Shooting in Long Beach Federal Building

MLeake · February 17, 2012, 01:57 AM

In a bizarre incident, an ICE agent opened fire on and wounded another ICE agent. A third agent shot and killed the shooter.

Without meaning to make light of a tragedy, I am curious to see whether the antis try to make any use of the incident, or instead try to pretend it didn't happen.

I'm not sure if they'd get more mileage out of "even trained professional LEOs can't be trusted" than they'd take in damage for showing that sometimes, even trained professional LEOs can't be trusted...

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/02/16...h-federal.html

TheGoldenState · February 17, 2012, 02:49 AM

Last I heard was a ICE agent was in dispute with his superior, and reacted by opening fire (victim 1). A second ICE agent intervened and was also shot (victim 2). One of the two, or both, victim ICE agents returned fire killing the ICE agent suspect. Victim 2 is "stable" at hospital.

Crazy story, indeed. I've never heard anything like it. Talk about hating your boss.

FrankenMauser · February 17, 2012, 02:53 AM

Strange...

But, this statement supports TheGoldenState's comments:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas City Star

Martinez characterized the incident as a case of workplace violence involving two federal agents. He says one agent fired several rounds at another agent, wounding him. At that point, another agent intervened and additional rounds were fired, resulting in the death of the shooter.

(Emphasis mine.)

SwampYankee · February 17, 2012, 08:13 AM

Well, I guess it's time to take all the guns away from law enforcement agents...

Every agency my brother has ever worked for (3 different ones) required extensive psychological testing. We've all got a breaking point but shooting a colleague/boss in the office, even if he is a jerk? I wonder if there were any subtle signs from the shooter before he lost it? I suspect that there will be some ridiculous knee-jerk reaction to this from the ICE administration. Maybe a "check-your-guns-at-the-door" policy?

Uncle Buck · February 17, 2012, 08:39 AM

Interesting. Tag.

ltc444 · February 17, 2012, 05:59 PM

Not a new problem among Federal Law Enforcement Agencies.

There was a similiar incident in the New Orleans ATF Office in the mid 70s. Two agents had long standing issues with each other and proceeded to shoot it out in the office.

Never heard what the outcome of this High Noon encounter was. ATF hushed it up pretty good.

ClydeFrog · February 17, 2012, 09:52 PM

This is a bit off topic, but a few years ago I saw a PBS special where a FBI special agent who had a major dispute with another FBI special agent over racial issues wound up working with the exact same FBI agent in the Chicago IL field office!
This to me showed some gross mismanagement by the DoJ & the upper level of the FBI.

CNN had a interesting item in recent years too where a ATF special agent explained many of the problems in that federal LE agency.

I looked into working for the INS & later ICE in the mid 2000s with the VRA(veteran's re-adjustment act) program but could not meet a few of the vision & medical requirements.
This is a big shock to see sworn LE agents were involved. An armed, off duty ICE agent was also shot & killed by the violent prisoner who escaped from the Atlanta GA court building. The veteran ICE agent was fixing his truck and got shot by the spree killer/prison inmate.

teeroux · February 17, 2012, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Not a new problem among Federal Law Enforcement Agencies

Well lets just say a case where Officer 1 and his wife work for X agency and Officer 2 of same X agency has an affair with Officer 1's wife and their mariage ends. Its not right but I can see how bullets could fly. Especially if Officer 2 is Officer 1's supervisor. It does happen.

medalguy · February 18, 2012, 12:48 AM

I always hate to hear of anyone injured in a shooting of any kind, but this one really kinda blows away the theory long promoted by so many antis that only the police are properly trained in handling of firearms and ordinary citizens should not be entrusted to have them.

vranasaurus · February 18, 2012, 02:09 AM

Not too long ago a Soldier killed his supervisor who was counseling him for being over weight.

mete · February 18, 2012, 05:20 AM

Have you all forgotten "going postal" ? Much of this type of problem is casued by managers not taking care of problems in the early stages .Another cause is creating a hostile environment.

SwampYankee · February 18, 2012, 06:30 AM

Ah, but Postal workers are not trained, expected or allowed to carry weapons at work or in their official capacity. You assume that if the "government" gives someone the power to carry a weapon legally and use it to enforce the law against the rest of us peons, he won't open up on his buddies. :roll eyes:

I suspect this is one of those cases where the antis will just ignore it. They want the law to have firearms. They don't want us to have firearms. This doesn't prove anything for them. It may, in fact, hurt their case that "we" can't be trusted and only LEOs should be armed. It demonstrates that people are people, no matter how much trust you place in them. That kind of common sense is antithetical to gun control.

alloy · February 18, 2012, 08:50 AM

FOX crawl listed the event as an arguement over a employee review or evaluation, with the surviving supervisor suffering 6 bullet wounds.

**44 AMP** · February 18, 2012, 02:15 PM

Individuals snap. Ones in high stress jobs are more likely to. Its a known (and usually publically ignored) fact of life. Psych evals and counciling only work part of the time. And then only when the individual recognizes a problem and wants help.

Trained professionals screw up all the time. Even they are, after all, human. And, outside of the training, no better or worse than you or I. But the public perception is that having the training, and a badge of some sort makes them infallible. It certainly doesn't, but that's a different issue, or is it?

IIRC, in nearly 80 years the only crime committed with a legally owned full auto firearm was done by a police officer who owned it.

Our entertainment industry if full of stories about cops/govt agents gone bad, not entirely without some basis in reality. In this case, it seems to be an individual snapped (bad review from supervisor?) and went for his gun. Think what might have been the result if he had flipped out on the street, instead of in the Fed bldg, with other armed agents close by to stop him.

Rembrandt · February 18, 2012, 04:52 PM

Agreed that people handle pressure differently, obviously screening helps but isn't always fool proof.

Jake on season 3 of Top Shot showed how people with extraordinary training and accomplishments sometimes don't have "basic people skills" when interacting with colleagues or other competitors. Here's a former Navy Seal that couldn't play well with the others and flipped out...packed his bag and went home because of the pressure of failing. Now he coaches football mentoring to youngsters....go figure.

trex1310 · February 18, 2012, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Crazy story, indeed. I've never heard anything like it. Talk about hating your boss.

You must not of heard of the Post Office.

youngunz4life · February 18, 2012, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Crazy story, indeed. I've never heard anything like it

It happened at another agency(during 1990's, possibly later decade) prompting metal detectors after the event. It also happened not too long ago in the Army. I know the second example isn't the same, but it had a lot of similarities.

**44 AMP** · February 19, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

It happened at another agency(during 1990's, possibly later decade) prompting metal detectors after the event.

There is a perfect example of a knee jerk reaction. Metal detectors make us so much safer!

Armed Federal Agent. Either bypasses the detectors or gets a pass with his badge, like every other officially armed on duty person.

I think, by now, don't all major Fed office buildings have detectors? Of course, in this case, it would have made no difference at all.

rburch · February 19, 2012, 04:27 PM

Not making light of a tragic situation, but I find it really interesting how a case of workplace violence ends with the shooter dead, and one victim wounded. Just because someone else in the building was armed.

Update I read last night, said another Agent rushed in when the shooting started. He wrestled with the shooter trying to take the gun away from him, but then at some point in the struggle he drew his own weapon and used it to stop the attack.

MTT TL · February 20, 2012, 08:14 AM

I know of two majors who drew down on each other on the basketball court in Iraq. They had never gotten along and things were getting high stress. No one was hurt but they sent them to Kuwait to drive buses and count Milvans for a year. (as well getting an "I love you not" letter from the CG in their file).

People flip out under high stress even ones who are supposed to be highly trained. I have seen this other times as well.

This is the fourth LEO shot in California by other LEOs this year.

**44 AMP** · February 21, 2012, 12:34 AM

Quote:

This is the fourth LEO shot in California by other LEOs this year.

And it isn't even the end of February!

I haven't been following the news real close, so this many is a shock.

ClydeFrog · February 22, 2012, 12:43 AM

Another point I wanted to make in this topic is that not all violent crimes occur in LE offices or areas just by cops/special agents.
A armed gang member ran directly into a large squad room and opened fire on several on duty detectives and crime witnesses. This was in Washington DC in the early 1990s. The same incident was re-enacted in a scene for the police drama Homicide in the late 1990s.
A more recent LE shooting took place in Detroit MI, where a armed nut-case fired directly at uniformed, on duty Detroit police officers in a lobby area.

Spree shootings or "suicide by cop" events are going up nationwide.
FBI data shows that the overall # of sworn LE officers killed by firearms increased 12%.

ClydeFrog

February 17, 2012, 01:57 AM	#1
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Shooting in Long Beach Federal Building In a bizarre incident, an ICE agent opened fire on and wounded another ICE agent. A third agent shot and killed the shooter. Without meaning to make light of a tragedy, I am curious to see whether the antis try to make any use of the incident, or instead try to pretend it didn't happen. I'm not sure if they'd get more mileage out of "even trained professional LEOs can't be trusted" than they'd take in damage for showing that sometimes, even trained professional LEOs can't be trusted... http://www.kansascity.com/2012/02/16...h-federal.html

February 17, 2012, 02:49 AM	#2
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	Last I heard was a ICE agent was in dispute with his superior, and reacted by opening fire (victim 1). A second ICE agent intervened and was also shot (victim 2). One of the two, or both, victim ICE agents returned fire killing the ICE agent suspect. Victim 2 is "stable" at hospital. Crazy story, indeed. I've never heard anything like it. Talk about hating your boss. __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...

February 17, 2012, 08:39 AM	#5
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Interesting. Tag. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

February 17, 2012, 09:52 PM	#7
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Off topic; FBI... This is a bit off topic, but a few years ago I saw a PBS special where a FBI special agent who had a major dispute with another FBI special agent over racial issues wound up working with the exact same FBI agent in the Chicago IL field office! This to me showed some gross mismanagement by the DoJ & the upper level of the FBI. CNN had a interesting item in recent years too where a ATF special agent explained many of the problems in that federal LE agency. I looked into working for the INS & later ICE in the mid 2000s with the VRA(veteran's re-adjustment act) program but could not meet a few of the vision & medical requirements. This is a big shock to see sworn LE agents were involved. An armed, off duty ICE agent was also shot & killed by the violent prisoner who escaped from the Atlanta GA court building. The veteran ICE agent was fixing his truck and got shot by the spree killer/prison inmate.

February 18, 2012, 05:20 AM	#11
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Have you all forgotten "going postal" ? Much of this type of problem is casued by managers not taking care of problems in the early stages .Another cause is creating a hostile environment. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

February 17, 2012, 08:13 AM	#4
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	Well, I guess it's time to take all the guns away from law enforcement agents... Every agency my brother has ever worked for (3 different ones) required extensive psychological testing. We've all got a breaking point but shooting a colleague/boss in the office, even if he is a jerk? I wonder if there were any subtle signs from the shooter before he lost it? I suspect that there will be some ridiculous knee-jerk reaction to this from the ICE administration. Maybe a "check-your-guns-at-the-door" policy?

February 17, 2012, 05:59 PM	#6
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	Not a new problem among Federal Law Enforcement Agencies. There was a similiar incident in the New Orleans ATF Office in the mid 70s. Two agents had long standing issues with each other and proceeded to shoot it out in the office. Never heard what the outcome of this High Noon encounter was. ATF hushed it up pretty good.

February 18, 2012, 12:48 AM	#9
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,033	I always hate to hear of anyone injured in a shooting of any kind, but this one really kinda blows away the theory long promoted by so many antis that only the police are properly trained in handling of firearms and ordinary citizens should not be entrusted to have them.

February 18, 2012, 02:09 AM	#10
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	Not too long ago a Soldier killed his supervisor who was counseling him for being over weight.

February 18, 2012, 06:30 AM	#12
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	Ah, but Postal workers are not trained, expected or allowed to carry weapons at work or in their official capacity. You assume that if the "government" gives someone the power to carry a weapon legally and use it to enforce the law against the rest of us peons, he won't open up on his buddies. :roll eyes: I suspect this is one of those cases where the antis will just ignore it. They want the law to have firearms. They don't want us to have firearms. This doesn't prove anything for them. It may, in fact, hurt their case that "we" can't be trusted and only LEOs should be armed. It demonstrates that people are people, no matter how much trust you place in them. That kind of common sense is antithetical to gun control.

February 18, 2012, 02:15 PM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,849	Individuals snap. Ones in high stress jobs are more likely to. Its a known (and usually publically ignored) fact of life. Psych evals and counciling only work part of the time. And then only when the individual recognizes a problem and wants help. Trained professionals screw up all the time. Even they are, after all, human. And, outside of the training, no better or worse than you or I. But the public perception is that having the training, and a badge of some sort makes them infallible. It certainly doesn't, but that's a different issue, or is it? IIRC, in nearly 80 years the only crime committed with a legally owned full auto firearm was done by a police officer who owned it. Our entertainment industry if full of stories about cops/govt agents gone bad, not entirely without some basis in reality. In this case, it seems to be an individual snapped (bad review from supervisor?) and went for his gun. Think what might have been the result if he had flipped out on the street, instead of in the Fed bldg, with other armed agents close by to stop him. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 18, 2012, 04:52 PM	#15
Rembrandt Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2002 Posts: 2,108	Agreed that people handle pressure differently, obviously screening helps but isn't always fool proof. Jake on season 3 of Top Shot showed how people with extraordinary training and accomplishments sometimes don't have "basic people skills" when interacting with colleagues or other competitors. Here's a former Navy Seal that couldn't play well with the others and flipped out...packed his bag and went home because of the pressure of failing. Now he coaches football mentoring to youngsters....go figure.

February 19, 2012, 04:27 PM	#19
rburch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Blacksburg VA Posts: 750	Not making light of a tragic situation, but I find it really interesting how a case of workplace violence ends with the shooter dead, and one victim wounded. Just because someone else in the building was armed. Update I read last night, said another Agent rushed in when the shooting started. He wrestled with the shooter trying to take the gun away from him, but then at some point in the struggle he drew his own weapon and used it to stop the attack. __________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

February 20, 2012, 08:14 AM	#20
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	I know of two majors who drew down on each other on the basketball court in Iraq. They had never gotten along and things were getting high stress. No one was hurt but they sent them to Kuwait to drive buses and count Milvans for a year. (as well getting an "I love you not" letter from the CG in their file). People flip out under high stress even ones who are supposed to be highly trained. I have seen this other times as well. This is the fourth LEO shot in California by other LEOs this year. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

February 22, 2012, 12:43 AM	#22
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	NBC's Homicide, DC Metro, lethal force incidents... Another point I wanted to make in this topic is that not all violent crimes occur in LE offices or areas just by cops/special agents. A armed gang member ran directly into a large squad room and opened fire on several on duty detectives and crime witnesses. This was in Washington DC in the early 1990s. The same incident was re-enacted in a scene for the police drama Homicide in the late 1990s. A more recent LE shooting took place in Detroit MI, where a armed nut-case fired directly at uniformed, on duty Detroit police officers in a lobby area. Spree shootings or "suicide by cop" events are going up nationwide. FBI data shows that the overall # of sworn LE officers killed by firearms increased 12%. ClydeFrog