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Old August 1, 2020, 05:15 PM   #26
Eazyeach
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I usually load 5-10 into my AR mags. Depending on what kind of drill I’m running. If I top off a 30 rounder it ends up being a mag dump. No self - control.
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Old August 1, 2020, 07:51 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by taylorce1 View Post
Any Appleseed events in your area?
What he said ^.
An Appleseed shoot will definitely make you a better shooter. Highly recommended.
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Old August 1, 2020, 09:52 PM   #28
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A book "Position Rifle Shooting"

But here is a dilemna. Despite your best efforts,you are almost certain to get some key things wrong.

Fundamental things. Which is to say you are about to build on a questionable foundation.

The real problem with that is developing bad habits and muscle memories that will take you in the wrong direction. These bad habits will establish a wall you will hit.
To get past the wall,you will have to unlearn the bad habits.That can be really hard.and at any time you may revert to bad habits.

So now you may be thinking "Gee,thanks. Way to rain on my parade. Nothing like a little discouragement!!"

No,I'm not going to leave you there. As Bart suggested,its best you find a coach.
I can't quite tell you how. It would be one on one,so COVID restriction should not be a problem.

How to search one out? You know your area and resources. I don't.
Ranges? Shooting Clubs? The VFW bulletin board? Your local gunsmith?
Are there any events you can attend to meet serious shooters?

You just might find an Old Guy who at least got serious with NRA smallbore.

This Old Guy might like nothing better than a reason to go to the range and pass on what he knows. You might breathe new life into him.

Or you might find an experienced service rifle competitor.

If you find someone,that book "Position Rifle Shooting" will help them coach.

I'll give you a clue as to whether you found a good one. If ,when you get started,he's looking down range at the target,you might want to keep looking.
He should be studying you. Position,sling,breathing,your eyes,your trigger finger.
Get a score book/log book. Make every shot a learning event.Write down all you can.

I watched an interview with Carlos Hathcock. He said the man who taught him his craft would take him to the range with one round, Carlos was to fire only one perfect shot. But he was to observe and record everything about that shot.Breeze in the grass,mirage,light,everything

I read of Ross Seifred. In his home South Africa,practrice ammo was a big deal. He was shooting a 1911. A practice session might be 10 rounds,or maybe two magazines. A few rounds,a mag change,a few more rounds.
His focus was to make those few shots perfect. It does you no good to practice poor technique.

Ross Seifred took that 1911 and won a world championship with it.

There is a CMP handbook that is well regarded.

The NRA used to have a course/qualification that could be done by mail if necessary. That might be a resource. It might help locate a coach.Shooting at 50 ft rimfire targets with 5.56 ought to work The 10 ring is the size of a 22 bullet. 11 bulls on a target.One for a sighter. Then one perfect shot at each of 10 bulls.

As far as setting up your AR,browse White Oak Armament. You don't have to spend a bunch of money there,but you can see how they set up target rifles.
Get Zelweigers book on the AR.

A spotting scope is a good tool.It lets you verify a call right then,while everything is fresh.
I'm probably right that,bang for the buck,a Rock River 2 stage National Match trigger is a good upgrade.Brownells (or others) can sell you a good 1907pattern sling. Browse Creedmoor Sports.

Good luck

Last edited by HiBC; August 1, 2020 at 09:59 PM.
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Old August 2, 2020, 06:49 AM   #29
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I've been shooting from the bench for so long that, when instructing people who haven't shot much, I'm amazed at how many ways they can hold a rifle wrong. Some of the worst problems include:

-Having the front sling swivel on the bag, or just touching the far side, so it impacts the bag at recoil;
-Positioning the rear bag incorrectly, so the stock is not positioned where it's supporting the rifle;
-Failing to hold the forend down on the bag when shooting a hard-recoiling rifle;
-Not having the butt of the rifle properly located on both the shoulder and on the rear bag;
-Leaning backward instead of leaning into the rifle;
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Old August 2, 2020, 07:05 AM   #30
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One of the things i see alot of are people resting the barrel on the front rest.
Also a death grip on the trigger hand. Loosen your grip on the trigger hand. When i tried this, i was amazed at how much i was trying to torque the stock.

With a 2, or 3 MOA dot sight, the most accurate you can expect is 2-3 MOA.
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Old August 2, 2020, 08:33 AM   #31
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I think we need to establish what conditions are used to best define our marksmanship skills.

Our abilities to support and aim rifles then shoot bullets accurate are not tested when the rifle's resting on anything atop a bench.

The 10 ring on 200 and 300 yard high power match rifle targets is 7 inches. Nobody shoots tens all the time from prone, sitting or standing with stuff that tested 1/2 MOA bench rested.

Last edited by Bart B.; August 2, 2020 at 02:14 PM.
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Old August 3, 2020, 06:13 AM   #32
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Benching

When I need to shoot from the bench, I normally shoot “off my elbows”. This is much closer to how I hold and handle the gun when shooting from prone.
I do not engage in benchrest competition so shooting tiny groups is not important to me. If I need additional stability, i will take a soft pack...or a sand bag, etc....and rest my front hand on it. Other than that I try to hold the gun as much like I would in prone as is possible.
I use the MR-31 target for my AR and the TQ-4 for rimfire.
For hunting rifles, i use whatever is handy....as long as I can see it at 100 yards.
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Old August 3, 2020, 05:30 PM   #33
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I finally got my front sling swivel in today and mounted. In the mean time, I used some para cord to tie my sling to the rifle and did some off hand using it today.

I have a lot to work on, but I'm mostly in the black of an NRA 25 yd slow fire pistol target at 25 yards and I'm happy to see improvement over 20 rounds today.

I followed the advice of 1 round per mag and it really helped me focus on THAT shot, not the next one.

The USMC marksmanship manual and Sight Alignment, Trigger Control & The Big Lie (which I just finished today) have tons of good info.

I need to get some iron sights on this thing, I'm having way too much fun with this to just leave it with the RDS.
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Old August 3, 2020, 06:25 PM   #34
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Standing,or offhand.. First,I'm not a coach or competitor.

Feet comfortably shoulder width,roughly. Let the bones of your frame stack naturally. Yo some degree,you will offset to balance the rifle,but you want your bones stacked as naturally as possible

Find your natural point of aim. Take a good look at your target. Close your eyes. Shoulder your rifle as if you were going to shoot. Open your eyes.

Where is your rifle pointing? Shift your feet and the hand on the forend till you open your eyes to aligned sights on target.

That may involve some work on your comb height or sight height. You need a "spot weld" Which is a landmark on your face that finds a landmark on the rifle the same way,every time. It needs to be a part of your eye aligning with the sights

Now,an important part about your bone stacking,shouldering the rifle,eye alignment,etc.

Don't tilt your head and take your face to the gun. Bring the gun to your face.

Here is why. As you are standing,little signals to your muscles keep you standing. Its about your sense of balance. The sensors that control your balance are in your inner ears. Straight up and level,your ears can find the placid ,level,peaceful pond. That is where you will wobble the least.

I'll leave you there.
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Old August 4, 2020, 09:15 AM   #35
reinert
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I'm glad you found the Jim Owens book useful. I've got a copy, too, and found it helpful in my long range B.P.C.R. shooting using an iron tang sight arrangement. Do you have a .22 rimfire? Open sights on it? Some of the best practice you can ever do for yourself learning technique and consistency, shot to shot, will be using the .22 rimfire (IMO). It would be fun/interesting to "magically" see the pile of spent .22 cases I've fired through the past 60+ years of my shooting experience (and that's JUST .22rf, Ha!).

I can't imagine what it must be like to only be able to shoot indoors, and at only 25 yds. I live in Wyoming, and the opportunities I have at our local range, and the public land I can use, is virtually unlimited as to how close, or far away, I can shoot... and I never take that for granted, either.

I too have played with the idea of doing the appleseed program for the past couple of years, but haven't yet. It looks like a lot of fun, and I'm sure any shooter, novice or veteran, will enhance, glean and hone their shooting skills in being a participant. Again, it looks like a lot of fun, and with a .22rf! The covid-19 business has curtailed the program offerings in my area, so I don't believe I'll try it this year, but this is a cool site you can log into to try your skills from the appleseed folks. I downloaded the 15 yd. target and went out and shot it yesterday at our local range with my Ruger American RF (and a 4x Nikon rimfire scope), and shot a 37! I was elated! Fun! Dang near made Rifleman on the first (and only) try yesterday! You can do the same, fun, appleseed shoot too, by downloading any of their targets from this website. And since you're limited to a 25 yd. range, you'll have room to spare at a 15 yd. target. Hopefully you have a rimfire, and hopefully you have printer capability on your computer. Here's the site:

www.appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=9833.0

Just follow down on the site trail until you see "refine your skills..." and print your target. I shot the second one down the list; 15 yds. FUN!
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Old August 4, 2020, 09:50 AM   #36
ghbucky
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Quote:
Don't tilt your head and take your face to the gun. Bring the gun to your face.
I'm not sure I understand how this would work. I know I'm really having a hard time getting a good, consistent weld on the milspec AR stock. Kind of hate the thing.

A magpul stock is on my to do list.

Thanks, Reinert for the link. I don't have .22 RF, but no reason I can't at least play the game as well.
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Old August 4, 2020, 12:21 PM   #37
HiBC
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Note many folks firing an AR pattern rifle holt the buttstock high. 1/2 the buttplate above the shoulder.
Some AR buttstocks have an adjustable comb.
If your AR has an M-4 type collapsable stock,the reasonably priced Rock River buttstock has an adjustable buttplate. It will slide down.

IMO,for examples to illustrate, You go to a muzzle loader shoot,you see some fine offhand shooting. Those rifles were built for shooting a patched roundball at practical ranges of about 60 yds. Offhand game or enemy shots.

Look at the drop in the stock. Look at Schutzen rifles. Look at the drop in the stock. Those folks could shoot. The rifles were designed to fit the body.

Then look at the Mauser and other WW1 era bolt guns. How does taking a careful bead standing on your hind legs work out in WW1 conbat? Not very long.

There were other priorities besides offhand marksmanship. One would be getting your belly button and head as low to the ground as possible.

The other priority would be the rifle as a handle for a bayonet.

The AR's straight line design was for control under high volume fire. Precise marksmanship versus 30 round magazines.

Note the high sights on top of the carry handle on the M-16.

Maybe a higher line of sight will help you.

I suggest you not form the bad habit of bending your head off level if you want to shoot standing.Its something we are stuck with. Taking the inner ears off level will increase body wobble. You gain advantage with your head in natural erect position.
If you watch Miculek try to teach you fast and accurate handgun shooting,he will teach you standing naturally and bringing the handgun up to your line of sight. No scrunching or posturing. Watch his vid and see how it works

To complicate matters,dynamic combat type moving and shooting has its own rules and techniques.

Like a basketball free throw is different than a layup.

Last edited by HiBC; August 5, 2020 at 06:42 PM.
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Old August 5, 2020, 09:43 AM   #38
natman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghbucky View Post
I'm just getting comfortable with the AR, but my shooting is disappointing.
Get a bolt action 22 with a sling. There are techniques you have to learn such as trigger squeeze, sight picture and holding on target and they are much easier (and cheaper) to learn on a 22 without blast and recoil.
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Old August 5, 2020, 10:25 AM   #39
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I consider this the definitive book on shooting a rifle, David Tubb isn't an armchair expert or gun writer, he's consistently been one of the best shots with a rifle for over 40 years, probably holds more national records than anyone in history.

http://www.davidtubb.com/book-rifleshooter


Who is David Tubb?
http://www.davidtubb.com/About-David_Tubb
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Old August 5, 2020, 11:59 AM   #40
reinert
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Another shooter, a hands down Iconic legend, was Lones Wigger. If there's a good bio on the man, please post it; I'd really like to read it.

www.mrra.org/downloads/Lones_Wigger.pdf
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Old August 5, 2020, 12:49 PM   #41
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This pretty good book on wind.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/book...d-dvd-bassham/
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Old August 5, 2020, 01:13 PM   #42
Double K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reinert View Post
Another shooter, a hands down Iconic legend, was Lones Wigger. If there's a good bio on the man, please post it; I'd really like to read it.

www.mrra.org/downloads/Lones_Wigger.pdf
Wig as he was known to his friends was a coach at the olympic training center in Colorado Springs for many years, he occasionally went to local silhouette matches but was nearly always at 22 benchrest matches, he even ran a few of his own. I went to all of them, he wasn't real forthcoming with tips if it was a bigger match but I always really enjoyed talking to him and his kids who are the same age as me.
Once when I was really struggling with my ammunition during the warm up and was about to call it quits he gave me a box of Tenex that he had sorted somehow, it shot wonderfully so he gave me 3 more boxes for the match, ended up in 3rd place behind him and Danny.
He never would tell me how he sorted Tenex!
We miss him.
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Old August 5, 2020, 06:14 PM   #43
reinert
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Good post, DK. I remember seeing his name a lot from many years ago, and his standings in the shooting world was amazing...for many years. Hopefully a good bio on the man might/could come down the literary pike in the future. Quite the man in the shooting world, a real American icon.
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Old August 5, 2020, 08:52 PM   #44
ghbucky
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Thanks all for the reading lists and the tips.

I met my older bro for some shooting at a 300yd outdoor range today and shot for around 6 hours. I am very pleased. No more whinging on my stock. I'm comfy with the rifle now.

Printed on paper off-hand with a hasty sling at 100yds. Very pleased.

Used my bro's M1 to score a hit on a static target at 330 yards with iron sights (please don't ask how many it took ). What a fun day!
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