Help ID this german revolver

gunner85 · November 5, 2008, 06:54 PM

My father inherited this from his dad. We really don't have much info on it other than it has a hair trigger and is single action, and are wondering if you guys can help us out. Here are some pics The underside of the grip says "Germany eig Model E357"

PetahW · November 5, 2008, 08:32 PM

Strictly a WAG, but the German firm of Weirauch made .357 revolvers (among others) under the Arminus name for F.I.E.,, who sold it as the "Hombre".

Another large German firm that used to export that type into the US was J.P.Sauer & Sohn, who traded under the "Hawes" brand.

I've never seen that type hammer on an import before - it looks like a transfer bar type. Is it ?

.

SDC · November 5, 2008, 09:00 PM

It was built/proofed in 1968, and it also be a revolver built for EIG by Herbert Schmidt; if you take off the grips, there's likely a name or symbol showing the true manufacturer.

James K · November 5, 2008, 09:12 PM

Eig was an importer of inexpensive firearms in the 1950's and 1960's. I am not sure who made that revolver, but IIRC the frame was cast zinc and the gun had a very short life expectancy. From the trigger position, it appears that either the hammer or the trigger is broken, which would explain the too light trigger pull. IMHO, the gun is dangerous in that condition, but I know of no source for parts, or whether parts from any other single action revolver might fit. In all honesty, I don't think the gun is worth repairing. Those guns sold in $39 price range and generally bring only about $100-150 today in working condition.

Jim

gunner85 · November 6, 2008, 05:02 PM

Thanks for the input so far guys. I took the grips off and found stamped on the frame "Herbert Schmidt model 121"

Jim, the above pic was taken with the hammer at half cocked, i'm not sure if that matters though. I have found a site that sells parts for the hawes model large, and small frame revolvers. When i get time, i'm going to take it apart and see what can be done about the trigger pull. The slide ejector is also broke, I'd like to replace that if possible as well.

Petahw, I'm somewhat revolver illiterate, so I'm not sure what you mean by bar transfer hammer, hopefully this pic will help you out?

PetahW · November 6, 2008, 07:27 PM

Thanks for the "down the throat" pic !

I certainly can see no transfer bar - a part raised by the trigger pull, at the time of hammer release, that sets between the recess in the hammer face (as seen from the side) and the firing pin - thereby providing a concussion connection for firing a cartridge at that particular time only.

Without it in place, the forward nose (on the hammer face's top) rests against the frame above the firing pin, with no FP strike by the hammer possible (when it's fully down).

It seems like that revolver has a transfer bar-type hammer, but no transfer bar (It's usually visible in a pic angle like the last series you posted) - curious.

.

James K · November 6, 2008, 08:44 PM

No, that gun did not have a transfer bar. They use a frame mounted firing pin and the way it is installed necessitates the cut-away hammer. If you look at the picture, you see how far the firing pin is from the breech face. That firing pin housing (cup) is fragile and if the hammer struck it, it would be destroyed. The hammer is cut away so it strikes only the firing pin, and then the top of the hammer impacts the frame before it can hit the firing pin housing.

Jim

Bill DeShivs · November 7, 2008, 01:50 AM

I doubt Hawes parts will fit your gun. Hawes and Schmidt were at opposite ends of the quality spectrum. Hawes firearms were good guns.

ignatz01 · November 11, 2008, 03:28 AM

Hi! Looking to ID an old rifle I found with bayonet - quite long with thick bolt and small clip - there is a crown with a B under it in several places- has bayonet that locks in 1/4 turn. There is a no. 1875 on it - I will try to add an attachment picture - any info is appreciated. bob (ignatz01)

SDC · November 11, 2008, 09:03 AM

Ignatz, your rifle is a Dutch Beaumont-Vitali rifle, made for the Netherlands in the 1880s. These were designed by a Dutchman, Beaumont, who added a box magazine designed by the Italian Vitali, to produce this combination. The rifle's mainspring is located inside the large bolt handle, and they're known to be prone to breakage. The round it fired was known as the 11mm Dutch Remington, or 11.3x45mm. They were replaced by Mannlicher rifles before the turn of the century, and you sometimes see them converted to single-shot shotguns, but still with the 4-round magazine in place.

Hawg · November 11, 2008, 10:46 AM

That gun has a steel frame as did most magnum imports. You can see the alloy parts have turned gray. The hammer notch or the top leg of the trigger where it engages the hammer is worn is why it has a hair trigger. These parts in imports are pretty soft, especially the triggers. You can take a file and reshape the trigger leg to fit the hammer notch and/or deepen the hammer notch. This is just a temporary fix as it will wear again. It might be possible to "fit" a trigger off another brand into it but I doubt you'll ever find a hammer to match it if that's the problem.

November 5, 2008, 06:54 PM	#1
gunner85 Junior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Posts: 7	Help ID this german revolver My father inherited this from his dad. We really don't have much info on it other than it has a hair trigger and is single action, and are wondering if you guys can help us out. Here are some pics The underside of the grip says "Germany eig Model E357"

November 5, 2008, 09:00 PM	#3
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	It was built/proofed in 1968, and it also be a revolver built for EIG by Herbert Schmidt; if you take off the grips, there's likely a name or symbol showing the true manufacturer. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

November 6, 2008, 05:02 PM	#5
gunner85 Junior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Posts: 7	Thanks for the input so far guys. I took the grips off and found stamped on the frame "Herbert Schmidt model 121" Jim, the above pic was taken with the hammer at half cocked, i'm not sure if that matters though. I have found a site that sells parts for the hawes model large, and small frame revolvers. When i get time, i'm going to take it apart and see what can be done about the trigger pull. The slide ejector is also broke, I'd like to replace that if possible as well. Petahw, I'm somewhat revolver illiterate, so I'm not sure what you mean by bar transfer hammer, hopefully this pic will help you out? Last edited by gunner85; November 6, 2008 at 05:12 PM.

November 7, 2008, 01:50 AM	#8
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,988	I doubt Hawes parts will fit your gun. Hawes and Schmidt were at opposite ends of the quality spectrum. Hawes firearms were good guns. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 11, 2008, 09:03 AM	#10
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	Ignatz, your rifle is a Dutch Beaumont-Vitali rifle, made for the Netherlands in the 1880s. These were designed by a Dutchman, Beaumont, who added a box magazine designed by the Italian Vitali, to produce this combination. The rifle's mainspring is located inside the large bolt handle, and they're known to be prone to breakage. The round it fired was known as the 11mm Dutch Remington, or 11.3x45mm. They were replaced by Mannlicher rifles before the turn of the century, and you sometimes see them converted to single-shot shotguns, but still with the 4-round magazine in place. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

November 5, 2008, 08:32 PM	#2
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	Strictly a WAG, but the German firm of Weirauch made .357 revolvers (among others) under the Arminus name for F.I.E.,, who sold it as the "Hombre". Another large German firm that used to export that type into the US was J.P.Sauer & Sohn, who traded under the "Hawes" brand. I've never seen that type hammer on an import before - it looks like a transfer bar type. Is it ? .

November 5, 2008, 09:12 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Eig was an importer of inexpensive firearms in the 1950's and 1960's. I am not sure who made that revolver, but IIRC the frame was cast zinc and the gun had a very short life expectancy. From the trigger position, it appears that either the hammer or the trigger is broken, which would explain the too light trigger pull. IMHO, the gun is dangerous in that condition, but I know of no source for parts, or whether parts from any other single action revolver might fit. In all honesty, I don't think the gun is worth repairing. Those guns sold in $39 price range and generally bring only about $100-150 today in working condition. Jim

November 6, 2008, 07:27 PM	#6
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	Thanks for the "down the throat" pic ! I certainly can see no transfer bar - a part raised by the trigger pull, at the time of hammer release, that sets between the recess in the hammer face (as seen from the side) and the firing pin - thereby providing a concussion connection for firing a cartridge at that particular time only. Without it in place, the forward nose (on the hammer face's top) rests against the frame above the firing pin, with no FP strike by the hammer possible (when it's fully down). It seems like that revolver has a transfer bar-type hammer, but no transfer bar (It's usually visible in a pic angle like the last series you posted) - curious. .

November 6, 2008, 08:44 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	No, that gun did not have a transfer bar. They use a frame mounted firing pin and the way it is installed necessitates the cut-away hammer. If you look at the picture, you see how far the firing pin is from the breech face. That firing pin housing (cup) is fragile and if the hammer struck it, it would be destroyed. The hammer is cut away so it strikes only the firing pin, and then the top of the hammer impacts the frame before it can hit the firing pin housing. Jim

November 11, 2008, 10:46 AM	#11
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	That gun has a steel frame as did most magnum imports. You can see the alloy parts have turned gray. The hammer notch or the top leg of the trigger where it engages the hammer is worn is why it has a hair trigger. These parts in imports are pretty soft, especially the triggers. You can take a file and reshape the trigger leg to fit the hammer notch and/or deepen the hammer notch. This is just a temporary fix as it will wear again. It might be possible to "fit" a trigger off another brand into it but I doubt you'll ever find a hammer to match it if that's the problem.