1851 Colt Conversion Question

[EvilGenius]

I'm toying with the idea of building a custom 1851 converted navy revolver.

I want to buy a percussion and have it converted so I can retain the loading lever. I am looking at a Howells conversion, but I am confused on the .38lc vs. 38spl.

Most of the conversion sights say 38lc, but then I read about people supposedly loading theirs with 38spl. Apparently the Cimarron "man with no name" gun will load and shoot 38spl just fine despite the website, but I'd like to go a different route if possible.

Will the conversions not load and fire 38spl at all? I understand there are big reasons why they want to keep the power levels down in the "cowboy" region, I just dont want to get $500 into this and find out that I cant just used light load 38spl for conveniences sake.

[Hawg]

The .38 special case is about .013 longer than the .38 long colt but it says on Howells site you can use .38 special hollow base wadcutters. The thing about using off the shelf .38 special is the bore of the navy is .375 and the .38 bullets are .357. You will have to use the hollow based bullets or cartridges with heeled bullets, otherwise they will rattle down the bore like a marble in a sewer pipe.

[Captchee]

like Hawg said , the 38 SP casings are little longer .
I have a Kirst and unless i cut the casings down , the loaded round is to long when using a heeled bullet. also the bore of my uberti 1851 is .388 and even with heeled bullets , , the bullet often shows tumbling on paper .
however not as bad as before i went to the heeled bullet.
That being said , one could probably come up with a deeper heel with short nose “modified wad cutter “ and possibly get it to work .
What I useis LC and then collect 38 special to cut down .
I load those with American select and 125gr heels cast from a mould I bought from Old west bullet moulds

I also like the idea of leaving the loading leaver ,. Just doesn’t look right IMO without it .
So im toying around with ideas for casting up an ejector rod thaat will let me keep the loading lever . Just have not gotten real serious about it .

[EvilGenius]

Part of the plan was to have Howells line the bore for .357, allowing me to usemodern diameter .38 bullets.

Would that then allow me to use a normal non-heeled .38 spl? Or would any length bullet on a .38spl case be too long to fit in the cyl?

[EvilGenius]

Captchee,

I hear ya. If you look at some of the mason conversion revolvers, you'll see that the loading ram pivot pin is extended and the ejector assembly is held on by it coming through the barrel/lever assembly blank and screwing into a tab on the side of the ejector rod housing.

I dont know if they sell specifically that piece anywhere, but that's the angle I'd go.

As for the plan for the gun I want. I really just want a fancy "BBQ gun" that I can barbie-doll like a lot of guys do with AR-15s as well as plink with for fun. I dont plan on shooting competitions or anything, but I do want it to be functional.

[Bishop Creek]

If you look at some of the mason conversion revolvers, you'll see that the loading ram pivot pin is extended and the ejector assembly is held on by it coming through the barrel/lever assembly blank and screwing into a tab on the side of the ejector rod housing.

I dont know if they sell specifically that piece anywhere, but that's the angle I'd go.

Like this? (scroll down to the bottom):

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/1851-61-colt-navy.html

I have a .36 "58 Remington with the barrel relined to .357 and an R&D converter it takes .38 Special just fine. So does my Richards-Mason 1851 American Frontier Fire Arms Colt converted to .38.

[EvilGenius]

Not Quite.

You should be able to see what I mean in this close up from an auction.

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com...879dffce23.jpg

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com...0e674a5309.jpg

You can see how this gun doesnt have a slot for the loading lever, but the pivot pin screw that would hold the lever in is still there. So they use an extended one to reach through and grab the tab coming off of the ejector housing.

[Captchee]

As for the plan for the gun I want. I really just want a fancy "BBQ gun" that I can barbie-doll like a lot of guys do with AR-15s as well as plink with for fun. I dont plan on shooting competitions or anything, but I do want it to be functional.

When I first considered converting my 1851 I did a lot of reading on here . One thing that came up , time and time again was that folks would say it cost more to convert then to just purchase one already converted .

Ill back that up and say Yep that’s what happened and I didn’t pay full price for the parts either. But then I guess that includes buying bullet moulds, bullets , loading press … I came in just a little over cost and I cant” IMO shouldn’t “ use factor ammo . Which personally matters squat to me and im not sure I get the whole say under 1100fps thing or what its based on ,. But is still a consideration .

If you want to shoot modern loads in 38 special , save yourself the time and money and get one built to do that .
But weigh the benefits of that .
Basically nothing more then buying ammo off the shelf .
don’t be fooled into thinking that the so called Cowboy action loads , under 1100fps are somehow squib loads not effective , they are still more then capable of leaving some looking up at grass roots.

Am I sorry I converted mine .
Not in any way , though I would like to see if I can find another barrel with a bore that Mic‘s smaller . But I also like to learn new things and revolvers are something I know little about and I defiantly didn’t know about heeled bullets before I started working on my 1851 .
One the plus side , though . You will pay a lot less to reload then if you by box ammo and frankly the heeled bullet just looks cool .

As Bishop pointed out , Kirst offers a ejector assembly .
a) it does away with the loading rod . “ I know its supposed to . But frankly I don’t like the looks of the 1851 or 1860 without the rod.
b) Price ,,,,ahhhhhhh NOPE

Your first link is kind of what I been thinking . But I would like to do it so that the pivot pin is usable and thus the loading rod is kept in place .
Which means I will need to make a new hand for the ejector itself so that it will tuck up. But that’s not an issue .

[EvilGenius]

The cimarron gun isnt a bad choice and as I get closer to dropping the dough I may take a closer look. Certainly would be cheaper.

My plan is to get a london model (I want the steel grip frame), get the breach assembly dropped in (I kind of like the look) and refinish the grips (maybe even do a little bit of inlay) and finish it out with a nice custom holster.

As for the .38 spl, I've no intetion to shoot anything hot through it ever. I'd like to just grab a box of cheap .38spl and go. I do have a loading press, but havent set it up yet.

[AKexpat]

I have a Pietta Navy .36 steel that is less than 3 months old. Thought excitedly about the conversion but after finding out what a conversion cylinder and barrel relining costs, I would be better off using a Rem "1858" (what a misnomer) or Colt 1860 Army in .44 and buying a .45 Colt conversion cylinder. No barrel mod necessary. I believe one could also do a .44 Dragoon conversion in the same manner.

If I had to do it over (or if I had more money!) I'd go the .44 route.

My $.02.

Jim

[EvilGenius]

I've considered that as well.

I've already got an 1860 and a Walker. I'd like to keep the walker as is and the 1860 now belongs to my girlfriend. The biggest issue I have with converting the .44 guns is that you loose a round. I have no problems with 5 shot revolvers, but the whole safe handling bit means you'd have a 4 shot revolver, which seems silly to me.

The other deal is off the shelf .45lc is pretty expensive.

[45 Dragoon]

Convert Dragoons (6 shots)
Reload (cheaper than buying ready mades)


The Kirsts have a decent safety system. I keep 6 in my Dragoons and 5 in my Army (and, 6 in my R&D'd Remie!).


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[Magnum Wheel Man]

mine used TJ's .357 hammer forged liners, & custom made cylinders, which are chambered in 38 Long Colt... had my retired buddy do the machine work... & if I would have done one, it would have been about the same cost as the factory conversions... with the pair, I probably saved about $250.00... plus I got a lot of custom features... mine started out as Pietas from Cabelas, on sale at $179.00, plus I had 2 - $25.00 off coupons, so I got them new, & at a good starting price...

BTW... we consulted the SAMMI dimensions during the build, & discovered that it may be possible to chamber 38 Special cartridges in a loose end of SAMMI spec 38 Long Colt chamber, so we "short chambered" my guns to the minimum SAMMI chamber dimensions so only the 38 Long Colt would chamber, since we did not strengthen the base revolvers, I wanted to be sure that after I'm "gone" that someone doesn't stuff some +P 38 Specials in the gun...

... Hey... stranger things have happened... there was just a thread a while back, from a guy that blew up his die cast Rohm non +P revolver shooting +p's in it

don't know how noticeable it is, but I had my cylinders cut with 1/2 moon slots at the chambers, so I don't need an ejector housing, & can keep the now customized loading levers... the 1/2 moon slots allows easy extraction via finger nail, or if shooting CAS, with my screw knife





also have a converted Colt Walker, that was strengthened, & now shoots a cartridge I call 45 Walker... 460 S&W cases shortened 1/8" & loaded with smokeless to about medium-heavy 45 Colt loadings... also have a 51 that was strengthened & converted to 32-20...

[sandman_nv]

Very, very nice.

The brass sights are a definite inhancment.

How do you keep the loading levers up? Is that a screw i see in the loading lever of the bottom weapon in the bottom picture?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

yes... the loading levers are there, just to retain the classic looks... I could have dove tailed the bottom of the barrel & added the factory retaining catch, but, as I mentioned above, the pivot point was changed, to move everything slightly closer to the barrel, in combination with the tapered rod end, which was done to make re-holstering easier...

[Nickel Plated]

The "conversions" that you see on Cimarron's site (Cimarron revolvers are really just rebranded Uberti's BTW) are factory "conversions" and as such, not really conversions in the sense that they were never cap 'n ball to begin with. They were made right from the start as cartridge guns. As I understand, Uberti either cut back the recoil shield or otherwise lengthened the frame ever so slightly to allow them to use a longer cylinder which can chamber the longer .38 Special cartridge.
The actual conversions like Howell's and Kirst use the original percussion frame that can only take the shorter cylinder and so are limited to the slightly shorter .38 LC cartridge. The two cartridges are identical except for the length, so you can make .38 LC by just cutting down .38 Special brass if you can't find a source for .38 LC off the shelf.

I also came upon a third option for dealing with the bore difference between .36cal percussion and .38 cal cartridge. Besides either using hollow base bullets or having the barrel relined.

You can buy a factory .38cal conversion barrel that is already bored to the correct .357 bore. That's what I did with my Uberti 1858 Navy that I converted to .38 Spl. ordered a replacement barrel from Cimarron that's intended for the factory conversions. Screwed right in. The original barrel was a pain in the ass to remove since it's screwed into the frame TIGHT. On the Colts it should be a piece of cake since it comes off every time you clean the gun anyway. So just order the new barrel and drop it right in.

I decided it's better than having it relined because the new barrel cost about the same and saves you the hassle of shipping your gun back and forth, waiting for the smith to get around to it and then hoping he didn't half-ass the job.
Instead you get an original factory barrel that's already cut to the right caliber and you just drop it in.

[Trum4n1208]

You can buy a factory .38cal conversion barrel that is already bored to the correct .357 bore. That's what I did with my Uberti 1858 Navy that I converted to .38 Spl. ordered a replacement barrel from Cimarron that's intended for the factory conversions. Screwed right in. The original barrel was a pain in the ass to remove since it's screwed into the frame TIGHT. On the Colts it should be a piece of cake since it comes off every time you clean the gun anyway. So just order the new barrel and drop it right in.

I decided it's better than having it relined because the new barrel cost about the same and saves you the hassle of shipping your gun back and forth, waiting for the smith to get around to it and then hoping he didn't half-ass the job.
Instead you get an original factory barrel that's already cut to the right caliber and you just drop it in

Nickel Plated, that is a great idea, wish I had thought of that. I'm gonna file that away for future endeavors.

[bedbugbilly]

If it says you can use a 38 spell. then you can - the cylinder will be long enough for the cartridge. As mentioned, the 38 Colt Long is a shorter case than the 38 Spl. case.

Originally, the 38 Colt Short was the cartridge that was made to use in the early conversions (such as Richards & Mason). It of course was a BP cartridge. Later, they came out with the 38 Colt Long for use in the later Colt Navy and Army models (I'm talking late 1890s, early 1900s) which were pretty much the parent of the Colt Army Special which came out in 1908 - name later changed to "Official Police" in 1927 as a marketing ploy by Colt.

Anyway - if your cylinder is marked for 38 spl. - bear in mind you can also shoot both the 38 Colt Short and the 38 Colt Long in it. I load and shoot quite a few of both the Short and Long in 38 Spl. revolvers - both smokeless and BP.

One thing to remember - the bore on your converted Navy will be .360 (36 caliber) before it is rifled. You will need to use a hollow base or similar lead slug which will expand into the barrel upon firing. On my 38s, I only use cast and I usually load them as they drop from the mold - usually .358 - .359.

The modern Uberti made "conversions" - such as the Richards & Mason of the 1851 Navy - all have bores with modern 38 dimensions - i.e. .357 so you don't need to fool with a HB slug. Their 1872 Open Tops are the same way - .357 bores so modern size lead slugs will work.

But . . if you want to be authentic . . you can certainly convert a '51 (or other) with a conversion cylinder and it will work - just keep in mind that a standard .38 )i.e. .357 - .359) slug will not work as it will not "fit" the bore - you'll end up with lots of leading and poor accuracy. There are a number of mold makers making molds for bullets that will work however - just keep it in mind you're going to have to buy a mold for it.

38 Colt Short & Long brass is made by Starline - you can buy it from them in larger quantities or it's available from Track of the Wolf in smaller quantities. It depends on your 38 spell dies as to whether they will work with a 38 Colt Long asking to get it loaded. The FL sizing die will work - if your expanding die will adjust down to expand the mouth then you're good. The seating die - if the stem will adjust down enough to seat the bullet you are using and of course the same with the crimp - if it can be adjusted down far enough to put a roll crimp on the casing or not.

Lee makes a good set of 38 Colt Short/Long dies - best price I've found is from Titan. I have also used my 9mm expanding die and seating die in a pinch. On my 38 Colt Shorts, I just use a 9mm taper crimp as that's all it need to hold the boils in place for my revolvers - on the Short - I'm using lead bolts in the 90 - 100 grain range. In the 38 Colt Long - I use a 120 - 150 grain (I use a lot from a Lyman 358242 mold RN) and on my 38 Specials, I normally use the traditional RN from a Lyman 358311 - all those lead slugs in both Smokeless and BP.

I understand you wanting to make a custom conversion - but do some number crunching before hand. Compare the price of the components - i.e. new Navy, conversion cylinder, necessary bullet mold versus one already made as a conversion such as the Ubertis - I haven't done that but it may be enough of a difference to sway you one way or another?

Good luck with your project - try the different 38s - Colt Short, Long and Special - of course powder charges are smaller for the shorter cases and they are lots of fun to plink with.

[Nickel Plated]

Can anyone throw up a measurement of the Kirst 38LC cylinder? From the front of the cylinder to the rear face where the rim rests.

Thinking of getting a '51 navy and converting it.
I'm just curious how short I would have to load a .38 Spl to make it fit.
I know they are designed for .38 LC but I got a bunch of .38 Spl brass that I use for my Remington conversion and would rather be able to use the same ammo in both guns.

[Captchee]

mine measures 1.378
i cut my 38 SP casings to 1.034
i thought about the cimarron barrel for my 1851 . but when i called , they did not know if it was fit the BP frame . it looked to be wider . so there was some concern as to if it would fit the pin locations .

i was thinking about converting my 1860 to 45 LC but i just have not gotten around to it .

[Nickel Plated]

Thank you Captchee. 1.378 is a little short. The loads for my Remington are 1.40 not including the rim. But I should be able to seat the bullet a little deeper to make it fit.

Not sure why the cartridge barrel would be wider but it's possible. Remember the cartridge barrel doesn't have the cut out under the bore to fit aball under the rammer so that might make it look wider. but i never tried this on the Colts so don't take my word for it.

It worked on my Uberti Remington. The barrel was a slightly thicker profile than the original percussion barrel so I had to grind down the cylinder pin just a tad to clear the barrel but otherwise it screwed right in.

The frames on the Colts are a little different between the C&B and factory cartridge versions. The recoil shield is cut a little further back on the conversions which is what lets the Ubertis chamber .38 Spl. So it's entirely possible that they might have changed the barrel dimensions too.

[Nickel Plated]

Just thought I'd throw an update in here before people go wasting money. After doing more research it seems it is NOT possible to use the factory conversion barrels from Uberti on their percussion frames.
The frames are slightly taller on the cartridge guns to accommodate a wider cylinder that can hold 6 shots of .45 Colt. which cylinders intended for the percussion frames can not.
This is not historically accurate but I guess Uberti did it because .45 Colt is a popular cartridge and people like their 6 shooters to be 6 shooters.
Anyway the barrel is taller to accomodate the wider cylinder and taller frame.

Just getting it out there so I don't end up spreading bad info. Either way after searching all the various Uberti parts retailers, noone has them in stock, and I suspect those barrels are one of those parts that simply isn't available all by itself.

[Hardy]

these are great posts with excellent advise. I never could get a 38 conversion to fit in 36's so we sent them back. as a back up you can always call Taylors & Co and ask for tom. Tom is good

WBH