an unarmed man is not to be taken lightly.

I've seen guys who were just kicked and punched, no weapons involved, who have suffered various injuries such as:
crushed facial bones, broken jaw, smashed teeth, broken ribs, collapsed lungs, ruptured testicles, ruptured bladders, ruptured eyeballs, hearing loss, crushed trachea, kidney damage, broken legs, broken arms, fractured skull, brain damage, spinal fractures, and nerve damage.

And they rack up enormous medical expenses often sending them in a downward spiral of debt that they will probably never get out of.
And many will require continuing physical therapy for the rest of their life.
And some no doubt will lose their job and the ability to support their family because of the damages they received.

If you want to risk that kind of damage simply because the other guy is unarmed then that's certainly your right.
But don't think less of those who are not willing to be someone else's punching bag.

mattro · July 11, 2007, 10:29 AM

If someone:
1. has the physical ability to harm me (not too weak or drunk or etc), and
2. they show me that they plan a physical fight with me that I cannot avoid

Then they are getting a gun pulled on them. Probably not shoot immediately, but it will be pulled. I don't have to subject myself to a beating, Noone has the right to inflict that on an innocent person.

I can see some punk getting a lucky punch and knocking me out cold, leaving my wife and/or kids to the mercy of the punk. For what??? So I can be show mercy to some puke that starting something against me and my family.

A verbal argument - No, of course you should not pull a gun. If you do, you should go to jail and loose your ccw license. But an unavoidable physical confrontation I did not solicit - I'm Pulling!

eltorrente · July 11, 2007, 11:10 AM

Quote:

I disagree.

Here's something to consider...

There is no such thing as a fair fight and there never was!
Unless the guy is pissing drunk he is not going to attack anyone who he thinks might kick his butt.
In other words...men assault those whom they are confident that they can beat.

And the only reason they might think that they can beat their opponent is if they have an advantage over that opponent...it might be strength, surprise, fighting skill, size or weight, an unseen weapon, or maybe even some friends nearby.
Keeping this in mind, only a fool will go toe-to-toe with someone who is physically aggressive toward them.

I'm just an average 40 year old guy.
And while I'm not in poor physical condition by any means, I'm not an UFC fighter either.
Why should I be expected to risk being beaten to death by someone bigger and stronger and faster than myself just because that person is unarmed?

I'm a radiologic technologist in a hospital and I image folks everyday who have been beaten.
And I can tell you with 100% certainty that an unarmed man is not to be taken lightly.

I've seen guys who were just kicked and punched, no weapons involved, who have suffered various injuries such as:
crushed facial bones, broken jaw, smashed teeth, broken ribs, collapsed lungs, ruptured testicles, ruptured bladders, ruptured eyeballs, hearing loss, crushed trachea, kidney damage, broken legs, broken arms, fractured skull, brain damage, spinal fractures, and nerve damage.

And they rack up enormous medical expenses often sending them in a downward spiral of debt that they will probably never get out of.
And many will require continuing physical therapy for the rest of their life.
And some no doubt will lose their job and the ability to support their family because of the damages they received.

If you want to risk that kind of damage simply because the other guy is unarmed then that's certainly your right.
But don't think less of those who are not willing to be someone else's punching bag.

I totally agree - fists/feet/elbows/knees can be truly dangerous and in fact, as you know, people have been killed by single blows to the head.

Now that being said, I still would hold off as long as possible - after the fists started flying probably. I'd leave if I could, or stand my ground if I couldn't. I'd try to use intimidation or my fists to defend myself first. Now there's all sorts of scenarios that I can think of where this would be a bad choice, like if there's more than one guy or it's obvious he's planning on killing me with his bare hands and looks capable of it. I just can't imagine some guy laying there choking on his own blood, breathing his last breaths, while I'm standing above him with a just a good ole' black eye. I would feel horrible and would rather have a fat lip or maybe just some bruised knuckles instead.

Now obviously the older one gets, the more mismatched the altercation is likely gonna be, so of course it becomes more justified to pull it out. If someone went after my 80year old Grandpa, I'd sure hope he has a gun with him to protect himself.

easyG · July 11, 2007, 11:29 AM

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Now that being said, I still would hold off as long as possible - after the fists started flying probably.

But by that time it could already be too late.

My old Drill Sgt had a saying...."You aint even gonna know I have a knife until I stick it in you".

What he meant was this:
Don't show that you have a knife or a sap or some other weapon before you use it, keep it secret until the last second.

So you might hold off in pulling your gun until the fists start flying, but the other guy might have a knife hidden in his hand and stab you on the first strike.
You might never get the chance to pull your pistol.

Quote:

I just can't imagine some guy laying there choking on his own blood, breathing his last breaths, while I'm standing above him with a just a good ole' black eye.

If a guy indicates that he is going to physically attack you, and you draw your pistol and tell him to stop, the choice is his whether he gets shot or not.
If he makes the decision to continue the attack then he deserves what he gets.

markj · July 11, 2007, 03:53 PM

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It's really very sad the first thing people think of in this situation is how to defend ourselves

and he had a tire iron in his hand to remove the lug nuts and was scared of a unarmed guy as most here sound like they would be

Bunch of Nancy boys, turn yer testicles in at the door on yer way out girlymen

this thread is just too funny for my old heart to take

Edith I'm coming (Sanford and son for all you youngins)

I belive every one is good at heart, I am starting to think some are not, and they are armed

Quote:

Why have a weapon in the first place if you're not, on some level, concerned for your safety?

I hunt. Sometimes a cow needs to be put down or a horse. I like to target shoot, also hunt small animals with the .22 handgun.

Guns are not only for killing humans.

easyG · July 11, 2007, 04:00 PM

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...and he had a tire iron in his hand to remove the lug nuts and was scared of a unarmed guy as most here sound like they would be

Most attackers appear unarmed....until they are attacking!

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Edith I'm coming (Sanford and son for all you youngins)

BTW, Sanford's deceased wife was Elizabeth, not Edith.

Edith was Archie Bunker's wife (for all you youngins).

markj · July 13, 2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

BTW, Sanford's deceased wife was Elizabeth, not Edith.

Edith was Archie Bunker's wife (for all you youngins).

watched em both the other day on tvland

tv isnt the same these days. Too violent, hmmmmm I wonder if that has anything to do with the way folks think today?

anotherKevin · July 13, 2007, 02:11 PM

I find it somewhat surprising that folks would suggest that getting in a physical fight is less than dangerous enough to respond with deadly force. Why are you so sure that if the other guy has the advantage on you, and beats you, he will actually stop once you are down?

In the course of history I've met a few dangerous, brawler types. One of them beat a guy, and put him down. Unbeknownst to him, the other fella got up and walloped him with some object and he nearly died at the hospital. After that he vowed he would never leave the other guy just down. He would continue until he couldn't get up again.

July 8, 2007, 12:30 AM	#27
DeathRodent Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2006 Posts: 209	You were right to be nervous...many years ago I wouldn't have suspected anything but... around 20 yrs ago - this fall - was the last ticket I received (i am very lucky with driving) - I attended the taffic safety school California offerred - at that time if you attended a safety class you recieved no points for the speeding ticket - anyway I will always remember the CHP that taught the class and one story in particular he told us. Seems him and a partner pulled up to a car on the side iof the freeway and noticed a man climbing up from the embankment that sloped downwards. They thought he was moving in a kind of stumbling manner so they got out and questioned him - he wasn't drunk and was not cooperating - to make a long story short - he had a flat and was changing it when another car stopped and 2 guys got out and asked if he needed help. He said "no I got it handled" and turned around to the tire - next thing he remembers is waking up down below with his pants off - you can guess what happened. This was 20+ years ago and in California but now its 2007 and I wouldn't turn my back on anybody. Glad it worked out OK but its better to be safe. __________________ You cannot arm slaves and expect them to remain slaves, nor can you disarm a free people and expect them to remain free.

July 10, 2007, 06:34 PM	#39
mattro Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 224	998 times out of a thousand it will be safe to help or be helped. But I always plan to defend myself and others. That way when the 2 out of a thousand happens, I (and others) have a better chance to defeat evil and prevail. For me I consider it a duty, not John Wayne, but a duty I am willing to accept. __________________ My Battle Rifle has no sporting purpose.

July 11, 2007, 10:29 AM	#43
mattro Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 224	If someone: 1. has the physical ability to harm me (not too weak or drunk or etc), and 2. they show me that they plan a physical fight with me that I cannot avoid Then they are getting a gun pulled on them. Probably not shoot immediately, but it will be pulled. I don't have to subject myself to a beating, Noone has the right to inflict that on an innocent person. I can see some punk getting a lucky punch and knocking me out cold, leaving my wife and/or kids to the mercy of the punk. For what??? So I can be show mercy to some puke that starting something against me and my family. A verbal argument - No, of course you should not pull a gun. If you do, you should go to jail and loose your ccw license. But an unavoidable physical confrontation I did not solicit - I'm Pulling! __________________ My Battle Rifle has no sporting purpose.

July 13, 2007, 02:11 PM	#49
anotherKevin Junior Member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Posts: 3	"It's only a beating" I find it somewhat surprising that folks would suggest that getting in a physical fight is less than dangerous enough to respond with deadly force. Why are you so sure that if the other guy has the advantage on you, and beats you, he will actually stop once you are down? In the course of history I've met a few dangerous, brawler types. One of them beat a guy, and put him down. Unbeknownst to him, the other fella got up and walloped him with some object and he nearly died at the hospital. After that he vowed he would never leave the other guy just down. He would continue until he couldn't get up again.

July 8, 2007, 06:55 AM	#28
209 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 269	It's sad that we have to worry about the motives of someone. But, in this day and age, we do. I subscribe to rule #5 in my list of Rules To Live By. 5. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet. It doesn't mean you are always in code red. It simply means to assess every situation. If you use the basic senses we all have, you can usually figure out if you are a predator.... or if you are about to become prey. I will usually stop to help a female who is broken down on the side of the road. I sometimes don't stop to help a guy. I've had mixed outcomes from stopping. Initially, the smart people are just a little bit worried about my intentions. They are the people who will probably not become a victim. IMO, they are the smart ones. The bubble-headed bleach blonde (sorry,but it is a good stereotype to emphasize my point) is likely to end up as a crime statistic. Pay attention to your surroundings. Don't be an easy mark. Alway assess the situation- if the hairs on your neck are standing up, you might be about to have a problem.

July 9, 2007, 04:05 PM	#31
W.E.G. Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2007 Location: all over Virginia Posts: 266	My comment is based on my suspicious nature. The idea that this flat-tire situation would implicate anything at all related to a lethal force issue, or that such a situation should induce a fearful reaction in any person of ordinary temperament makes me suspect that the question may be intended to elicit an inflammatory reaction by "gun nuts." But, what would I know? Being such a newbie that I am. Glad you got your tire changed and a cool drink of water.

July 10, 2007, 12:55 PM	#33
SeanShot Member Join Date: July 8, 2007 Posts: 42	Not everyone's gonna kill you. Especially if they have an Australian accent (Teacher story). I think you were fine not reaching for the gun. Just don't get in his car, don't let him reach in any suspicious places, and don't let him have that strange creepy jumpy look.

July 10, 2007, 02:18 PM	#34
easyG Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2004 Location: Right here! Posts: 972	If someone offers assistance, that's fine. It shows that they are probably just a good samaritan. But hanging around after you declined assistance...that's just a little suspicious.

July 10, 2007, 05:28 PM	#36
JunyTuck Member Join Date: June 26, 2007 Posts: 92	Double Naught Spy, You recent post is blatantly discriminating against low post count participants! You high post count makes you smarter HOW? Maybe you just have more time on your hands. Just because someone has a low post count, doesn't equate to inexperience or ignorance. It means they are new to the forum. Your arrogance to new members is counterproductive to growing this forum in a positive way.

July 10, 2007, 05:28 PM	#37
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	It's really very sad the first thing people think of in this situation is how to defend ourselves. Didn't used to be that way. Personally I can't stand to see someone on the side of the road trying to fix their car alone. I don't think what happened should be a 'scenerio', but rather an opportunity to let someone help you.

July 10, 2007, 05:53 PM	#38
Spade Cooley Junior member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Posts: 296	I'm in the country and if someone is parked with car trouble, I will drive up and ask from my vehicle if they need anything, water, tools, a phone for tow, etc. If they need help I try to assist. If they are OK, I move on. If they need to walk to my home to borrow something for their repair like a floor jack, thats fine too. I think next time I better just give the guy the bird and move on so I don't get shot.

July 11, 2007, 03:29 AM	#40
eltorrente Member Join Date: November 26, 2006 Posts: 70	Based on the posts of people pulling their gun because they were "threatened", I feel that many of those people are too quick to pull the guns and I see this over and over on this forum and others. Heck, you can't even argue with someone anymore. If that guy has a ccw, there's a good chance he's gonna pull his piece on you if he feels intimidated in the least bit. You always hear about a fist-fight breaking out, then some clown pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy. If someone throws a punch at me, or pushes me in anger or something, he doesn't deserve to have a loaded gun leveled at his chest or killed. He would have to have a weapon and obviously about to use it on me in order for me to be threatened enough to pull my gun on him. I get the feeling that many ccw folks walk around scared to death of every guy that looks at him funny, and walking around on-the-edge, ready to pull it out at the slightest hint of trouble.