accidental shooting during firearm qualification training

westmich45 · January 9, 2024, 04:13 AM

OOPS...

There was an accidental shooting at the Howell Gun Club in Marion Township, Livingston County, MI, on Sunday December 17, 2023, at 2:30pm.

During the regular firearm qualification training of an armed church security team, one of the guards shot himself in the leg while they were practicing drawing their weapons when his coat caused an accidental discharge while he was re-holstering into a groin type holster. Others on the range performed first aid and the firearm instructor drove him to the Hospital.

The Livingston County Sheriff Office investigated the shooting (report #23-06152) at St Joseph Hospital where the Deputy interviewed the victim and the firearm training instructor. Both were career law enforcement of the State of Michigan. The firearm was not seized for malfunction testing and the investigation closed without interviewing any of the others present at the gun range.

Unknown if the instructor had any MCOLES or NRA certifications or qualifications to conduct a civilian security firearms training course other than law enforcement work experience.

I would like to see the range video recordings as it sounds more like a finger in the trigger guard than a coat causing the accidental discharge.

Double Naught Spy · January 9, 2024, 07:55 AM

I do believe that shooting yourself during qualifications is an automatic failure. I could be wrong on that in this case, but at least in some places it is considered a failure or politely as a DNF.

Groin type holster? Not where you want to have your unintentional discharge.

Career law enforcement? Geez.

rickyrick · January 9, 2024, 10:10 AM

Remember the officer that shot himself in the leg during a presentation to school children?
There was a video floating around for a number of years.

MrChick · January 10, 2024, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickyrick

Remember the officer that shot himself in the leg during a presentation to school children?
There was a video floating around for a number of years.

This one?

https://youtu.be/QNa5n2I_DUw?feature=shared

zukiphile · January 10, 2024, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNS

Groin type holster? Not where you want to have your unintentional discharge.

You wouldn't want to shoot yourself there either.

I've been harangued about the virtues of appendix carry and this is the scenario I can't get beyond. Don't point your pistol at anything you don't want to destroy.

Metal god · January 12, 2024, 11:54 PM

I been to several qualification/training type classes from security ,CCW to personal training and never has anyone failed to qualify regardless of how bad they shot . To be fair nobody shot them selves or others either haha . I’ve seen people pass that could barely hit paper . In my 20’s I trained for armed security and one guy in the class slept for at least half of it and they still passed him .

**JohnKSa** · January 13, 2024, 04:25 AM

I've seen one person fail, but it was due to multiple malfunctions of their firearm.

Metal god · January 13, 2024, 12:32 PM

In one of my CCW classes one person brought two old firearms that malfunctioned . The instructor allowed them to use the instructors firearm . It's an interesting concept really . At what point do you loose or can be told you don't get to defend your self ? Like I said I've been to several training classes , going for renewal in NV early Feb . In that original class several years ago that instructor believed all ccw holders should have training and should be required to pass a test , not only range test but written test as well . This gets into who came up with the test/s requirements and how is that to be enforced ?

That very much starts sounding like a "may" issue problem which I don't think most off us would except as reasonable and if I recall right Bruen said is unconstitutional ? . I personally would need to know the requirements because I'm not against and in fact very much encourage folks to know and be competent with there firearms . However who am I or anyone else to put a hard line in the sand when you or I can or can not use a firearm to defend ones self ? I'm OK with a class requirement for ccw but don't think you get a pass or fail , you simply must attend the class .

Wait there's more haha . Then you have states like CA that just added 8hrs to the required class going from 8 to 16hrs of class and range time combined . Ok lets say that's ok . The state never gave any reasoning for the additional time or instructions as to what needs to be covered that was not being addressed in a 8hr class . They simply just added an additional 8hrs to the requirement . This will obviously cost more , maybe even double the cost haha , for what appears to be no reason .

FoghornLeghorn · January 20, 2024, 04:30 PM

"Groin type holster." I hadda look that one up. They sure nuff exist. I couldn't believe it. They market it as a "crotch carry holster."

**44 AMP** · January 20, 2024, 08:35 PM

Was the gun loaded with ball ammunition??

FoghornLeghorn · January 21, 2024, 09:46 AM

Ironic, huh?

January 9, 2024, 04:13 AM	#1
westmich45 Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2024 Posts: 1	accidental shooting during firearm qualification training OOPS... There was an accidental shooting at the Howell Gun Club in Marion Township, Livingston County, MI, on Sunday December 17, 2023, at 2:30pm. During the regular firearm qualification training of an armed church security team, one of the guards shot himself in the leg while they were practicing drawing their weapons when his coat caused an accidental discharge while he was re-holstering into a groin type holster. Others on the range performed first aid and the firearm instructor drove him to the Hospital. The Livingston County Sheriff Office investigated the shooting (report #23-06152) at St Joseph Hospital where the Deputy interviewed the victim and the firearm training instructor. Both were career law enforcement of the State of Michigan. The firearm was not seized for malfunction testing and the investigation closed without interviewing any of the others present at the gun range. Unknown if the instructor had any MCOLES or NRA certifications or qualifications to conduct a civilian security firearms training course other than law enforcement work experience. I would like to see the range video recordings as it sounds more like a finger in the trigger guard than a coat causing the accidental discharge.

January 9, 2024, 10:10 AM	#3
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,239	Remember the officer that shot himself in the leg during a presentation to school children? There was a video floating around for a number of years. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

January 12, 2024, 11:54 PM	#6
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,877	I been to several qualification/training type classes from security ,CCW to personal training and never has anyone failed to qualify regardless of how bad they shot . To be fair nobody shot them selves or others either haha . I’ve seen people pass that could barely hit paper . In my 20’s I trained for armed security and one guy in the class slept for at least half of it and they still passed him . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

January 13, 2024, 04:25 AM	#7
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,022	I've seen one person fail, but it was due to multiple malfunctions of their firearm. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

January 13, 2024, 12:32 PM	#8
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,877	In one of my CCW classes one person brought two old firearms that malfunctioned . The instructor allowed them to use the instructors firearm . It's an interesting concept really . At what point do you loose or can be told you don't get to defend your self ? Like I said I've been to several training classes , going for renewal in NV early Feb . In that original class several years ago that instructor believed all ccw holders should have training and should be required to pass a test , not only range test but written test as well . This gets into who came up with the test/s requirements and how is that to be enforced ? That very much starts sounding like a "may" issue problem which I don't think most off us would except as reasonable and if I recall right Bruen said is unconstitutional ? . I personally would need to know the requirements because I'm not against and in fact very much encourage folks to know and be competent with there firearms . However who am I or anyone else to put a hard line in the sand when you or I can or can not use a firearm to defend ones self ? I'm OK with a class requirement for ccw but don't think you get a pass or fail , you simply must attend the class . Wait there's more haha . Then you have states like CA that just added 8hrs to the required class going from 8 to 16hrs of class and range time combined . Ok lets say that's ok . The state never gave any reasoning for the additional time or instructions as to what needs to be covered that was not being addressed in a 8hr class . They simply just added an additional 8hrs to the requirement . This will obviously cost more , maybe even double the cost haha , for what appears to be no reason . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

January 9, 2024, 07:55 AM	#2
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,718	I do believe that shooting yourself during qualifications is an automatic failure. I could be wrong on that in this case, but at least in some places it is considered a failure or politely as a DNF. Groin type holster? Not where you want to have your unintentional discharge. Career law enforcement? Geez. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

January 20, 2024, 04:30 PM	#9
FoghornLeghorn Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Posts: 961	"Groin type holster." I hadda look that one up. They sure nuff exist. I couldn't believe it. They market it as a "crotch carry holster."

January 20, 2024, 08:35 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,896	Was the gun loaded with ball ammunition?? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 21, 2024, 09:46 AM	#11
FoghornLeghorn Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2011 Posts: 961	Ironic, huh?