Close Quarters Reaction Drill

[MTT TL]

We had an animated discussion at work the other day. Thought I would check the interweb for varying opinions.

Let us assume strong side carry of a large hand gun.

You get physically engaged from the front physically in hand to hand in an attempt to subdue and then abduct you for nefarious purposes. Essentially one or more people are trying to assault and then grab you and take you somewhere. The assumption is that you will likely end up dead and therefore deadly force is legally allowed. I realize that this might not be the case everywhere for everyone but for our situation it is a very valid assumption. (just to be clear I will ignore any posts that want to discuss the legality of this as it is a settled question for us)

Our discussion was should you:
- Draw your weapon and fire from the waist one handed, cowboy style
- Throw your weak side hand up and push back in an attempt to create distance before drawing, then fire from the waist
- Attempt to create space and then bring your weapon all the way up to a good firing position

The concern was if you throw your hand forward and fire one or more shots you stand a chance of blowing your hand off.

Some figured if you were able to create distance than you might be able to create enough space to get both hands up to the weapon and a good firing position but this seemed time consuming and risky.

We reached a consensus and trained that way but I was curious about other techniques and ideas as well as critiques of the given techniques.

[Tucker 1371]

I'm pretty sure that in almost any state that allows CCW you would be within your legal right to use deadly force as a means of extricating yourself from the situation you described.

I would do a quick shove off, bringing the shoving hand (non firing hand) back as I raised the weapon. It's shoot and move from there. Having multiple assailants at extremely short range would probably require you to stay mobile so as to maintain stand off.

If the shove doesn't create the required distance then you would probably need to quickly transition to firing from the hip, then shoving off, moving away, and assuming a conventional grip on your weapon after your attacker has swallowed a few lead pills, searching for the next threat as you do this.

I am no expert, to be sure. Others with more knowledge and experience will probably come along shortly with better advice. Going over the scenario in my head this is what I came up with.

[Scattergun Bob]

Be clear here, is it one or more?

[MTT TL]

For our purposes we were assuming more than one, however we did not specify how many. However we also assumed that the first one could be handled individually from the front.

Likely a poor assumption I know. Part of this was constrained because we do not have live fire facilities that allow us to fire in greater than a 30 degree declination. I think a safer bet is that if you had multiple assailants trying to grab you that they would come from multiple directions.

[Hoskins]

I would shove off & draw at the same time. In Military Police School we were taught that when the weapon clears the holster, immediately snap it up, next to your hip (cowboy style)...pointing the buisness end toward the bad guy in the event that you need to take an immediate shot.

Quick bio for credability reasons. I am a US Marine that has been in for 14 years now. I started off as a Infantry Machinegunner for my first four years & then moved into the Military Police field where I have only served in the battle field MP units. I was trained in law enforcement & can go to a base law enforcement unit at anytime (well, when I've served another 2 months in my current unit.). The info above was just to say that I'm not some Cop movie buff, have watched too many Law & Order or Magnum PI shows, or some video game addict that thinks that since I can shoot em up on the video game that I'm some super gun guru.

If the bad guy is right up on you I feel that he's way too close, can react faster to you drawing your weapon, be well within reach of your weapon & holster, & then it may get into a wrestling match over control of your weapon.

If you are close enough to shove then you are close enough to hit the target from a hip fire shot. After taking that shot on bad guy #1, I would pivot in whatever direction that I have to in order to be facing bad guy #2 or #3. If there is more than two BG's then you pivot toward the next closest threat. at this time you should be at full draw & that should have happened immediately after firing the hip shot.

In my opinion, mobility is crucial. Continue maneuvering in order to gain the initative. Speed, intensity, & violence of action...coupled with mobility will give you a greater chance of survival.

Alot of folks can what if this to death, but this is what immediately clicked into my head when I read your post. Hopefully, after the first shot, even if you somehow missed, it will make the BG's loose all control over thier bowels & send them running to the 1st bathroom to clean thier undies!...hopefully.

Hope this helps as another way to skin the cat.

[Any .45]

So I have some questions for your scenario.

1. Are they armed with guns, knives, Bos, etc.
2. Are you armed with a knife or other CQC weapon beside your handgun?
3. Are they all on top of you or is it just the one and then the others approaching?

A little background information of myself. I've been a student of Aikido and Budo in general since I was about 9 years old off and on as time allowed but always kept self training. I have trained with all types of martialists (Martial artists) of all types of ways (arts) and have done the scenario you speak of live in full contact multiple times and can honestly say if they are all on top of you it will not be easy to get out of, much less draw a gun without some type of ramification, especially if one decides to pick you up by you feet or if they are armed. In the past I have personally trained many men and women in the way of Aikido and the multiple attacker scenario is one that we all like to train for and women especially like to train for, so trusts me when I tell you somethings work sometimes.

I am no longer in the area where I use to train, but before I left me and a few of the guys at the Dojo are avid gun shooters and would mix Martial arts with Gun arts and invent possible scenarios. For your situation, if all I have with me is a gun, normally I carry a gun, knife and as of late thanks to a buddy of mine a Benchmade pen. So as I was, if all I had was a gun strong side, the simplest thing to do without extensive martial training is instead of shoving him, open your hand and drive it into and up his chin and drive it backwards in the direction of the others if possible. As you intensely drive his head and body backwards (Where the head goes the body goes) draw your pistol using him for cover and shoot him twice and now address the other threats. keep as much distance as you can from the others until they are also rendered harmless. Did I mention while you are doing this scream in anger like a roar (let out you Chi), contrary to belief, screaming in a situation like this causes confusion in the attackers it might make them pause and think for second which is an extra second you didnt have before.

[pax]

If you shoot yourself in a gunfight, it still counts.

pax

[Hoskins]

If you shoot yourself in a gunfight, it still counts.

LMAO!!! +1

[Skans]

If one attacker was pointing a handgun at me close range, I could more quickly take his gun and use it against him than I could draw my own from concealment. I've practiced this with others and it was very revealing. If there were multiple people holding me at gunpoint, then that's a different story.

The real question is: how fast can you draw your weapon from concealment to eliminate a: 1) one man threat up close; 2) one man threat a few feet away; 3) multiple armed attackers? I would submit that you cannot draw your weapon fast enough if someone is sticking a pistol 2 inches from your chest as you approach an ATM machine.

I would think you need to absolutely know the answer to this question first, before assessing what you would do.

[MTT TL]

1. Are they armed with guns, knives, Bos, etc.

For our purposes we assume that they may be armed with long guns, but not intent on using them to shoot us with as the goal is to capture alive.

2. Are you armed with a knife or other CQC weapon beside your handgun?

Some of us carry switch blade knives, but not all. For most this is a strong side /forward carry. I carry mine weak side. However only a few of us are trained in knife fighting (not me). However all of us have at least some MMA.

3. Are they all on top of you or is it just the one and then the others approaching?

We were assuming others approaching.

So as I was, if all I had was a gun strong side, the simplest thing to do without extensive martial training is instead of shoving him, open your hand and drive it into and up his chin and drive it backwards in the direction of the others if possible. As you intensely drive his head and body backwards (Where the head goes the body goes) draw your pistol using him for cover and shoot him twice and now address the other threats. keep as much distance as you can from the others until they are also rendered harmless.

Are you saying shoot from the hip or shoot from the full draw high?

If you shoot yourself in a gunfight, it still counts.

Not only that but you lose ALL cool guy points.

That is a good post Hoskins. I am curious how do you keep from shooting your hand accidentally?

[MLeake]

How I'd deal with the lead guy would vary with his position, movement, etc. Others have already noted potential physical tactics to disrupt the initial attack and attempt to draw and engage, so I'll address another idea:

Regardless of what they are armed with, it is NEVER good to be in the center. (Of course, if they shoot themselves in the crossfire, it could be comical in a morbid sort of way, but odds are they shot through you to do it... so no real tactical gain there for you.)

Try to move to the outside of the circle (polygon, etc) immediately, and get the attackers to line up and foul each others lines of sight / lanes of attack. Minimize the number who can attack you at any given point.

As Any.45 noted, this type of drill is pretty commonly practiced in aikido. Of course, those attackers are using hands, feet, and/or training weapons such as shinai, as opposed to guns. Even so, one very quickly learns that staying in the middle, or moving into the middle, and exposing oneself to multiple angles of attack = pain.

Firearms would amplify that pain, or else render it moot rather quickly.

Point remains, move to (relative) safety, aggressively. Ideally, cause them to harm each other.

[Edward429451]

This is an old Rick Miller drill. I used to practice it but haven't in awhile. According to the drill, you push off with your weak hand while drawing and falling to your back while shooting. I had to be very careful to pull my weak hand back before firing but in your scenario, I might have to take one in the hand which wouldn't be nice, but maybe preferable to going to another location with the scum. I don't think I'd want to be on the ground with multiple attackers though. If it were one attacker only.

[MK11]

There is a growing segment of the training community dedicated to extremely close quarters shooting. A trainer called "South Narc" seems to be one of the acknowledged leaders in this area. His site is www.shivworks.com. Gabe Suarez and Tactical Response offer training in this as well.

[old bear]

If possible, Push, Fire, retreat. Or move in close and go for a direct contact shot, keeping in mind that if you can't reach your weapon you can bite off an nose or ear.

[demigod]

Push off with support hand and "speed rock" a few rounds into whomever is attacking you. Then create your distance and shoot with sights if necessary.

[howwie]

I'm pretty sure this is a roundhouse kick scenario. No jk, I think I'm with those that suggest shove off then firing cowboy style, followed by retreat/aimed shooting etc. Of course a million things could happen, but a shove while drawing could throw you off balance without practice. I would probably try for a press contact shot if my attacker and I were in elbowing range when the shove happens. that way I wouldn't (hopefully) shoot myself. And by shove I'm thinking a full on shoulder push not an outstretched arm push (I'm too skinny to move people that way)

[TimberWolf7.62]

Left jab into the face and use the right hand to shoot 'em in the groin. That keeps the hand away from the bullet. Then left hand comes back to join the right on the weapon for follow up shots.

For multiple attackers, in Marine Corps bayonet training, we're taught to move laterally to put one attacker in front of another so that you're dealing with one guy (with the 2nd behind him) rather than two guys at once. Here's a situation for a deeply penetrating round!

[g.willikers]

If no one else has mentioned it, there's quite a few interesting videos on the subject on youtube.
Here's some that I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH6x2Ntc

[pax]

Deleted a funny but off topic post. Guys, here's the deal: this forum exists for serious questions & reasonable answers to same. It's not here as a playground, it's not here for macho crap, and it's not here to make gun owners look like idiot hillbillies.

pax

[kgpcr]

What are the chances of this happening? about zero but ok if it happens to me i am shooting. All i have to do it hit him in the pelvis and he is out of the fight so i dont even need to bring my weapon all the way up. again what are the chances?

[Teuthis]

At times it might be better to make as litle contact as possible with an aggressor. Step back if you must, but do not put yourself in the position that someone can grab you and hold you. It is difficult to actually know what you would do in a situation, because of the variables. My own idea is to not make contact or break contact and try to draw and fire.

On the other hand, why would you not get your gun out immediately, or even before contact is made? If you have a gun, avoid contact and get it up and perhaps you can forestall the attack.

[Scattergun Bob]

Some of us carry switch blade knives, but not all. For most this is a strong side /forward carry. I carry mine weak side. However only a few of us are trained in knife fighting (not me). However all of us have at least some MMA.

This seems to indicate that there are more than one of you. Since the original post indicated One of you, which is it?

There are lose/lose nightmare circumstances that occur, multiple adversaries with long guns entering the the combat area at intervals is one of mine. Is there cover that you can disengage from the immediate threat and seek out?
Is there time to do so?

Good Luck, sounds like you will need it!

[MTT TL]

This seems to indicate that there are more than one of you. Since the original post indicated One of you, which is it?

We are a team, in the ME. However due to unusual circumstances of the day we are often separated and meeting local nationals alone. The concern is someone will try to grab one of us while we are alone. The PR payoff of having one of us alive on the TV to display would of course be high.

On the other hand, why would you not get your gun out immediately, or even before contact is made? If you have a gun, avoid contact and get it up and perhaps you can forestall the attack.

Ideally you would. But based on the situation we are talking about we are thinking someone we thought was otherwise friendly turns out not to be.

[MTT TL]

We are a team, in the ME. However due to unusual circumstances of the day we are often separated and meeting local nationals alone. The concern is someone will try to grab one of us while we are alone. The PR payoff of having one of us alive on the TV to display would of course be high.

It occurred to me that sounded very "mall ninja". I will assure you that we are not special operators or in charge of security for one of America's largest retail centers.

[Scattergun Bob]

I think others have answered your question. I don't think I can be of any value to you.

Good Luck & Be Safe