September 6, 2017, 01:13 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 24, 2006
Posts: 1,900
|
No answer...
I see posts on gun forums asking what is the maximum range for this rifle...or this caliber...or this scope. I don't see how such questions can be answered. At my age with my bad eyes 100 yards is really pushing it for hitting a paper target at all let alone making a group. A younger man with more skill might take the same gun and shoot at 300 yards effectively.
Too many variables to answer that question. But I will say this...one time I was shooting out in the desert until the sun went down and the moon rose. My last shot that day was with a 375 H&H Mauser and I shot at the moon. Pretty sure I hit it... |
September 6, 2017, 03:49 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 4,556
|
Most of those questions are "answerable".
Depending on applications, maximum effective range, energy, etc. can be calculated. Whether or not the shooter has the skill and the hardware for it is a different matter. Some may be a bit more nebulous than others, but the data is there...
__________________
Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com |
September 6, 2017, 03:59 PM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
Quote:
|
|
September 6, 2017, 04:16 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 2,475
|
The shooter and his equipment are variables where assumptions are used.
Assuming you are using X mfg ammo, with X bullet, shot from X rifle, with X length barrel, giving X muzzle velocity, and the shooter is "capable", then the result is Y" Some have a few of the data points, other data points have to be assumed with given data available or a swag...
__________________
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, 1776 |
September 6, 2017, 05:14 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 24, 2006
Posts: 1,900
|
OK, so shooter X is a 7 out of 10 in skill level, using a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 with 180 grain factory ammo and a 4x scope..what is his maximum range?
|
September 6, 2017, 06:02 PM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
Quote:
|
|
September 6, 2017, 06:03 PM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,754
|
Quote:
I limit shots at deer sized game which is all I hunt anymore to 300 yards. And that would be the exception. I much prefer closer shots and will do all I can to arrange them. |
|
September 6, 2017, 09:37 PM | #8 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,858
|
Quote:
Everything else is a matter of the shooter's skill. Range can be measured these days, yay technology! In the old days, it was a matter of the shooter's skill in correctly estimating the range. Drop is a constant, and can be accurately calculated, given the range. Wind drift, on the other hand is a guess. Not the amount of drift per mph, that's a calculation, but wind direction and speed between you and the target. When the target is distant, wind can be in multiple directions and speeds between you and it. If you can estimate or calculate all that correctly, you will hit. No matter the range.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
|
September 6, 2017, 10:03 PM | #9 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
Actually, it is still difficult to come out with any precise range figures. Things work out fine on paper, but few paper shooters actually fire their guns at long distances. Experiments on smooth beaches by Hatcher and others, and similar recent attempts at the same type of work indicate too many variables to provide real answers.* Note that maximum range can only be determined by where a spent bullet actually hits the ground. No matter that a series of shots may produce a tight group on target at a measured distance, the actual bullet strikes may be far apart at maximum range.
Jim *Anyone looking for a deserted beach in Florida in 2017 might have a problem finding one, except maybe when Irma hits, and finding the bullet holes in a hurricane might be difficult. But computers and calculations don't give the "correct" answers. JK |
September 7, 2017, 10:22 AM | #10 |
Staff in Memoriam
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 24,798
|
From what I've read through my Internet years, this is the sort of question asked by those who are relatively new to shooting. A common problem is the overly-simple phrasing often used.
Similar to "What is the best...?" |
September 7, 2017, 11:15 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,868
|
Well is he shooting at ground squirrel of Mastodon's? Size of the target makes a big difference. Ya need an aiming point. 4X for myself would cit it very well if deer or larger is the target out to 250yds.
|
September 7, 2017, 12:18 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
|
"...That's from "Saving Private Ryan"..." Fiction doesn't count. You can't take a scope off and return it without losing zero either. Especially with an '03A4. Windage was adjusted with the wee screws on the base.
Scopes do not have any range. Max or otherwise. Neither do rifles. Cartridges do, but the rifle matters. Most hunting cartridges have an effective range of about 300 yards before the bullet drops excessively. General Hatcher covers this in his Notebook. He used an empty Florida beach too, as I recall. Used MG's though. And nothing to do with actually hitting anything but the beach.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count! |
September 7, 2017, 12:46 PM | #13 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,754
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
September 7, 2017, 08:34 PM | #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,809
|
Precise answers aren't possible. But rough guidelines are.
With rifle calibers the best measure I've found is terminal velocity. With hunting bullets as long as the bullet has sufficient velocity at impact to give good expansion it will kill game. Assuming there is enough bullet mass to also get adequate penetration. Energy numbers are part of this, but I've found impact velocity more accurate. As a target shooter as long as the bullet is supersonic accuracy is usually good enough if the shooter is good enough. There are lots of ways to calculate down range velocity with a fair degree of accuracy. The effective range of scopes is more difficult. But for big game purposes 1X for each 100 yards is a pretty fair guideline. A decent rifleman should be able to make hits on big game out to 400 yards with a 4X scope. Of course not everyone has the same skills and smaller varmints need more magnification. The effective range of the shooter is even harder. The maximum range a shooter can keep 10 shots out of 10 inside the vital zone of the game hunted is his maximum range. Not all game has the same size kill zone. Some animals may require a 9" target, others a 24" target. Some shooters can do that at 1000 yards, others only 50 yards. Quote:
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill |
|
September 7, 2017, 11:46 PM | #15 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,858
|
A bullet doesn't have to expand to kill game. All it has to do is penetrate enough in the right place. It also doesn't have to be supersonic to be accurate.
Think .45-70... and remember that over a century ago, people were shooting 1,000 yard matches with iron sights and .45-70 blackpowder cartridges... Yes, flatter shooting rounds and sufficient velocity for expansion are more efficient, but that doesn't mean less efficient rounds won't work, it means the shooter has to work harder..
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
September 9, 2017, 06:35 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,289
|
Without arguing with Steven Spielburg,I believe the US Army designated "maximum effective range" of a 1903A4 at 600yds.
And for most of us,the idea of taking off the Weaver 330 and swapping in an 8x Lyman while retaining zero is ......well,we eyeroll and say "Hollywood!" That does not mean a good shooter or a lucky shooter cannot make a shot at 1200 yds,or whatever. Its more what a Commander can plan on when deploying the weapon. Usually these questions lack "For what purpose?" information. |
September 12, 2017, 04:32 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 29, 2013
Location: North Central Pennsyltucky
Posts: 749
|
Go back and read the first post again....OP answered "no answer", when in fact he provided an answer to his specific situation. Reading this thread and thinking of my own limitations, at age 65, I've done the same thing: lighter calibers & lighter rifles, scopes/sights that permit me to focus through sight range and still see the target. Oh, and going where I'm physically able.
Whee did age 65 come from? I still feel 21, but there are many more things aching and aching longer. |
September 13, 2017, 08:48 AM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
Quote:
There you have your answer. If you want to shoot mountain goat your rifle has needs, Carolina deer need entirely different rifles. That is how you judge a rifle. No other points to make. everything else is a question of skill. Without the necessary skill set, deciding what range your rifle is capable of working at is useless.
__________________
None. |
|
September 13, 2017, 09:47 AM | #19 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
|
Surprised this thread doesn't have tons of pictures of your beautiful rifles!
|
September 13, 2017, 11:02 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
|
Funny, my best rifle is just a 700 in .243 with nice wood.
__________________
None. |
September 13, 2017, 02:43 PM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 22, 2017
Posts: 1,011
|
Quote:
If you've seen an AR, you know what mine look like. Seen an M-1 Carbine? Well, then you know what my 5.7mm Johnson carbine looks like, too. You get the idea. It's all utilitarian stuff that everyone has seen a million times before. Even the gun that fires a wildcat cartridge (the 5.7mm Johnson) is an example of banality. |
|
September 13, 2017, 03:44 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,695
|
I was at the range last week and, after posting some 200 yard, 1" groups, using Bonded BT, 140 grain, moose handloads in my .270 Win, customized Rem 700 CDL stainless fluted, I stood up and hit the 12" 200 meter gong, 4 out of 5 times offhand, no sling.
It was quite pleasing, since I'm 73 years old and haven't shot offhand much this year. |
September 14, 2017, 02:21 PM | #23 |
Member
Join Date: May 16, 2017
Posts: 47
|
It is hard to say but there are some videos online of people shooting various calibers at very long distance and the rounds in question are shown easily going through a large plywood board. Does that mean they'd kill you or game? Well we do have minimum energy calculators for hunting that aren't new. And of course there are cases of stray rounds at outdoor ranges with no topside barriers having actually killed people at quite a long distance.
So maybe it is more apt to say that we know a given round *can* make a hit to at least a given range. |
September 14, 2017, 04:14 PM | #24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 7, 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,000
|
Quote:
and why should we work harder and give the animals less margin? especially when it comes to a kill? don't we have an obligation to give them a quick clean death? anything could kill with perfect shotplacement but it is much much better to have a expanding bullet when it is not perfect especially if you only wound the game, more blood to track |
|
September 14, 2017, 08:18 PM | #25 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,248
|
Quote:
Quote:
If your rifle/ammunition combination can keep all your shots within say 2 MOA, you could hit a deer-sized target out to 500 yds (whether you are capable of shooting that well or not). But beyond 300 yds, trajectory starts to become an issue, and people miss even though the rifle put the bullet where it was aimed. The shooter can be trained, the rifle shoots how it shoots (which is typically better than many shooters). I have seen shooters with sub-MOA rifles flub 100 yds shots on standing animals, but that's not the rifle's fault. Scopes do not alter the maximum effective range of the rifle, they are a device to aid the shooter. I shot thousands of rounds of ammo across-the-course with iron sights. Did fairly well, if I say so myself. Nowadays, my vision is nowhere near what it was 40 years ago, so I use a scope. The rifle doesn't need a scope, I need a scope. So, a long-winded way to agree with SP, there is no answer to the question of "what's my rifle's/cartridge's/scope's maximum range?" If it is a modern cartridge with a fair quality barrel and a good scope on it, most shooters could expect to be able to hit a game animal sized target at 200 yds. Beyond that, it gets complicated.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services |
||
|
|