Struggling with range scrap

[chris in va]

For years I've been using WW tested at about 15bhn and powder coated with good accuracy in all calibers up to 1700fps. Unfortunately WW are getting scarce so I bought 100# of range scrap and cast up some 9mm.

Big mistake. I couldn't hit a steel target at 25 yards, we're talking feet of spread. When I got home they test about 9bhn so I had to pull them. My CZ slugs at 355 and I have them sized at 358 as usual.

I've been reading people mix 50/50 with WW and scrap with good results but it would be nice if I could just buy something to add a small amount to my scrap melt that brings it up to 15-ish.

[Recycled bullet]

Roto metals sells ingots of "super hard" alloy for this purpose. It is 30/70 antimony/lead. It melts easily and significantly improved hardness and casting ability.

I like to mix in tin in a matched percentage to the antimony. The bullets end up very strong and hard and flexible and the results are fantastic.

I use an excel spreadsheet type of lead alloy calculator that I found on castboolits.

Data entry the numbers and if you put the correct inputs you can get repeatable results.

I am shooting plain base powder coated bullets with great results in 9mm and 357/38 and experimenting in 308.

I like to shoot my cz at fifty yards off hand unsupported at nine inch paper plates. I'm getting about a 75% bullets hitting on the plate. Of the strikes on target I usually can get about a six inch group centered in the plate with my 92/4/4 cast 124 grain hollow point loaded over auto Comp.

[mehavey]

92/4/4

.. is "pretty much" Lyman #2/15-ish

That said, I'm not surprised "scrap" came out at ~9.
(Ingots of my aged WW from the 1980s come out at (pretty much again) exactly that)

[chris in va]

Have you had a chance to test the BHN of the super hard/scrap mix?

I still had some bare 9mm sitting around that tested 15 so I PC and immediately water dropped. At first it tested about 9, but 15 hours later it's back to 15 so I'll try loading a few today.

I also bought some 'linotype' off eBay, one bag tests 14 and the other 18bhn. I'm hoping to achieve 15 mixing scrap with these thin bars, so we'll see.

[44 AMP]

"WW" is "Winchester Western"

When used with the Roman numeral "I" or "II" it refers to World Wars...

took me a bit, but I gather from context you're talking about wheel weights (for balancing automobile wheels), which is not a proper name and therefore should not be capitalized, and its best practice to use the full name of a thing the first time it is mentioned, and then the abbreviation after that.

Helps to prevent confusion so we know you're talking about wheel weights, and not Walter Winchell, Wool Wax......or a wascally wabbit!

I think the lesson here is one of process order. You bought an unknown alloy, cast and loaded it for a specific application (9mmLuger) and when you got poor results, THEN tested it for hardness.....

seems like putting the cart before the horse, to me....
but, that's just me...

[Marco Califo]

I recall seeing drums of "reclaimed shot" at a very large clay target range, with trap and skeet fields in constant use. Unknown metallurgy, mixed sizes, and dirt. I was never sure if shotgunners reloaded that stuff, or re-dropped it, or processed it as scrap lead.
I think they used some sort of sweeper, and then cleaning process. I never as much as inquired about the price.
Yes, scrap lead would need study and adjustment of mix.

[chris in va]

This is the bullet casting forum, it's pretty obvious WW means wheel weights and not World War or Walter White or White Water.

Likewise PC means Powder Coating and not Politically Correct or Pretty Cute.

I can understand the confusion if I said 'WW' in the rifle section.

[Recycled bullet]

I like to get stick on walter white world war wheel weights or rmr bullet core lead as base metal when I'm mixing alloy.

My last batch was ninety six pounds mixed in a big soup pot. It was a mix of different stuff I had laying around. I have not tested hardness with a machine tester. I test hardness and coating strength with a big hammer and a steel plate.

I'm down to my less than fifteen pounds of bullet metal. Where did it all go???

Maybe next week I'll order hundred twenty pounds of metal from Rocky mountain reloading, couple ingots of super hard from roto metals, scale out the tin ingots I've got laying around.

I like to sharpie the weight in ounces in the tin ingots then go play with the alloy calculator and make a decision.

I'll plug the numbers into the alloy calculator and it will get me close enough for my purposes. I'll assemble the pieces in the big soup pot, turn on the gas, and wait.

Mix it all up, flux out the trash with beeswax, then start pouring ingots. It's much faster with at least three Lyman ingots molds.

I like good casting metal. I like clean shooting guns that are reasonably accurate. I like blasting paper plates at various distances.

Soon I'll be raining bullets

[Jim Watson]

You can buy reclaimed shot to reload, washed but mixed sizes 7.5, 8, 9 typical from a combination Trap and Skeet range. The mixed sizes and deformation will spread the pattern which is not a bad thing for Skeet and 16 yard Trap.
I would be suspicious of shot in a drum at the field, it might not have been cleaned.

A friend bought some hundreds of pounds of shot from a store going out of business.
He loaded sizes 7.5 and smaller for Trap, Skeet, and SC, larger sizes he melted down, added some tin and cast bullets with.

[P Flados]

I use lead from range scrap for all of my casting. It is medium soft. I load full power 9mm, 357 Mag, & 357 Max with the stuff.

The 9mm was the hardest round to get a good load worked up.

Among other stuff, I found that I needed a bigger expander plug. This prevents the case from sizing down the bullet as it is seated.

[chris in va]

Maybe that's what happened, I have to FCD everything for reliable feeding, maybe the softer lead got squished too much.

[Recycled bullet]

That's very possible. Have you tried seating and crimping in separate steps using the bullet seating die?

I am assuming you are using Lee dies. I have used only Lee dies in loading 9mm.

[chris in va]

I got a chance to hit the range today. The 9mm powder coated that are 10bhn were no good at 7 yards, and one even went in sideways. I didn't FCD or size, they measured .357 out of a slugged .355 barrel.

On the other hand my 38's out of my Henry did stellar and the 45's were halfway decent.

The pucks I mixed 50/50 scrap/wheel weights only measured about 10, although those weren't water dropped obviously. I am getting frustrated with these 9mm having never had a problem before when I used straight wheelweights.

[vtech26]

Originally Posted by P Flados

I use lead from range scrap for all of my casting. It is medium soft. I load full power 9mm, 357 Mag, & 357 Max with the stuff.

The 9mm was the hardest round to get a good load worked up.

Among other stuff, I found that I needed a bigger expander plug. This prevents the case from sizing down the bullet as it is seated.

I've been down this road before and the solution was to expand the cases. When they are expanded, you are not squashing them down when seating. Do this, load one, pull and measure. This will verify that they are being squeezed down.

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[Unclenick]

Chris,

Note that the 9mm is a higher-pressure cartridge than the two that are behaving for you. If you avoid pressures higher than 1400×BHN, you won't have the pressure distorting the bullet base. For BHN of 10, that's 14,000 psi, which will run the 45 and 38 just fine but is pretty low for a 9mm that hasn't been set up for light target loads.

The problem with wheel weight metal, even when it was still plentiful, is there wasn't a set formulation, so it varied over time and with which metals company was supplying most of it for a given region of the country. Lyman measured its wheel weights as 95.5:4:0.5 lead:antimony:tin. But Jim Calhoun analyzed some in a lab in the mid-'90s and got 97.4:2:0.6, IIRC. That's enough difference to lose a couple of BHN numbers pretty easily.

So we don't really know what you had that was working well for you before. What we can do, though, is guess that if your pressure is in the 20,000 psi range, then when you divide that by 1400, you get a BHN of 14. Teracorp Magnum Alloy (Hardball Alloy at Rotometals) is 92:6:2, IIRC, and that should get you up to about BHN 16 and would be a fairly safe choice, I expect.

In the case of the recovered backstop lead, a lot of that will be 22 rimfire lead, which, like a lot of commercial swaged bullets, isn't very hard. Probably one or two percent Antimony. the Excel sheet at the Castboolits forum suggests 1.5% antimony, and the rest lead would give you about BHN 10. Lead used to fill jacketed bullets usually has a little more antimony than that, but people shoot so many 22 LR rounds that it may be swamped out by the little slugs.

If the Antimony Man were still in business, I'd send you to his site to order. Meanwhile, both Midway and Rotometals have 70% lead and 30% antimony for about $25 a lb. You could buy one pound and melt with six pounds of range lead and add about 2 ounces of 95-5 lead-free-zinc-free plumbing solder and come pretty close to that Tercorp Magnum/Hardball Alloy. Increase the solder to 4 ounces for better ease of casting if you are willing to spend that much.

Note that 1400, above, is an easy-to-remember number, but it is close to exact. Richard Lee preferred to use 1280 to provide some wiggle room for shot-to-shot pressure variation.

[Marco Califo]

Since lead is toxic, it's use in wheel weights has decreased. Europe and California have banned the use of lead in wheel weights. Also zinc is used as a partial or full alternative. So, if you do find wheel weights, you will need to consider whether the alloy used is compatible with bullet casting.

[chris in va]

I managed to cast some 'linotype' (18bhn) and range scrap bullets last night. After powdercoating they measure 15bhn per the Lee tester so I'm very happy about that.

Unfortunately all my sources for primers have dried up for some unknown reason.