Frankford Arsenal Universal Bullet Seater Die Uasers?

USAF Ret · February 21, 2023, 10:42 PM

Anyone use the Frankford Arsenal Universal Seating Die system? I have an RCBS Rock Chucker. Looks like it would be helpful in more accurately adjusting seating depth.

Shadow9mm · February 22, 2023, 08:31 AM

I have one. I use it regularly. There are a few small quirks, but over all it is great and I would highly recommend it.

My main issue is with some bullets, specifically, ones that are not particularly pointy, using the feed window, do not feed well. However you can still set the bullet on the case and feed from the bottom without issue. Or with my progressive I start the bullets in my regular seater in 1 stage, and finish seating with the frankford as the final seating step.

My main concern was that is was my first time using a micrometer die and I was not sure if it would be accurate or not. After a fair bit of measuring, and double checking my work, I found the hash marks to be dead on with my calipers measurements.

USAF Ret · February 22, 2023, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

I have one. I use it regularly. There are a few small quirks, but over all it is great and I would highly recommend it.

My main issue is with some bullets, specifically, ones that are not particularly pointy, using the feed window, do not feed well. However you can still set the bullet on the case and feed from the bottom without issue. Or with my progressive I start the bullets in my regular seater in 1 stage, and finish seating with the frankford as the final seating step.

My main concern was that is was my first time using a micrometer die and I was not sure if it would be accurate or not. After a fair bit of measuring, and double checking my work, I found the hash marks to be dead on with my calipers measurements.

Thanks, Jon.

**Unclenick** · February 22, 2023, 04:52 PM

I suggest reading this article about some seating die tests.

Shadow9mm · February 22, 2023, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

I suggest reading this article about some seating die tests.

I know run-out does have an effect on loads, but I also always understood that the effect is minimal in the grand scheme of things. I don't have any tools to measure run-out. I have a hard time justifying buying the expensive tools so I can buy more expensive dies in the hopes that they provide reduced run out to gain a fraction of a moa of difference. I have been able to get sub moa groups and have never measured. But I am always trying to learn as well.

Johnnies reloading bench did a test on dies in relation to concentricity. Surprisingly the lee performed best if I remember correctly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIK5wq5vuSU

F-class John just did a video on run out. Found some interesting stuff doing some crazy run out between 0.003 to 0.045https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m8Y6ZmSBiU

I did read the article. interesting stuff. However based on Hornady's podcast here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yZyXwy40JM to be statistically significant you need to shoot about 20rnds. in this case only 10rnds were fired. And I personally feel testing with a bagged gun with an optic would have removed some variables compared to prone with iron sights.

**Unclenick** · February 22, 2023, 07:26 PM

Well, actually, I was aiming that at USAF Ret, since he raised the question about a seating die, and I wanted to provide some food for thought.

There is no blanket truth about the effect. If you have followed any of the stuff from Hornady or others on jacket symmetry and out-of-balance bullets, the effect of bullet tilt is exactly the same. It depends on the bullet design and how far forward of the geometric center of the bearing surface the particular design's center of gravity is. Opening of groups by up to 1.25 moa has been documented with long, short bearing surface bullets (the old National Match M1 Type, as demonstrated by A. A. Abbatiello in TAR) and as little as about a fifth of that for a short ogive flat base bullet in 6 PPC (Harold Vaughn's demo).

Whether you measure concentricity or not doesn't affect what it does on paper, so measurement isn't required, but it is probably desirable to mitigate what you can by whatever loading methods you use. I have more than one concentricity measuring device, and thus far, have not been able to get the Lee to perform up to the Redding–that sort of thing depends on the bullet and brass and other details–but I can get extremely close if I add in the step of using a Lyman M-die to put the little step in the mouth that gets the bullet to start straight into the die. Indeed, I've gotten my old RCBS standard seater to do just as well that way.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

Shadow9mm · February 22, 2023, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Well, actually, I was aiming that at USAF Ret, since he raised the question about a seating die, and I wanted to provide some food for thought.

There is no blanket truth about the effect. If you have followed any of the stuff from Hornady or others on jacket symmetry and out-of-balance bullets, the effect of bullet tilt is exactly the same. It depends on the bullet design and how far forward of the geometric center of the bearing surface the particular design's center of gravity is. Opening of groups by up to 1.25 moa has been documented with long, short bearing surface bullets (the old National Match M1 Type, as demonstrated by A. A. Abbatiello in TAR) and as little as about a fifth of that for a short ogive flat base bullet in 6 PPC (Harold Vaughn's demo).

Whether you measure concentricity or not doesn't affect what it does on paper, so measurement isn't required, but it is probably desirable to mitigate what you can by whatever loading methods you use. I have more than one concentricity measuring device, and thus far, have not been able to get the Lee to perform up to the Redding–that sort of thing depends on the bullet and brass and other details–but I can get extremely close if I add in the step of using a Lyman M-die to put the little step in the mouth that gets the bullet to start straight into the die. Indeed, I've gotten my old RCBS standard seater to do just as well that way.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

I have been following hornady's podcasts of late. Have learned some really interesting stuff. I actually sent the OP the most recent one in dispersion as I thought he might find it interesting.

Hornady noted that several things can cause issues in relation to concentricity of the bullet in the barrel. From the center of gravity of the bullet being off due to manufacturing. To fouling in the bore causing it to not ride straight. To the barrel being bored unevenly, and when heated, allowing unburn powder to lodge on the bearing surface.

What I got out of F-class Johns video was, that with a good bullet, a well tuned load, and a good modern barrel, concentricity of the load is somewhat of a moot point unless you mess it up on purpose.

I was aiming at USAF retired as well. As I understand it he is trying to work up some practical hunting loads with limited components and wanted less trial and error in his seating depth adjustments. His question was about whether or not it would be useful for him to help him adjust his seating depth more easily. I have one, so I answered my with though on the die set and its adjustment. not sure exactly how we got on the topic of concentricity.

USAF Ret · February 22, 2023, 10:29 PM

Got it in my Amazon cart ready for payday. I think having the dials to set seating depth with the OAL gauge measuring ogive will be very helpful.

**Unclenick** · February 22, 2023, 10:59 PM

General hunting ammo has been loaded successfully on every kind of loading equipment made since the nineteenth century. Lee Loaders are especially economical for a hunting season-only cartridge you don't fire more than a handful of times a year. But seeking better seating adjustment control says you are looking to explore beyond that. In that case, why not have a look to compare features and their effects?

F-class John does a couple of things that confuse the issue a bit. One is that he is using very long bearing surface bullets. The longer the bullet bearing surface, the more entry into the bore straightens it into alignment with the bore axis. So his bullets are intrinsically more immune to being affected by bullet tilt than shorter ones are. The other thing, which is related, is the grossly tilted bullets he loaded brought nothing to the party. Even Abbatiello found nothing much over 0.004" tip tilt (0.008" TIR) had any additional effect on dispersion. It's the limit even for that sub-caliber bearing surface bullet, beyond which any additional initial tilt is straightened by entry into the bore. The bottom line is that whether you need to worry very much about concentricity depends on the bullet and the amount of dispersion contribution your type of shooting can tolerate.

USAF Ret · February 22, 2023, 11:11 PM

Not sure about all the other conversation, but I like the idea of having the dial for measurement vs turning the screwdriver and guesstimating.

**Unclenick** · February 22, 2023, 11:20 PM

It's a very convenient feature. Redding even makes a separate micrometer adjustment knob to retrofit their standard seaters that didn't come with one. It seems to me there were some other aftermarket ones for RCBS and other brands at one time, and may still be. One could certainly be made for the Lee dead length die, though unless you made it of very soft aluminum, it would not break loose like the Lee adjustment knob does if you accidentally jam something in too hard. But I'm not convinced that break-away feature is really needed in a seater anyway.

jetinteriorguy · February 23, 2023, 05:58 AM

I’ve had good results with mine. IME it works as good as my Forster’s and I really love the side window feeding. Unfortunately it wouldn’t work with the one caliber I sort of bought it for, 7.62x39, but with everything else it’s good.

zeke · February 23, 2023, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

I know run-out does have an effect on loads, but I also always understood that the effect is minimal in the grand scheme of things. I don't have any tools to measure run-out. I have a hard time justifying buying the expensive tools so I can buy more expensive dies in the hopes that they provide reduced run out to gain a fraction of a moa of difference. I have been able to get sub moa groups and have never measured. But I am always trying to learn as well.

Johnnies reloading bench did a test on dies in relation to concentricity. Surprisingly the lee performed best if I remember correctly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIK5wq5vuSU

F-class John just did a video on run out. Found some interesting stuff doing some crazy run out between 0.003 to 0.045https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m8Y6ZmSBiU

I did read the article. interesting stuff. However based on Hornady's podcast here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yZyXwy40JM to be statistically significant you need to shoot about 20rnds. in this case only 10rnds were fired. And I personally feel testing with a bagged gun with an optic would have removed some variables compared to prone with iron sights.

A flat piece of glass or counter top can be used to see some degree of run out. Unless your brass is really mauled. Get your eyes down to surface level and roll a loaded round by. If you see some wobble, you may be able to improve the concentricity of your loaded rounds.

This works surprisingly well, and is FREE. Redding Comp seater dies enabled me to produce rounds with no discernible run out.

GeauxTide · February 25, 2023, 08:09 AM

Really like mine.

USAF Ret · February 26, 2023, 12:46 AM

Just used mine for the first time tonight. Loading 308 with about 8 different seating depths I am testing. Saves so much time. It was a good purchase. Thanks all.

Shadow9mm · February 26, 2023, 03:19 AM

Glad you like it. Its a great value with all the different sizes being included in one set.

USAF Ret · February 26, 2023, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Glad you like it. Its a great value with all the different sizes being included in one set.

Just wish my testing was better. But, you know that.

berettaprofessor · February 26, 2023, 07:54 PM

I have one and have used it for loading cartridges that I don't have separate sets for; works but didn't see an improvement over runout vs. Lee dies.

Shadow9mm · February 26, 2023, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USAF Ret

Just wish my testing was better. But, you know that.

All good things in time

markr6754 · March 7, 2023, 02:53 PM

Love this...have pretty much abandoned all other rifle seating dies..even those few with micrometers. As @Shadow9MM observed, some bullets take some finesse getting the meplat into the seating stem. I've learned to raise and lower (just slightly) the ram until the tip aligns to the stem. This issue is not observed in flat bottom bullets.

Using it for 300 BLK, 6mm ARC, 6.8 SPC, .223 Rem, and .224 Valkyrie

February 21, 2023, 10:42 PM	#1
USAF Ret Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2017 Posts: 809	Frankford Arsenal Universal Bullet Seater Die Uasers? Anyone use the Frankford Arsenal Universal Seating Die system? I have an RCBS Rock Chucker. Looks like it would be helpful in more accurately adjusting seating depth.

February 22, 2023, 08:31 AM	#2
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,977	I have one. I use it regularly. There are a few small quirks, but over all it is great and I would highly recommend it. My main issue is with some bullets, specifically, ones that are not particularly pointy, using the feed window, do not feed well. However you can still set the bullet on the case and feed from the bottom without issue. Or with my progressive I start the bullets in my regular seater in 1 stage, and finish seating with the frankford as the final seating step. My main concern was that is was my first time using a micrometer die and I was not sure if it would be accurate or not. After a fair bit of measuring, and double checking my work, I found the hash marks to be dead on with my calipers measurements. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload. Last edited by Shadow9mm; February 22, 2023 at 08:36 AM.

February 22, 2023, 04:52 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I suggest reading this article about some seating die tests. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 22, 2023, 07:26 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Well, actually, I was aiming that at USAF Ret, since he raised the question about a seating die, and I wanted to provide some food for thought. There is no blanket truth about the effect. If you have followed any of the stuff from Hornady or others on jacket symmetry and out-of-balance bullets, the effect of bullet tilt is exactly the same. It depends on the bullet design and how far forward of the geometric center of the bearing surface the particular design's center of gravity is. Opening of groups by up to 1.25 moa has been documented with long, short bearing surface bullets (the old National Match M1 Type, as demonstrated by A. A. Abbatiello in TAR) and as little as about a fifth of that for a short ogive flat base bullet in 6 PPC (Harold Vaughn's demo). Whether you measure concentricity or not doesn't affect what it does on paper, so measurement isn't required, but it is probably desirable to mitigate what you can by whatever loading methods you use. I have more than one concentricity measuring device, and thus far, have not been able to get the Lee to perform up to the Redding–that sort of thing depends on the bullet and brass and other details–but I can get extremely close if I add in the step of using a Lyman M-die to put the little step in the mouth that gets the bullet to start straight into the die. Indeed, I've gotten my old RCBS standard seater to do just as well that way. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 22, 2023, 10:59 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	General hunting ammo has been loaded successfully on every kind of loading equipment made since the nineteenth century. Lee Loaders are especially economical for a hunting season-only cartridge you don't fire more than a handful of times a year. But seeking better seating adjustment control says you are looking to explore beyond that. In that case, why not have a look to compare features and their effects? F-class John does a couple of things that confuse the issue a bit. One is that he is using very long bearing surface bullets. The longer the bullet bearing surface, the more entry into the bore straightens it into alignment with the bore axis. So his bullets are intrinsically more immune to being affected by bullet tilt than shorter ones are. The other thing, which is related, is the grossly tilted bullets he loaded brought nothing to the party. Even Abbatiello found nothing much over 0.004" tip tilt (0.008" TIR) had any additional effect on dispersion. It's the limit even for that sub-caliber bearing surface bullet, beyond which any additional initial tilt is straightened by entry into the bore. The bottom line is that whether you need to worry very much about concentricity depends on the bullet and the amount of dispersion contribution your type of shooting can tolerate. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 22, 2023, 10:29 PM	#8
USAF Ret Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2017 Posts: 809	Got it in my Amazon cart ready for payday. I think having the dials to set seating depth with the OAL gauge measuring ogive will be very helpful.

February 22, 2023, 11:11 PM	#10
USAF Ret Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2017 Posts: 809	Not sure about all the other conversation, but I like the idea of having the dial for measurement vs turning the screwdriver and guesstimating.

February 22, 2023, 11:20 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It's a very convenient feature. Redding even makes a separate micrometer adjustment knob to retrofit their standard seaters that didn't come with one. It seems to me there were some other aftermarket ones for RCBS and other brands at one time, and may still be. One could certainly be made for the Lee dead length die, though unless you made it of very soft aluminum, it would not break loose like the Lee adjustment knob does if you accidentally jam something in too hard. But I'm not convinced that break-away feature is really needed in a seater anyway. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 23, 2023, 05:58 AM	#12
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,179	I’ve had good results with mine. IME it works as good as my Forster’s and I really love the side window feeding. Unfortunately it wouldn’t work with the one caliber I sort of bought it for, 7.62x39, but with everything else it’s good.

February 25, 2023, 08:09 AM	#14
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	Really like mine. __________________ Reloading For: 223R, 243W, 6.5 GR, 6.5 CM, 260R, 6.5-06, 280R, 7mmRM, 300HAM'R, 308W, 30-06, 338-06, 9mm, 357M, 41M, 44SPL, 44M, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 450BM.

February 26, 2023, 12:46 AM	#15
USAF Ret Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2017 Posts: 809	Just used mine for the first time tonight. Loading 308 with about 8 different seating depths I am testing. Saves so much time. It was a good purchase. Thanks all.

February 26, 2023, 03:19 AM	#16
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,977	Glad you like it. Its a great value with all the different sizes being included in one set. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

February 26, 2023, 07:54 PM	#18
berettaprofessor Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2008 Posts: 1,091	I have one and have used it for loading cartridges that I don't have separate sets for; works but didn't see an improvement over runout vs. Lee dies. __________________ "What most people forget is that the first country the Nazi's conquered was their own." 44AMP on thefiringline.com

March 7, 2023, 02:53 PM	#20
markr6754 Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2018 Location: Centerville, OH Posts: 347	Love this...have pretty much abandoned all other rifle seating dies..even those few with micrometers. As @Shadow9MM observed, some bullets take some finesse getting the meplat into the seating stem. I've learned to raise and lower (just slightly) the ram until the tip aligns to the stem. This issue is not observed in flat bottom bullets. Using it for 300 BLK, 6mm ARC, 6.8 SPC, .223 Rem, and .224 Valkyrie __________________ “Draw me not without reason, sheath me not without honor.”