9mm reloads FTF and FTE

[mls4444]

Hey all-
I just got into reloading and I've run into some problems with my 9mm reloads. I've been reloading both 9mm and 45ACP. My 45's shoot flawlessly- no FTF's, no jam's, no nothing but perfect holes in my target.
My 9mm rounds have some problems though- FTF & FTE at times. I was thinking I'm not expanding my cases properly and thus the bullets are seating off center (although they look pretty straight after seating). I don't use a crimp- do i need to? The 45 I just load with straight cases and no crimp and they work great.
The rounds that don't feed properly will fire once I clear the chamber and then reload them (always inspecting the round to make sure there were no primer strikes or anything). I also haven't had any squib loads. Just the FTF and FTE sometimes.

I'm reloading winchester 115 gr FMJ RN with Bullseye 4.2 gr, CCI 500 primers, winchester brass (reloaded from some factory reloads).

What's the problem here? Do I need to add a crimp? If so- how is this done? Thanks!

[Brian Pfleuger]

If you're not crimping then how are you removing the flare created by the expansion plug? (on 9mm OR 45acp?)

[dwwright]

You're sure it's not the gun?

[oneounceload]

You DO need a crimp - at least a taper for semi's........

[rjrivero]

I agree with the consensus that you need a crimp to remove the bell. At least a taper.

Depending on the dies you are using, the crimping function will either be the last bit of the seating function, or it will be a separate stage in a dedicated crimping die.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Some cases are harder to stick CCI primers into than others. Take your fingertip and feel to be sure yours are below flush with the casehead. A high primer can absorb some firing pin energy as the pin nudges it in deeper and otherwise has to indent it farther to get adequate compression of the pellet against the anvil.

That would not account for FTE in a load that fires, though. That 4.2 grain load should be warm enough for normal operation unless maybe you have a light or short barrel gun with really stiff recoil springs? 4.6 grains of Bullseye produces commercial hardball load level, and you should be able to work up to 5.0 grains of Bullseye IF you are seating the RN FMJ bullets all the way out in the range of 1.159" to 1.169" COL, as the military does. That will be at the military hardball load level of about 400 ft-lbs from a 5" tube. Same as with .45 ACP, the commercial version runs around 350 ft-lbs.

But be cautioned that most load manuals stop at 4.6 or 4.7 grains. They also seat deeper, which raises pressure. So, under some circumstances 5.0 grains could constitute a +P or even a +P+ load if you shorten COL or have a very low capacity case. Work up slowly in 0.2 grain increments to establish that you aren't getting pressure signs.

I suppose it is also possible your problem is actually all about failure to completely remove the expander die's mouth flare, as suggested by the others? If you have fully seated primers (about 0.003"-0.004" below flush), but that flare stalls the cartridge just short of fully entering the chamber, then it could jam further forward at firing, both absorbing the firing pin blow (which can prevent ignition, same as a high primer can), and sticking the case in the chamber harder than normal? Pretty speculative, but conceivable. I still think that case should flatten out of jamming under pressure, though.

Check the primers, check that the case mouth is flattened against the bullet, and try nudging the charge up in 0.2 grain increments toward a maximum of around 5 grains of Bullseye.

[mls4444]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I don't have a crimping die. I am using the 3 die RCBS set. Perhaps I am crimping with the seating die? I put a sized case in the shell holder, run the ram up to the top, screw the die down til I have contact, then I back the die out about 1 full turn. As for the plunger for the bullet depth, I slowly screw it down checking bullet depth with a set of calipers. For 9mm I aim for COL of 1.135.

As for the primers- they look pretty good. And as I said, the rounds fire, they just don't wanna feed properly it seems.

It's not an issue with the gun - it's a new M&P 9c. It fires factory ammo without a hiccup.

[billcarey]

The RCBS 3 set carbides have a crimp on the seater die and it sounds like you are backed out too far to get a crimp. Without a crimp the case mouth may be sticking out far enough (it doesn't take much) to interrupt feeding. I would make sure you are getting a good crimp before looking elsewhere.

It could be the magazine too. Just because one brand of factory ammo feeds ok it doesn't mean the magazine works for all ammo. Have you tried a different mag?

bc

[oneounceload]

The RCBS instructions that came with your set will have the details to use the seat die to get a proper crimp. Follow them, tweak it just right, and you'll be good to go.

[mineralman55]

"...run the ram up to the top, screw the die down til I have contact, then I back the die out about 1 full turn."

That's your problem. The seater/crimper is backed out too far and you're not removing the case mouth flare. Screw in the seater die until it just contacts the case. Lower your ram and screw it in another 1/8 turn or less. That should just remove the flare.

[CPTMurdoc30]

You die is not adjusted right. Read your directions on how to set the proper crimp with your RCBS 3 die set. It is easy if you READ THE DIRECTIONS....

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

This thread moderately concerns me. 45acp is a fairly forgiving round to reload. 9mm is not as much. It runs at a much higher pressure and seating depth comes into play BIGTIME. My advice (not to sound like a jerk) is to get a good reloading-how-to book. ABC's of Reloading is a good one. It explains the basics very well. Crimping is very important, especially in semi autos. It can both help prevent setback and removes the flare so the rounds can chamber freely and completely. It is imperative to understand how the dies work. Please be careful and good luck!

[mls4444]

Once again I would like to thank everyone for their comments (and some concern). I will be sure to add a taper crimp to my 9mm rounds in the future as this sounds as if this may be the problem.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter- you don't sound like a jerk and I appreciate the help. I'll look into getting the ABC's of Reloading. At the moment I have the Lyman manual and a few others, but any additional info can't hurt!

Since you guys seem to be saying that semi-auto rounds should have taper crimps, does this mean I should be adding them to my 45 acp rounds even though they're functioning without a problem and no signs of pressure or feeding problems?

Thanks!

[Nnobby45]

Once again I would like to thank everyone for their comments (and some concern). I will be sure to add a taper crimp to my 9mm rounds in the future as this sounds as if this may be the problem.

The first place you check to see if your reloads are going to feed is by dropping them into the bbl. Removed from the gun, of course. When your ammo passes this simple test, you're almost there.

They should plunk right in (below the bbl. hood) and fall right out.

Make sure bullet is seated properly. Out too far and it can be too long for the magazine. Too deep, and pressures rise. Refer to manual.


When you get your taper crimp, use your caliper (absolute must--recommend battery powered digital) to make sure the case mouth is returned to the right dimension. That's it's main purpose. Not to crunch down on the bullet and deform it so it's actually looser. Refer to manual for proper dimension. If you don't have a caliper right away, use your thumb to feel how much crimp you have. Use a factory round for reference. Get that caliper.

Make sure your primers are seated all the way. If they aren't, the firing pin has to seat the primer the rest of the way, and the movement obsorbs the blow. That's why they fire the second time around. Feel with your thumb to make sure they're at least flush--preferably below flush. High primers can keep the round from coming up under the extractor and cause feed problems.

[mls4444]

Nobby- I do have a caliper that I use for measuring the COL once my bullet is seated. I'll take your advice on measuring the neck size once the crimp is applied. As for the primers- they are seated well. Every time a round loads into the chamber it fires without issue. It's mainly just a FTF issue. Out of say 100 rounds there were maybe 10 FTF's! I originally tried to function check the rounds at the range by loading the magazine and manually cycling the rounds and ejecting them. This worked just fine, but that may have been coincidence. Those rounds fired and chambered without issue too.

-MLS-

[Nnobby45]

It's mainly just a FTF issue

Sometimes there can be a little confusion re: FTF, since it could be Failure to Feed, or Failure to Fire.

Use your bbl. for a guage. Notice how a factory round drops in with a distinctive "plunk". And then it falls right out.

Also, notice how far the case head is below the barrel hood it. If your ammo is made to the proper specs, it will do the same thing, and I can't think of any reason, off hand, why it wouldn't be reliable in your gun as long as facotry round nose works well.

Once the round is fired, it expands like any case would, and any previous dimension problems become irrellevent-- and I don't understand any failures to eject. Prove your gun with facotry ammo first.

[mls4444]

Ok- so I fired 100 9mm rounds today with some better success but still some Failures to Feed (FTF). I noticed something today when shooting though- my M&P 9c came with two mags- all of the FTF's came with the same magazine. Out of 100 rounds, there were 5 FTF's all with this same mag. So perhaps the magazine doesn't like my home made rounds?

For todays ammo I put a taper crimp (same dimensions as the factory ammo I was shooting with this gun) and I also shortened my COL from 1.135 to 1.120. The 1.120 more closely resembles the factory cartridge that feeds without issue in this particular gun.

Thoughts?

[chris in va]

Probably the mag, but might want to consider getting a Lee factory crimp die. If I don't use it with my 9mm's, the gun gets all kinds of upset.

The die essentially squeezes the whole case back to SAAMI specs so it will chamber in just about anything out there. Most of my loads run through it with little effort, but there's a few that are way out of whack and it lets you know it!

[rjrivero]

Magazines can be a culprit for many things including failures to feed.

Do you happen to have a case gauge for 9mm? I would highly recommend one. It helps to rule out reloads as a source for your failure. A good set of calipers will help too.

Is your "suspect" magazine factory? Some times the aftermarket magazines just aren't up to par. Is the "suspect" magazine easier or harder to load? The spring may be worn and cause your failure to feed. Does the follower tilt more than your "good" magazine? That also can be a sign that it's time for a new spring.

[chris in va]

It's not an issue with the gun - it's a new M&P 9c

Seriously doubt it needs new springs as...the gun is new.

[mls4444]

It's definitely not the magazine spring as it's a brand new gun with a brand new factory magazine. Perhaps it was just coincidence yesterday that the 5% of FTF's were with that one magazine. I will do more testing and we'll see!

I will get this 9mm round working perfectly!!!

[Don P]

Since you guys seem to be saying that semi-auto rounds should have taper crimps, does this mean I should be adding them to my 45 acp rounds even though they're functioning without a problem and no signs of pressure or feeding problems?

Yes to your question. I had problems with my 9mm reloads feeding in my SA XD. Not enough crimp causing the case to get hung up on the barrel while trying to feed.
As stated the 45 is a bit more forgiving and the crimp will help in reducing bullet setback.