neck size or full length size ?

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

I have no idea where the case is sitting when it fires. Don't really care.

Thanks for admitting your knowledge level about the issue.

Redding has virtually identical misinformation on their web site about what happens before then when the round fires. As does so many printed pages across all mediums.

[pwc]

Hounddog - now I wish your wife had whacked you with the spoon. Just when things were winding down......

It's like the little Irishman in the bar who starts a fight, then goes around drinking everyones beer while they are fighting.

[F. Guffey]

PWC, please forgive.

Redding has virtually identical misinformation on their web site about what happens when the round fires. As does so many printed pages across all mediums.

A friend built 4 magnificent rifles chambered to a 7MM Wildcat with a reamer he made. He took the first one to the range, he had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 rounds he fired. He called, I told him he could have tested the rifle for that problem before he left the shop, I told him I could have met him at the rang and fixed the problem long enough for him to fire form his cases.

Years later one of the rifles cam back, he took the rifle to smiths that had to tell him they did not have a clue, one of them informed him he needed a bore scope. SO? He took the rifle to a smith with a bore scope expert. Nothing, no clue.

The next place he visits? Not a problem but he asked me where would I start. I told him, he then went to the Internet and got advise He wanted to show me what he learned on the Internet; he had to admit he had no ideal what they were talking about but it sounded like they knew what they were doing.

I explained to him when the bolt closes the chamber becomes a dark place, I explained to him that drives most reloaders to the curb. I explained to him I could determine where the case was located in the chamber before and after the firing pin hit the primer, I explained to him I could determine if there was a chance the case would suffer case head separation when the round fired. And I informed him I could measure free bore as in how far the bullet has to travel before it contacts the rifling.

Anyhow; when he left he knew what he had to do to repair the rifle. When he got home he jumped onto the Internet to locate the tools we used. No luck, he called asking where the tools came from. I explained to him if he wanted the tools we would have to make them.

On another day he called and wanted to know what was wrong with Remington Ammo. I told him their phone number was on the box; call them. And then he shows up with 15 fired 30/06 cases and 5 that failed to fire. Before he arrived they had managed to hit the primers 6 times with firing pins in three different rifles. The first rifle was new.

I measured, pulled the failed to fire rounds apart and weighed and measured them and compared the fired cases with the failed to fire cases and I was impressed with Remington ammo.

I removed the primers, I installed the primers back into the case they were removed from and then dug out one of my M1917s with a killer firing pin.

Like magic, ever primer busted off with one pull of the trigger. I knew where the case was in the chamber, I demonstrated the technique/method. When he got home he called back wanting to know where the tools and gages were available from. Same answer, we got to make them. And then there are tools that are available, finding someone that knows how to use the tools could be difficult.

And I said: Now we need to call the owner of the new rifle that purchased the Remington ammo, and that was not going to happen, no one got the phone number

F. Guffey

[cw308]

dawg
Isn't it amazing how all the know it alls appear at the same time. Adding double talk to make them sound correct . I find it amusing . Hang in there d

Chris

[hounddawg]

Thanks for admitting your knowledge level about the issue.

well no xray vision here bart, I just have to close the bolt and hope I am reading the elements right and that my hold is consistent.

Redding has virtually identical misinformation on their web site about what happens before then when the round fires. As does so many printed pages across all mediums.

so now not only Forster does not know what they are talking about but neither does Redding ? I guess you and Guffy need to go yank a knot in those guys butts and get em straight

pwc Hounddog - now I wish your wife had whacked you with the spoon. Just when things were winding down......

been on this forum for ten years now, not a lot has changed. Same players making the same arguments two or three times a month. Pretty sure it was going on before I got here. It's free entertainment, what can I say

It's like the little Irishman in the bar who starts a fight, then goes around drinking everyones beer while they are fighting.

Welsh and don't forget about picking up a fifth while the bartender is distracted and slipping off with the prettiest girl

[Metal god]

I guess you and Guffy need to go yank a knot in those guys butts and get em straight

LOL , never heard that one before , Wait can't we just do that with one of the members here . That may solve a lot of unneeded back and forth .

I have no idea where the case is sitting when it fires.

All I know is most of my rifle ejectors are pushing really hard on the head when chambered . To me this means my shoulders are fully forward pressed up against the chambers shoulder before firing . What the firing pin does in that case when it contacts the primer I have no idea .

My thinking is if my ejector is pushing the case forward in the chamber . Depending on how much clearance I have between my case body and my chamber walls . By pushing hard on only one side of the case head . I'd think my case is likely sitting off center a bit to the bore axis before firing . Does the firing pin straighten that out when fired ? That I will never know because I can't fit in the chamber to see what happens when the rifle fires .

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by Metal god

All I know is most of my rifle ejectors are pushing really hard on the head when chambered . To me this means my shoulders are fully forward pressed up against the chambers shoulder before firing . What the firing pin does in that case when it contacts the primer I have no idea .

That's correct. Pin fires the primer and drives the case harder against the chamber shoulder. Sometimes setting the shoulder back a thousandth or more.

My thinking is if my ejector is pushing the case forward in the chamber . Depending on how much clearance I have between my case body and my chamber walls . By pushing hard on only one side of the case head . I'd think my case is likely sitting off center a bit to the bore axis before firing . Does the firing pin straighten that out when fired ? That I will never know because I can't fit in the chamber to see what happens when the rifle fires .

That may cause the case head to go off center but the extractor pushing sideways on the case will definitely push the case head off center. The case body pressure ring then touches the chamber. The case may jump off that point from firing pin impact straightening the case bit in the chamber. Whatever off center the case is, the bullet tip will be about half that much off center in the opposite direction with a perfectly straight cartridge.

As long as all this is repeatable from shot to shot, all's well.

Cut the barrel off at the chamber mouth then chamber a primed case and watch its mouth move around the chamber front as all the rifle parts function and move things around.

[cw308]

Well done d

[hounddawg]

Bart B.


Redding has virtually identical misinformation on their web site about what happens before then when the round fires. As does so many printed pages across all mediums.

are you referring to Dealing with Headspace by Todd Spotti ? I was pretty impressed with the article

Did a search on the author and found that guy has a tremendous amount of info on this website on a variety of shooting related subjects

Tom Spotti

[Metal god]

but the extractor pushing sideways on the case will definitely push the case head off center.

It's interesting you say that . I've always assumed the extractor was cut/milled in a way that they fit into the extractor grove and once they snapped over the rim they no longer put any pressure/force on the case . They only made contact when they were pulling the case out or if you had major head clearance and they stopped the case from moving fully forward when fired or chambering . Kinda like shooting a 40 S&W in a 10mm chamber ?

Here we go again way off topic and I'm helping

[Bart B.]

Remove the bolt, then put a primed case in its head. Lower the firing pin. Note where all the forces on bolt parts move the primed case.

Compare your findings to what Tom Spotti says. He's ignoring what bolt face in-line ejector force does to chambered rounds. It's much less than firing pin forces. Both happen before primers fire. He doesn't have, in my opinion, the wherewithal to understand why bolts must close freely on cases without any resistance for best accuracy

[hounddawg]

I don't shoot my rifles with the bolt open. If you ever figure out how to climb inside the chamber with a properly sized round with the bolt open let me know what happens, or not. I really do not care to be concerned over that which I have no control over.

[Bart B.]

The bolt is out of the rifle in my above test. I never said to put it back in the rifle.

You have total control of how your cartridges fit the chamber. You can alter or replace any rifle or cartridge part to change it.

[hounddawg]

so you don't know how a cartridge sits inside the chamber with the bolt closed ? So what can I do to a cartridge other than size it, and seat the bullet and primer correctly and check for concentricity. I already do all that, I was hoping you could tell me what more I could do since you claim to know more than Redding and Forster about these things.

[Bart B.]

Yes, I know how cartridges fit chambers, before, during and after firing. Furthermore, this is not about reloading. It applies equally to new, unfired cartridges, too.

Easy to learn after one knows how external and internal forces act on them. And what the forces are to start with.

I've tried to explain this. Have you tried what I suggested with the bolt and a primed case?

You can push a case into a stripped bullet seating die then watch its mouth center on the bullet chamber. Functionality the same as the barrel chamber.

[hounddawg]

now what would a case sitting in a stripped die tell me about how a case would fit in a chamber? I have to lube a die and apply a great deal of force to a case to get it into a die. The case will fall in and out into my chamber until I fire it and the brass expands.

Like wise the head of a case forced into a bolt with no support for the body of the case from the cahmber walls shows nothing as far as how that case sits in a closed chamber. This is just nonsensical noise in my opinion.

maybe this would help you understand a bit better

Understanding Headspace (Gunsmithing Student Handbook Series)

it's only fifteen bucks

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

now what would a case sitting in a stripped die tell me about how a case would fit in a chamber? I have to lube a die and apply a great deal of force to a case to get it into a die. The case will fall in and out into my chamber until I fire it and the brass expands.

Like wise the head of a case forced into a bolt with no support for the body of the case from the cahmber walls shows nothing as far as how that case sits in a closed chamber. This is just nonsensical noise in my opinion.]

It'll easily go in and out out of a bullet seating die as I suggested. It's much like a barrel chamber.

It'll easily go into a bolt head and you'll feel the in line ejector and firing pin pushing it off the bolt face. And how the extractor positions the case head.

[Metal god]

It'll easily go into a bolt head and you'll feel the in line ejector and firing pin pushing it off the bolt face. And how the extractor positions the case head.

Yes but that's when another force is being applied to the case ie ejector or firing pin . If the firing pin is cocked and there is no ejector . What force does the extractor put on the case when chambered . I ask because you wrote

Originally Posted by You

but the extractor pushing sideways on the case will definitely push the case head off center.

which I replied

Originally Posted by Me

It's interesting you say that . I've always assumed the extractor was cut/milled in a way that they fit into the extractor grove and once they snapped over the rim they no longer put any pressure/force on the case . They only made contact when they were pulling the case out or if you had major head clearance and they stopped the case from moving fully forward when fired or chambering . Kinda like shooting a 40 S&W in a 10mm chamber ?

[hounddawg]

It'll easily go in and out out of a bullet seating die as I suggested. It's much like a barrel chamber.

It'll easily go into a bolt head and you'll feel the in line ejector and firing pin pushing it off the bolt face. And how the extractor positions the case head.

it would tell me nothing about how the case sits in the chamber that would matter. You're grasping at straws now

[Bart B.]

Metal god,

I mentioned back in post #132 the extractor pushing sideways on the case moves it. The case rim stops against the bolt head shroud holding it there until some other force pushes the case out of the bolt head.

With a Mauser style bolt and extractor, the case stays in the bolt head until the ejector slides into a slot in the bolt head behind the case head. The last fraction of an inch the bolt is pulled back is when the ejector pushes the case off the bolt head tipping it sideways pivoting on the extractor claw.

Remove the bolt from a rifle then put a primed case head into it. Notice what forces hold it there or push it out before and after the firing pin is slowly put against it.

[hounddawg]

Remove the bolt from a rifle then put a primed case head into it. Notice what forces hold it there or push it out before and after the firing pin is slowly put against it.

and that has exactly what to do with reloading? Whatever forces are applied is baked into the cake. Since there is nothing we can do about it except remove the extractor and ejector so why even bother to spend time dwelling on it

That is just distraction and noise

[F. Guffey]

You're grasping at straws now

He knows more now than when he started; he is the one that started that cute little saying about the firing pin driving the case forward into the shoulder of the case collided with the shoulder of the chamber. In the beginning he did not know the case did not have head space, and now? He will not admit it.

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

In the beginning he did not know the case did not have head space, and now

sort of like you refusing to admit that Forster knows more about case geometry than you do

Sizes the case neck and shoulder to set headspace and deprimes

https://www.forsterproducts.com/prod...t-sizing-dies/

maybe you need to invest a few dollars in that student guide to headspacing book also

[cw308]

In chambering a round in the chamber , if it was made out of plexi you could see what's happening , but it's not so we have to rely on how we measure things and our imagination on what's going on . Does side pressure really matter when in a split second when the fired case is slammed forward in the chamber , I would think if the shoulder of the case is true to the shoulder in the chamber and the bullet is centered to the barrel is all that matters . From there you could change neck tension , powder charge and seating depth to improve things , all the other stuff happens after the bullet is going down the barrel.

[F. Guffey]

Does side pressure really matter when in a split second when the fired case is slammed forward in the chamber

I could suggest you think about it, that does not work because you insist on repeating what you read and or heard on the Internet.

Think about it: I am not involved in a popularity contest. I only have one interest; I want you to think, I do not want to be your friend. I have given you 3 examples of cases in chambers that never took off for the front of the chamber. None of the examples had firing pins that drove the case forward.

If I could provoke you into thinking I would ask your to explain why the case got longer from the shoulder of the case to the case head and shorter from the shoulder/neck juncture to the end of the neck.

If you had thinking skills you would understand why driving the case forward to the shoulder of the chamber is a bad habit.

F. Guffey