Pillars? Glass Beding? Help!

[davem]

I'm confused. Years ago you could glass bed a rifle to improve accuracy- I have that concept okay. Then along came Pillar bedding. The idea is the pillars create two solid points of contact and the metal pillars prevent crushing the wood in the stock.
I have a 700 Rem I bought a while back and want to improve it as much as possible. My confusion is what is the best way to proceed? On the Pillar bedding- is that ALL you do? In other words if you Pillar Bed you don't also try to glass bed the rest of the stock? or...do you do both? If you do both? Which part comes first? The pillars and then glass bed the rest?
Thanks for any help.

[tangolima]

Pillar bedding in its purest form is that the rifle action is in contact with the pillars only. It will not touch the stock at all.

The popular form of pillar bedding is a combination of pure pillar bedding and normal glass bedding. The action is in contact of pillars as well as stock around them. It is pillar enhanced glass bedding if you will.

Different people have different takes on which approach is the best. I like the latter. The pillars are installed while the stock is glass bedded, all in one step.

-TL

[olddav]

I have no insight as to which is the best but I have bedded a couple of rifles and perform both the pillar and glass bedding together. I believe that if I was going to perform one before the other I would install the pillars first. However I only have hunting rifles and no place to realy shoot distances beyond 200 yards so I have limited info on the subject.

[jmr40]

Over time the stock will "crush" somewhat as action screws are tightened. This is true of both wood and synthetic stocks. The pillars prevent this. If I were only doing one thing it would be pillars. In fact I don't find bedding to make much if any difference with synthetic stocks. It does somewhat eliminate variations in wood stocks as they expand and contract naturally from differences in environmental conditions.

[Bart B.]

There's no difference in the accuracy attainable with either type. As long as the stock screws are torqued to the same amount before each shooting session.

Pillar bedding was the solution for the first synthetic stocks being too soft in the receiver area.

Do whatever you want as long as the barrel has at least 1/16" clearance around it. No part if the barrel should be bedded. I'd epoxy the pillars in first then the rest of the receiver on Remmy round ones.

While pillar bedding's been popular since it's inception, many of the rifle match wins and records are produced with conventional epoxy bedding. More receiver surface area is in hard contact with it than pillar bedding provides.

[davem]

That was sort of my thought, that if I first put in the pillars- maybe putting a piece of tape under the wood areas in the action area- that I'd have the pillar contact points and then bed the action area. I have a synthetic stock in-line muzzle loader that shot 1" at 100 yard groups right out of the box (lucky me) and it has just those two anchor points so I was wondering if there was actually any further improvement by glass bedding the action if the pillars had already been installed.
On a Remington- what type pillars would be best? I'm also told that the bolt inside the pillar should not be in contact with the pillar. I was wondering how to accomplish that? I figured I'd wrap tape around the middle of the bolt and then after the pillar is firmly glued in place I can take the tape off the bolt and it won't be in contact with the pillar.
I've read some of the instructions on the Net but there are a lot of finer points that don't seem to be addressed, so, all help much appreciated.

[tangolima]

scorehi.com

-TL

[davem]

thanks for that Website, the only glass bedding compound I'm familiar with is Brownell's but someone said there are better epoxies. The other issue is the top of the pillar. some are concave to fit the action but others are flat and some folks say the flat tops are better. Once again, all help welcomed.

[BumbleBug]

I'm not sure, but I assume that this has something to do with a really "good" bedding job.

The most accurate rifle I own is a Rem 700/Hart .270 Win that was glass-bedded & pillar bedded to the original factory stock. I have worked up a number of accurate loads using 100gr Speer HP, 115gr Sierras HPBT, 130gr Speers SP, 150gr Sierras GK in this rifle. Amazingly, the impact of these loads group within a 1/2" of each other at 100yds & the variation is vertical. That means in all practicality they have the same sight-in zero at 100yds! For kicks, I shot one of each different bullet/load as a group & it was well under an inch.

I have other accurate rifles, but they tend to be very finicky about POI if I change bullets, even in the same weight range. Perhaps it is the bedding(?)

FWIW...

...bug

[Bart B.]

Devcon Plastic Steel, Bisonite and MarineTex shrink the least and are easy to use; the reason they're popular with competitors. Accuraglass is at the other end of the quality spectrum. Mix some baking flour with it to make it a little thicker so it doesn't run so easily.

[tangolima]

The pillars from scorehi are excellent for rem 700. They are concaved and angled to fit Remington's tubular action, and they are adjustable length-wise. Their installation screws make sure the action screws not touching the pillars.

Their bedding compound could be slightly better than the stuff sold by brownell's. It is more than good enough for my use (not quite record setting, matching winning). I agree steel putty is the best I have used.

-TL

[4runnerman]

I have in 9 rifles,never found a reason to go farther than pillar bedding.

[davem]

The Devcon Plastic Steel. I think there are several grades and what is needed is stuff only sold in huge 50 lb. lots (or there about). The Marine epoxy- I think a smaller amount is sold at Boats USA type shops.
Sounds like just doing the pillar bedding is all that is needed.

[Bart B.]

Devcon Plastic Steel only in 50-pound batches?

Better tell Ace Hardware that:

http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...ductId=1382310

Buy two of them and that should be enough.

[tangolima]

I use this

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...014529&alt=web

Note that the mix ratio is NOT 1 to 1. The instruction assumes you mix everything that comes in the package, which would be too much even for 3 bedding jobs. It should be 4 parts of black to 1 part of white.

-TL

[Clark]

davem
Pillars? Glass Beding? Help!
I'm confused. Years ago you could glass bed a rifle to improve accuracy- I have that concept okay.

Bart Bobbitt shot a 3.325" 20 shot group at 800 yards with a 308 in 1997.
I could shoot a 1.1" 5 shot group at 100 yards with a 223 in 1997.

If one uses my small number of shot groups and checks to see what accuracy rituals are important and what are not, they might find what I have found:

Big effect on accuracy
1) shoot when there is no wind
2) get a high power scope
3) practice dry firing and keeping cross hairs on bullseye
4) clean out Copper fouling in bore
5) good bullets
6) No expander ball use
7) jam bullet into lands
8) heavy gun and light bullet
9) float the barrel
10) keep barrel cool
11) expensive bull barrels
12) make sure scope mounts are tight to receiver

Little or no effect on accuracy
1) True the action face
2) true the inner C ring
3) lap the lugs
4) true the bolt face
5) chase the threads
6) speed up the lock time
7) glass bed the action
8) pillar bed the action
9) get a 1 ounce trigger
10) turn the case necks
11) weigh the brass
12) de burr the flash holes
13) weigh each powder charge
14) try different powders
15) use benchrest primers
16) lap the scope rings.
17) Dial in bore when chambering
18) re crown the muzzle

So it does not help much. I would bet that a bull barrel 17 mach II would get less from pillar bedding than a sporting taper barrel 458 Win Mag. The idea of glass bedding is to get a low compliance connection between barrelled action and stock so they react as a single mass during recoil. Some barrelled actions present more peak restrained force than others.

But I am doing it, as I am desperate for accuracy.
Here are three pics of me making concave pillars for a Rem700. I shot a 3x5 mule buck with that rifle in October at 477 yards. I got to see all 4 hooves go straight up as he rolled over. That 7mmRM rifle is working.
1/2" 6061 Aluminum rod
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...PMAKA=505-3647
Devcon steel putty
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...-prod5808.aspx


Cutting the concave end of the pillar using a boring head to fit the Rem700 round receiver diameter

Pre compressing the pillars against the receiver with screws before bedding.

Putting Devcon Steel putty on the pillar ridges I made for the epoxy to get a grip.
pics above same as links below

[Bart B.]

TL, is that DEVCON 10110 Putty you referenced on Ebay a thick putty that holds its shape when formed outside of any mould?

[tangolima]

Yes it is quite thick and can hold shape outside a mold. It can be thinned out a bit with more of the white resin. It is like steel when it hardens. I like it a lot, and use it for more than bedding.

-TL

[Bart B.]

I prefer thinner epoxy. It needs to flow easily into all the nooks and crannies as well as let air bubbles work out. Solid bedding's better than that with voids.

[davem]

I was wrong on the size, 1 lb. versus 50 but still a lot extra to glue in a couple of pillars (I think) In any event I thought the Devcon 10110 was what didn't shrink and lasted forever and was better than the Ace hardware Devcon Plastic Steel Epoxy- is it the same? The last time I spoke to someone on this they were also using it to "glass" bed the entire action.

[tangolima]

I have the steel putty on multiple bedding jobs. Never have had problem with air bubbles or voids. There is techniques to avoid that, even with thick compound. You want to first "wet" all surfaces with the compound. Then dump excess amount of compound at the lowest point of the channel. The the action is put in, you want to see compound oozing out.

BTW, compound from scorehi is pretty thick too.

-TL

[hooligan1]

After reading an article written by Bart, I ran down yo my local Ace hardware and purchased three sets of plastic steel dual syringe type epoxy.
He was absolutely right, it was simple to use and the results I have found improved the consistancy of my hunting rifles.
Savage 110 .270 win, Rem 700 30-06, Winchester model 70 7 mm rem mag.
They've been more consistant shooters than when I first picked them up.
All are synthetic, and with pillarbedding and Devcon Plastic Steel they seem not to scatter shots through "one after another, get the barrel hot" shooting.

Im sold thanx Bart.