Opinion or fact?

[JimL]

I was reading a training article by someone declared to be famous and experienced (30 + years) as an LE and trainer. He impressed me by saying early on that real world gun fights had almost nothing in common with competitive shooting. (You do, of course, point and shoot in both.)

As I went along I picked up on a note or two that didn't seem to go as expected. First I read that it was essential to make sure you are using the Weaver stance in a gun fight. Never keep both arms the same length during a fight. OK, I'll write that down and carry it in my pocket for reference.

Always stay away from corners. A corner is anything with a blind spot. Anything you can't see through.

Wait a second, by that definition isn't any cover a corner?

Then: Stand still. You can't shoot straight while dancing around! Don't dance around.

Hmmm. I'm curious. 30 years or 130 years? How we doing so far?

[Dwight55]

There are exceptions out there, . . . but you have to remember that these guys teaching tactics, . . . self protection, . . . gunfighting, . . . etc. are all, . . . each and every one, . . . doing this for one of two reasons: money or ego, . . . and for most of them it is a combination of both.

This is not meant to be derogatory, . . . but they have to make their product either different or better than everybody else's product, . . . so you get different "opinions" of what is "good", . . . what is "better", . . . and what is "best".

Take what is said with a grain of salt, . . . and maybe more when you get things throwed at you like "Always", "Never", "Best", "Worst", . . . etc.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Teuthis]

Agree. Get cover so you won't be shot. If you are alone, a corner can be a blind spot. You need a field of fire. If you move when you do not have to, you give up your cover and make yourself a target. Usually, whoever gets to cover first has the best chance of surviving. Shooting sports hone one's skills but they are not realistic for tactics and survival.

[JimL]

It depends o the training that he or she took to make there skills good.

I'm not sure this is about training. Perhaps you think I'm anti-Weaver, but that is totally beside the point. Down and dirty time is debate time? Should I use weaver or isosceles if I need to shoot over my shoulder? The article was about getting on with a real fight not the range or classroom.

Is fight time the time to check the angle of your elbows? You should have figured that out long ago.

Isn't cover (corner) a good thing? You should have learned to negotiate a corner long ago.

Isn't it best to know how to shoot if you DO _have to_ move? (Dance around? How cutesy!)

A 30 year veteran telling you you must watch your elbows and not the threat? Never hide behind something and never move?

I just don't find credibility in that kind of talk.

[kraigwy]

He impressed me by saying early on that real world gun fights had almost nothing in common with competitive shooting.

In the real world gun fights people miss because they don't have the fundamentals embedded in their brain.

Competitive shooting is all about fundamentals, you have to have them, you have to practice them, you have to embed them in your brain.

Both competitive and tactical (for lack of a better word) requires marksmanship fundamentals.

In combat, you don't think about fundamentals, you are scared poo less and are only concerned with survival.

However, if you have the fundamental in grained in you subconscious, its gonna kick in whether you know it or not. You always revert to your training, if you don't have the training, or don't practice, then you miss. If you've developed good habits of marksmanship fundamentals then your habits, and training, and practice are gonna kick it. Habits come from practice.

So I would say he's totally wrong, Completive shooting and Tactical shooting are the same. Habits kick in during both......IF YOU DEVELOP THOSE HABITS.

As for his ideal of Weaver stance etc, I can only comment that no two people are the same, what works for one may or may not work for another.

A good coach or trainer will work the position (if you will) to the shooter, not the other way around. To say one size fits all is one of the first things that would cause me to walk out of a training session.

Lets move back to competition for an example. Sitting Rapid Fire has three basic positions. No one is better then the other, some people can't set cross legged so you have them cross ankle, some people cant set cross ankle or cross legged, so you have the open leg position. Some people cant do either so you combine two or three types for a position that works for the shooter. The same goes with shooting the pistol. You can't say one position is better then another, you have to find what fits the shooter. Comfort in any position makes for better shooting.

Now a lot of people are down on Completive shooting such as bullseye. One handed shooting. Think about it, how about you are getting in a car and only have one hand available, what if you are pushing your wife or child away and only have one hand on the pistol/revolver. THINK A BIT. There are probably more scenarios where you would be shooting with one hand then you think.

If you don't think competitive shooting is fast enough try ISU Rapid Fire Pistol. You have 5 targets. you start with the pistol pointed 45 degrees down. The first stage is firing at 5 targets at 25 yards in 7 seconds, then the same in 5 seconds, then in 3, and I'm not talking about hitting a man size target, but you need a small circle in the target, you need to stay in the ten - X ring to win.

I will end this by adding my favorite quote to those who condemn completive shooting.

"Many practical users of pistols and revolvers are fond of making fun of target shooting, and of the advice given on how to learn this branch of the sport. Such an attitude is well understood by the psychologist. It is founded in the unconscious jealousy and feeling of inferiority that the poor shot feels when he sees a well trained marksman making scores out of his power to equal. Unconsciously he try to belittle that accomplishment that he does not possess, so that he will seem to his audience to be just as important and well equipped as the good marksman whom he ridicules." MG Jullan S. Hatcher TEXTBOOK OF PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS.

[Scattergun Bob]

One of the basic paradigms of training is ; "no training officer will be there to bail you butt out of a bad situation that HIS training method instigated." Only you will be able to extract your ass out of harms way. This requires you to "personally" prove that every training technique works for YOU and not rely on word of mouth accolades to save your life.

Good Luck & Be Safe

[mete]

Weaver ? Nonsense. Use what works for you. I tried both and found I was faster and more accurate with isosoles .Then I injured my elbow permanently so I use something half way in between !!
Approaching the corner of a building close to it is bad .
The late Jim Cirillo went through an IPSC match as he would act in the real world .Others laughed at him !! He had shootouts with 17 BGs as a NYC cop many in the Stakeout Squad ! He won them all !
Would you follow Cirillo's advice or the 'gamers' ???

[ZeSpectre]

Well, I've never been in (and am strongly hoping I never am in) a gunfight. However I have witnessed a couple of things that make me think "hrmmmm".

In watching paintball tournaments the people that get locked into one position and don't move at least a little bit get destroyed.

Hunting rats as a kid, the rats that froze and didn't move eventually died whereas the ones that moved and dodged and jumped occasionally got away (not always, but sometimes).

That tells me just about all I need to know on movement.

[Don P]

Just like your title of this thread all replies will be opinion. Competition shooting forces you to use cover (IDPA) and from doing so as you compete you learn form others as well as your own actions how to and how not to use cover. In my opinion its a good way to learn to use cover WITHOUT anyone shooting back and make all the mistakes while competing and hopefully if the day comes you will use what is learned. Just my 2 cents worth

[Skans]

that real world gun fights had almost nothing in common with competitive shooting.

Doesn't this sort of imply that in order to become proficient at "real world gun fights" we all need to go out and get into some real gun fights to sharpen our skills?

[taylor351]

Real world gunfights could include paintball. Movement and tactics against someone who is trying to eliminate you would reinforce what works and what does'nt.
I always though it was funny in the military training when some one wearing the MILES system would hide behind a bush and think that would stop a bullet. Bad training results in bad habits.

Keith

[PoorSoulInJersey]

The biggest difference between competition and real defense situations is that no one is threatening your life in competition. That's probably going to make you WAY more nervous.

The more you've practiced, the better off you will be.

The "avoid corners", I read to mean you should not approach corners closely. Stand back and work your way around from further away (don't walk along the wall).

The "perfect weaver stance" may not happen if you have one hand partially blocking a punch as you are off balance and trying to draw. That's why I practice fundamentals like trigger control from every stance I can think of. I want my arms and hands and fingers to know what to do even if my legs and body are not in perfect stance.

[Double Naught Spy]

I was reading a training article by someone declared to be famous and experienced (30 + years) as an LE and trainer. He impressed me by saying early on that real world gun fights had almost nothing in common with competitive shooting. (You do, of course, point and shoot in both.)

Well, nothing outside of the real world of gun fighting is real world gun fighting. That should not be confused wiith the notion that competition and training are not beneficial.

Weaver ? Nonsense. Use what works for you. I tried both and found I was faster and more accurate with isosoles .Then I injured my elbow permanently so I use something half way in between !!

Right, I often use different stances depending on the position I am in. No one method works well for every situation. I would argue that a two handle grip is a more stable platform than one handed, but that doesn't mean that a one handed grip should not be used. There are all sorts of reasons to be shooting one handed even if it isn't the stereotypical ideal of a two handed grip.

As was explained to me, you have your smart weak hand and your dumb strong hand. The dumb hand is the dominant hand and the one that you use to fire your gun. It is the dumb hand because it has the narrowest range of job responsibilities. Its job is to hold and shoot the gun.

The smart hand is your "weak" hand. It is the smart hand because it does everything else and including shooting a gun when the dumb hand can't. It supports the strong, dumb hand for two handed grips. It opens doors, puts pressure on wounds, drags injured parties, fends off blows, gives hand signals, reloads the gun held by the dumb hand, clears malfunctions, dials 911, etc.

So the smart, weak hand may be doing all sorts of tasks while the strong hand is firing a gun.

[Kmar40]

I was reading a training article by someone declared to be famous and experienced (30 + years) as an LE and trainer. He impressed me by saying early on that real world gun fights had almost nothing in common with competitive shooting. (You do, of course, point and shoot in both.)

Well, my opinion is he's an idiot. Stand still and use the Weaver sounds like he's from the 1960s. (I'm not opposed to weaver, it's just not THE WAY and is demonstrably harder to perform under stress--as are all fine motor movements-- than the iso.)

Yes, things aren't like shooting at paper. That's easily proven every time you start shooting back at those guys who are so good at competitive shooting. For that matter just making these competitive shoots jog a few second to get their heart rates up spoils their ability.

[JimL]

So I would say he's totally wrong, Completive shooting and Tactical shooting are the same. Habits kick in during both......IF YOU DEVELOP THOSE HABITS.

Perhaps IDPA comes as close as any competition to fighting, but in competition you know what's coming, if not exactly, at least in general. You NEVER get a script for a real gunfight.

Scene 3: BG pops up on your right from behind a rock 10.5 meters away and remains visible for 13 seconds!

Another way of saying it is, in competition you play by written rules. In that respect, competition is never like a real gunfight.

You say you'll do what you are in the habit of doing and that is very true. But does that mean that if you have never competed you can never win a gunfight? Of course not. I don't think it is possible to say training and competition are one and the same. And competitive shooting vs real gun fighting is _the subject_ as shown in the OP.

[JimL]

Once again, the subject is competition (for a plastic gizmo often covered with something somewhat resembling gold) vs real fighting. Neither I nor the guy I paraphrased came even remotely close to saying you should never practice on targets.

That's too far out for words.

[JimL]

One of the basic paradigms of training is ;

Kindly point out in which post I said one should not train or practice.

I agreed that _competition_ is unlike real fighting - thread message number one.

How is anyone getting the idea that I'm against training????

If I were to frame it in terms of being against something I'd put it this way. "I'm against assuming that a real gun battle will go just like your last run through an IDPA or bulls eye competition." Is that all that esoteric?

[JimL]

nothing outside of the real world of gun fighting is real world gun fighting. That should not be confused wiith the notion that competition and training are not beneficial.

Exactly. Just as my saying competition is not a gunfight should not be confused with saying "that competition and training are not beneficial."

[JimL]

So the smart, weak hand may be doing all sorts of tasks while the strong hand is firing a gun.

So where do you put the dunce hat?

[JimL]

The "avoid corners", I read to mean you should not approach corners closely.

And may I ask, what do you read it to mean when he says never "dance around?"

Seems Yul Brenner did something like that in some movie about Siam....

[warningshot]

where LE lived to tell the rest of us what happened. The good trainers listen...and control or adjust the training program according to the reality of the street.

The other trainers make up and then sell you on their own program, or they listen to those good trainers whom know better.

[JimL]

The other trainers make up and then sell you on their own program, or they listen to those good trainers whom know better.

It kind of makes you wonder if you should read _any_ gun magazine.

There is actually one writer I read who _always_ makes sense to me. He writes very well (would get great grades in a technical writing class test) and includes more detail and explanations of underlying reasons for things.

But is that a good criterion to go by?

BTW, he taught me to grip a handgun tighter and more consistently. (Some, maybe many of you will recognize who I am talking about.)

[Scattergun Bob]

No offence, I am having a hard time following your points, must be my old age and too much wild turkey.

Kindly point out in which post I said one should not train or practice.

I made no such reference. In simple terms what I was suggesting is "if it doesn't work for you, then throw it away, and keep looking for something that will."

[JimL]

I am having a hard time following your points,

There probably is no point. I just got irked when he declared genuine gun fighting was different from competition and proposed to put it right - then lapsed into babble.

[animal]

and here I was thinkin’ it might be middle-age and Makers Mark.

A +1 to find what works for you.

I can see merit to using cover and movement as well as maintaining a stable platform and full view of surroundings. Depends a lot on what you’re facing, and what you’re comfy with, imo.